Avatar Military Wankers Read This First

[Zixinus]

May I bring another small point (perhaps afficed to point six)1:

#x The Na'Vi won! They overcome a superior military force, that's stupid!

Answer: They did not overcome anything. Before the VERY PLANET intervened, the Na'Vi were about to be slaughtered by the very-real superior military power they were faced. That's actually part of the tragedy implied in the film.

If it weren't for the massive wave of animals attacking the RDA troops, the Na'Vi would have had their Holy Tree bombed, despite their immense resistance.

The Na'Vi are not a superior military force, nor were they depicted as such. Yes, they brought down SOME losses on the the RDA, but more out of surprise and trying to use the terrain to their advantage than by their own military strength. And this military strength was not half-assed either, they were called to arms with essentially their equivalent of Jesus (or at least, a Messiah), several tribes have gathered and joined the fighting, easily outnumbering not only the military forces of the RDA but the RDA itself.

Yet the RDA would have still won if it weren't for the foreshadowed Deus Ex Machinaca. Even with all the "flaws" of the equipment they had, even with gaps in their equipment (no artillery, no anti-air emplacements, no heavy armour, etc), even being greatly outnumbered, the the RDA would have won.

THAT is why the argument about faulty equipment is moot. You can talk about morality till the cows come home, you can dream about what they should have done (or even what they should have had) till you cum, you can talk about the faults of the Na'Vi until your throat is sore, it doesn't matter: the film clearly told that the Na'Vi were losing.

[Guardsman Bass]

The stuff on Pandorapedia is basically a more limited version of the stuff in this tie-in book that was released.

[NecronLord]

It may be overblown, but so far everything I've read review-wise seems to indicate the movie portrays the Na'vi as better than humans because of Gaian-earth-worship crap, rather than any moral superiority due to unwillingness to genocide.

So you've not seen the film? A bunch of human scientists are depicted as every iota as morally worthy as the Na'vi, if not more so.

One thing though, is that, AFAIK, it's never actually clear on whether the first time the Na'vi met the humans, they (Na'vi) attacked them (humans) first, or if it was peaceful.

Addressed in the OP. In "Avatar Human-Wank Argument #3: The Na’vi Started It, Savages!"

[NecronLord]

I can't remember if I've expressed any views (let alone strong ones) about Avatar's plot, but I'm puzzled as to what this "Pandorapedia" stuff is, and whether it should be assumed to have any validity. A google search indicates its either a wiki linked to the official website or something off the Avatar game. Neither fills me with confidence.

It's not a wiki, it's a bonus included on the Blu-Ray, supposedly an edited form of James Cameron's notes.

A reduced online version exists as a marketing tool, too.

It has an introduction video narrated by Sigourney Weaver, and the whole thing is generally supposed to be canonical. As mentioned above, derivative works have been handed a copy and told not to vary from it.



Link

As for being from 'official' material - well maybe its worth shit, maybe it isn't - it just bothers me that so many arguments about Avatars plot are being resolved by stuff that only a tiny minority of people would ever actually be arsed reading. Its very Star Wars in that way, though worse.

Well, I certainly aim to avoid making any argument dependent on it here; and only bring it in once film evidence is used.

[NecronLord]

May I bring another small point (perhaps afficed to point six)1:

In it goes, thanks!

[mr friendly guy]

A few thoughts

Avatar Human-Wank Argument #1: Nuke the Site From Orbit, It’s the Only Way to be Sure

While NL used the link from the wikia, from the official website it pretty much mentioned RDA was not allowed to develop WMDs. This was known BEFORE the movie was even screened. But that didn't stop the military wankers sprouting off. We could also link to the official website and point out that this is old news.

Avatar Human-Wank Argument #2: Earth needs the resources/Earth is Dying

There are a few variations from this.
1. Earth definitely needs this, because unobtanium is expensive, thus it must be essential. Some idiot used that in the original Avatar review thread.
a)The fact is, lots of things are expensive, but not essentially, like that $100 000 car, or that flat screen television. Expensive /= essential.

b)Earth was still chugging along without unobtanium, suggesting they need it is dubious at best.

c) Not once did Selfridge say anything along the lines of Earth needs it to survive. One would think if it was important he should mention it. Instead all we hear from him is talk of profit, and the share holders disliking a bad quarterly report.

But lets give the military wankers a little. Lets say it is essential to Earth There is still no need to take it from Hometree. Military wankers quite happily say that the Na'vi's village was the only place. This is clearly incorrect because Selfridge produces a piece of unobtanium early in the film saying “this little grey rock sells for $$$”. You guys remember, that scene from the trailer. Clearly they do have other sources. Its even worse when he says Hometree is the most valuable (but not only) source 200 clicks from base.

Avatar Human-Wank Argument #5: The protagonists are traitors to humanity.
The original V miniseries demolishes this quite well. In it the Visitors invade earth to steal our water and to use us for food. The main protagonist is Mike Donovan played by Marc Singer. During the series we learn that some of the aliens don't agree with the actions of their leaders, and make up part of the Fifth Column to help humanity. During the story Donovan's son is brainwashed by the Visitors and there is a telling scene.

In it, the son asks his father, “Aren't the Fifth Column traitors to their people.”

Donovan's reply was “What their people are doing is wrong.”

The sad thing is there are people who subscribe to this follow orders no matter what bullshit, which is actually typical of military wankers.

Avatar Human-Wank Argument #6: The Na'Vi won! They overcome a superior military force, that's stupid!

I sure hope these people get outrage over the defeat of the aliens from Independence Day. Or maybe the Federation fleet defeating a Borg Cube. Or maybe the Rebel alliance somehow destroying the Death Star at the battle of Yavin. Or how about this one.

The Vietamese won the Vietnam war. They overcome a superior military force, that's stupid. Ignoring for a moment that people actually say the US didn't lose. The fact is, inferior forces can win with the right circumstances. In Avatar's case, it was because Captain Planet, er I mean Eywa decided to help out.

Other military wanking myth

The Na'vi are mary sues (spoken by one who admits to not seeing the movie) or they are annoying.

This one is a bit harder to challenge, since they won't actually go into detail of why they find the Na'vi are annoying beyond vague claims that they are potrayed as perfect.

As far as I can tell its based on
a. The Na'vi won, therefore its a vindication of their primitive lifestyle
b. The Na'vi are the “good guys” therefore its a vindication of their primitive lifestyle
c. The Na'vi are potrayed as “perfect”

The first argument is essentially might makes right, which is morally bankrupt (except the Military wankers use it).

The second argument can be dismissed as its not very hard to be the “good guy” when the other side engages in ethnic cleansing to make money.

The third argument is essentially an unsupported claim. Did the Na'vi say their lives were perfect? Is there anything like authorial fiat to state that the Na'vi are perfect? The answer appears to be no.

More military myths

Avatar is unsubtly saying “Indians are good, white men bad.” If we assume the Na'vi are roughly allegorical to native Americans and the humans are allegorical to “White men” the above claim is not even close to correct. For the simple reason that some of the “white men” are shown to be good, namely Jake, Grace, Trudy and the scientists etc.

I am beginning to think even if James Cameron had RDA personel barring Jake and allies looking like giant pepper pots with toilet plungers as hand with guns as the other, going around killing Na'vi and shouting out "Exterminate", the military wankers would still say RDA were morally right.

[Darth Hoth]

The idea that the Na'vi are 'superior' because they worship that 'Gaian crap' is basically total nonsense. What they have are simple, meaningful lives that weren't achieved through mass commercialisation and consumption. They're better than humans in the sense that they have their priorities straight: they're not interested in accumulating all sorts of whizzbang toys and the latest and greatest in slim and sexy touchscreen whozamawats. Cameron pretty clearly believes that modern societies are mental. The Na'vi show you can have a life which is special and important when all you've got is bioluminescent horses and a big ass tree. There is certainly a significant element of environmentalism in there, of course, but that was the message I took home from Avatar.

My beef with the Navi culture is more that their stone-age primitive society is somehow implied to be a desirable state for society in general. Yay, they have simple, meaningful lives without hurting the environment with rites of passage and communal worship of the Great Spirit, everything's looking real nice!

No one mentions how such modern comforts as health care (above the literal witch-doctor level), dental hygiene, distribution of labour, and in extremis, food security from basic starvation and such other minor matters are a product of modern, developed human society. The Navi have few/none of these, but they seem to do perfectly without them regardless. Their magical tree-spirits sub for some of them, and others are simply handwaved.

To put it briefly, they have a much easier time of being that primitive than they should or would in a realistic setting. The negative effects of their lifestyle are almost entirely ignored (except, perhaps, for superstition and fatalism), and the "positive" features left are held up as some primitive paradise. Whereas modern human society is portrayed with few redeeming qualities as uncaring, morally bankrupt and having destroyed Earth, despite humanity somehow being able to build an utter monster of a spaceship which must have cost God only know hows many trillion dollars just to fuel.

Which, in sum, makes the story into kind of a false ad for neo-Luddism.

[Darth Hoth]

Avatar Human-Wank Argument #2: Earth needs the resources/Earth is Dying

While this enunciates the dominant SDN position quite clearly, it does nothing to address those people (here or elsewhere) who tend to subscribe closer to political realism, where the ends justify the means.

Avatar Human-Wank Argument #3: The Na’vi Started It, Savages!

This one is sort of unclear to me. Was that picture in the original film, or was it an addition for the special edition? Either way, it could use some elaboration.

[Ilya Muromets]

My beef with the Navi culture is more that their stone-age primitive society is somehow implied to be a desirable state for society in general. Yay, they have simple, meaningful lives without hurting the environment with rites of passage and communal worship of the Great Spirit, everything's looking real nice!

A "Great Spirit" which, instead of some vague concept as it is in most settings, actually does exist as some sort of biological internet. And how did it come off as superior? Because they won? Because they were the ones oppressed? Huh? They came off as insular, misinformed pricks to me a lot of the time, but I don't think for a second that Colonel "Fanboys-Wish-They-Were-Me" Quarritch was right. Nor do I think the Na'vi came off as inherently superior.

No one mentions how such modern comforts as health care (above the literal witch-doctor level), dental hygiene, distribution of labour, and in extremis,

And how much time do you think the movie had to spend on that? Did they give you any stats on actual death or birth rates? Does that mean the movie not spending time to show the less healthy parts of Na'vi society suddenly mean is does not exist?

food security from basic starvation

On a planet with more bio-matter per square inch than many Earth forests. Bio-matter they can somehow talk to. They also live on a fuck-off huge tree which, if it's anything like earth, could easily support a lot of flora and fauna. Not to mention the flora and fauna all around the tree. Somehow the Na'vi can get anything to eat from all that?

and such other minor matters are a product of modern, developed human society. The Navi have few/none of these, but they seem to do perfectly without them regardless. Their magical tree-spirits sub for some of them, and others are simply handwaved.

To put it briefly, they have a much easier time of being that primitive than they should or would in a realistic setting. The negative effects of their lifestyle are almost entirely ignored (except, perhaps, for superstition and fatalism), and the "positive" features left are held up as some primitive paradise.

A lot of real-life native rainforest groups without easy access to modern do pretty well, but I never thought of them as superior. They can make do with what they have to survive off it, but it's not better -- which is exactly what I thought of the Na'vi. HOW exactly were they "superior" to humans other than that they were natives who do pretty well given their native environment? Or am I supposed to be pissed at the local Aboriginal groups here in the Philippines who live as they do because the nearest road is literally weeks away?

Whereas modern human society is portrayed with few redeeming qualities as uncaring, morally bankrupt and having destroyed Earth, despite humanity somehow being able to build an utter monster of a spaceship which must have cost God only know hows many trillion dollars just to fuel.

Which, in sum, makes the story into kind of a false ad for neo-Luddism.

So a corporation and a bunch of hired mercenaries now solely represent modern human society? And the scientists and the one pilot who wasn't a murderous asshole who are portrayed in a more positive light somehow don't qualify as representing the positive aspects of human society? The very same scientists who managed the impressive scientific feat of using human technology to actually create artificial bodies they can port their minds to? That doesn't count as "humanity fuck yeah!"? How does that work?

Oh, wait, they were nice to the natives! Clearly they have forfeited their humanity.

Or maybe they'd only qualify as human society if they were led by some fanboy-baiting badass stereotype.

[LaCroix]

On "glass canopies"...

I feel compelled to repost what I have said back then in the first Avatar thread.

As adam_grif told us, the Comanche helicopter's canopy was built to be able to shrug of 12.7mm NATO rounds.

A cal.50 bullet weights around 40-50 grams with up to 900m/s -> 0.04*900 = 36 kg*m/s; so let's take that as benchmark.

A normal 28" fir/cedar sport arrow weights about 30-40 grams. An war arrow would be made of oak or similar hardwood, and a different tip, easily doubling that weight(70-80 grams). The Na'vi 'javelin' is at least 2,5 times longer -> 175-200 grams.
Edit: I found war arrows with as much as 120 grams, as well.

But then, the longer arrow would have to be much thicker to work with that bow (at least half to 3/4 inch diameter as in comparison to the 11/32 inch of a normal arrow), or they would snap at release. (And not be accurate, at all.)

By optics, their flight path looks "normal", which means they achieve flight speeds of 150 ft/s on average (which is much less than a modern bow can achieve, and is about on par with an English longbow.)

So you can assume those arrows weighting easily about 500 grams, and flying with 150 fps. That's no toy anymore!

The bow alone:
0.5 kg*50m/s= 25kg*m/s momentum

This would obviously not penetrate said canopy, although scratches are quite possible
So this is consistent with the facts that ground and level-fired arrows just bounced off.

But in dive, things look quite different:
The banshee is said to reach dive speeds of ~140 knots - 260km/h -> 72 m/s; that's more than the arrow alone would achieve!

0.5*(50+72)= 61kg*m/s, nearly double the momentum of the cal.50.

No wonder they went through...

[Ellindsey]

Honestly, my biggest problem with the movie was the notion that a civilization that can produce antimatter in industrial quantities would need to mine an inhabited world for mineral resources. We know that Unobtanium is comparable in density to normal matter and stable under normal temperature and pressure conditions, which rules out a lot of the the more exotic possibilities for what it might be. If unobtanium is made out of atoms (as opposed to something really strange like strange matter or something) then it should be at least theoretically possible to create it artificially. Staggeringly expensive, perhaps, requiring highly exotic, high-energy processes, perhaps involving specialized particle accelerators to produce elements not normally found in nature, but the same is also true of manufacturing antimatter, which they have the demonstrated capability to do.

[bz249]

Honestly, my biggest problem with the movie was the notion that a civilization that can produce antimatter in industrial quantities would need to mine an inhabited world for mineral resources. We know that Unobtanium is comparable in density to normal matter and stable under normal temperature and pressure conditions, which rules out a lot of the the more exotic possibilities for what it might be. If unobtanium is made out of atoms (as opposed to something really strange like strange matter or something) then it should be at least theoretically possible to create it artificially. Staggeringly expensive, perhaps, requiring highly exotic, high-energy processes, perhaps involving specialized particle accelerators to produce elements not normally found in nature, but the same is also true of manufacturing antimatter, which they have the demonstrated capability to do.

Not that the mining process was not prohibitively expensive, since for a few houndred tons of the stuff one has to burn insane amount antimatter (simply reaching 0.7c requires 1/3 of the rest mass to be converted assuming 100% efficiency which is far from reality) to transport it back to Earth. It is a magic material and that's the story.

[Whiskey144]

So you've not seen the film? A bunch of human scientists are depicted as every iota as morally worthy as the Na'vi, if not more so.

I was not aware of this.

Addressed in the OP. In "Avatar Human-Wank Argument #3: The Na’vi Started It, Savages!"

Technically, it's not. This is because I'm not saying "Na'vi savages started it", simply pondering whether or not the very first time the Na'vi and humans met, the Na'vi got the piss scared out of them and attacked the humans (it's not a totally unreasonable thing, and is something I could see being forgiven).

The Na'vi are mary sues (spoken by one who admits to not seeing the movie) or they are annoying.

This one is a bit harder to challenge, since they won't actually go into detail of why they find the Na'vi are annoying beyond vague claims that they are potrayed as perfect.

As far as I can tell its based on
a. The Na'vi won, therefore its a vindication of their primitive lifestyle
b. The Na'vi are the “good guys” therefore its a vindication of their primitive lifestyle
c. The Na'vi are potrayed as “perfect”

The first argument is essentially might makes right, which is morally bankrupt (except the Military wankers use it).

The second argument can be dismissed as its not very hard to be the “good guy” when the other side engages in ethnic cleansing to make money.

The third argument is essentially an unsupported claim. Did the Na'vi say their lives were perfect? Is there anything like authorial fiat to state that the Na'vi are perfect? The answer appears to be no.

I'll note that I only formed the opinion on the basis that all of the reviews and information I'd previously read portrayed them in a manner consistent with point c.

I am beginning to think even if James Cameron had RDA personel barring Jake and allies looking like giant pepper pots with toilet plungers as hand with guns as the other, going around killing Na'vi and shouting out "Exterminate", the military wankers would still say RDA were morally right.

TBH I don't think I've ever argued that the RDA were morally right or wrong. I've simply made the, albeit flawed from biased sources, assumption that the Na'vi are Mary Sueish.

That said, I'm doubtful of RDA morality, for the simple reason that it would have been much easier, arguably cheaper, and certainly preserved (at the least, human) life to simply find another suitable location to acquire the unobtainium. In the interests of maximum profit margins, they decided to go for the lode that was under the Home Tree. Can you say, "stupid say what?"

Because I find the idea that that was done for max profit absolutely daft; it's quite possible that some of the human attackers were going to die, and then you have to go and pay compensation and death benefits to the families (I'd say if only because of a major political power making them). And the rather obvious issue of people dying.

[Zixinus]

May I bring another small point (perhaps afficed to point six)1:

In it goes, thanks!

Glad to be of service.

I actually wanted to ask to modify the bit about fifteen clans joining in, but a look at this wiki tells that I was actually right. I have no idea where that number came from, so when I re-read my bit I was surprised but it turns out I was spot-on.

[Rekkon]

On the matter of dropping asteroids from orbit, a point that occurred to me shortly after I saw the film was that the RDA might not be equipped to do so. At the time I did not know the Venture Star had refueling stations in Alpha Centauri and assumed it carried all it needed for the round trip. That probably would have meant they did not have the fuel to fly around the system, towing large rocks back to Pandora, assuming they could jury rig equipment to do so. The shuttles were of no more use since they looked like strictly short range surface to orbit transfer vehicles. And this is all aside from actually dropping large rocks where you want them to go. I imagine the targeting for that is non-trivial if you do not have specialized systems for it, particularly ways to correct the course of your rock as it falls.

As for mining the mountains, I seem to recall reading somewhere that they tried that, only to discover that messing with the material levitating said mountains was bad for your health. I cannot find the relevant Pandorapedia article though.

[Simon_Jester]

Honestly, my biggest problem with the movie was the notion that a civilization that can produce antimatter in industrial quantities would need to mine an inhabited world for mineral resources. We know that Unobtanium is comparable in density to normal matter and stable under normal temperature and pressure conditions, which rules out a lot of the the more exotic possibilities for what it might be. If unobtanium is made out of atoms (as opposed to something really strange like strange matter or something) then it should be at least theoretically possible to create it artificially. Staggeringly expensive, perhaps, requiring highly exotic, high-energy processes, perhaps involving specialized particle accelerators to produce elements not normally found in nature, but the same is also true of manufacturing antimatter, which they have the demonstrated capability to do.

Unobtainium is, of necessity, based on physics not known; it doesn't have a place anywhere in the Standard Model. Whether it can be created artificially at costs even remotely competitive to flying to Alpha Centauri to get it (yes, knowing that antimatter fueled starships are used to get there)... no way to be sure.

I accept it as a necessary handwave- the need for resource extraction is one of the few things about human civilization that has never changed from prehistoric times to the most advanced modern cultures, so positing that it won't change in the future seems reasonable to me.

I am beginning to think even if James Cameron had RDA personel barring Jake and allies looking like giant pepper pots with toilet plungers as hand with guns as the other, going around killing Na'vi and shouting out "Exterminate", the military wankers would still say RDA were morally right.

TBH I don't think I've ever argued that the RDA were morally right or wrong. I've simply made the, albeit flawed from biased sources, assumption that the Na'vi are Mary Sueish.

That said, I'm doubtful of RDA morality, for the simple reason that it would have been much easier, arguably cheaper, and certainly preserved (at the least, human) life to simply find another suitable location to acquire the unobtainium. In the interests of maximum profit margins, they decided to go for the lode that was under the Home Tree. Can you say, "stupid say what?"

Because I find the idea that that was done for max profit absolutely daft; it's quite possible that some of the human attackers were going to die, and then you have to go and pay compensation and death benefits to the families (I'd say if only because of a major political power making them). And the rather obvious issue of people dying.

There are situations in real life where it is honestly cheaper to let some people die than it is to dig your mine at a less profitable site- if, for example, there is a higher 'grade' of unobtainium ore that contains 10% more of the material that gives the stuff its magical properties, then the RDA might quite reasonably calculate that it's worth losing hundreds of PMC troopers if that's what it takes to get access to the deposit. And they don't expect to lose hundreds of men, either.

So I won't assume the RDA's behavior was stupid without much more evidence than was present in the movie- and I'm opposed to the idea of passing judgment on them without watching them in action.

[NecronLord]

The idea that the Na'vi are 'superior' because they worship that 'Gaian crap' is basically total nonsense. What they have are simple, meaningful lives that weren't achieved through mass commercialisation and consumption. They're better than humans in the sense that they have their priorities straight: they're not interested in accumulating all sorts of whizzbang toys and the latest and greatest in slim and sexy touchscreen whozamawats. Cameron pretty clearly believes that modern societies are mental. The Na'vi show you can have a life which is special and important when all you've got is bioluminescent horses and a big ass tree. There is certainly a significant element of environmentalism in there, of course, but that was the message I took home from Avatar.

My beef with the Navi culture is more that their stone-age primitive society is somehow implied to be a desirable state for society in general. Yay, they have simple, meaningful lives without hurting the environment with rites of passage and communal worship of the Great Spirit, everything's looking real nice!

No one mentions how such modern comforts as health care (above the literal witch-doctor level), dental hygiene, distribution of labour, and in extremis, food security from basic starvation and such other minor matters are a product of modern, developed human society. The Navi have few/none of these, but they seem to do perfectly without them regardless. Their magical tree-spirits sub for some of them, and others are simply handwaved.

It may interest you to know that disease is considered in some detail in the "Avatar Scriptment" an early treatment of the story. The RDA's most valuable side-business on Pandora involves the ability of the environment to just squash viruses.

He tells them the stiff penalties for any violation of the base security rules, as well as for the use of illegal drugs, fighting, misuse of firearms and so on. There is a frontier town mentality, as well as an overwhelming sense of us against them. Us being the humans, and them being anything that draws breath on Pandora. It's not all grim here, he says. As of today you will never get another cold or flu. We don't get them here. Pandora has somehow reacted to the introduction of our viruses by creating a countervirus for each which wipes them out. In fact, the Consortium has the patents on these counterviruses, and when the FDA approves them, everybody on Earth will be buying them. That's the sort of thing we're looking for here. So please stay alert to the commercial possibilities of your research.

That was dropped from the film though, so it's anyone's guess...

To put it briefly, they have a much easier time of being that primitive than they should or would in a realistic setting. The negative effects of their lifestyle are almost entirely ignored (except, perhaps, for superstition and fatalism), and the "positive" features left are held up as some primitive paradise. Whereas modern human society is portrayed with few redeeming qualities as uncaring, morally bankrupt and having destroyed Earth, despite humanity somehow being able to build an utter monster of a spaceship which must have cost God only know hows many trillion dollars just to fuel.

Which, in sum, makes the story into kind of a false ad for neo-Luddism.

It's not a luddite story, it's an environmentalist story.

Environmentalism isn't anti-technology.

The most impressive monument to mankind's technological achievement that I've ever seen personally is the Dinorwig Pumped Storage Hydro-Electric station. Pictures really don't do the thing justice, it's totally awe-inspiring.

It is the kind of thing most environmentalists are four-square behind (of course, pumped storage is important even if you're burning coal, but anyway).

No one in the film gives up technology when they switch sides (indeed, at least two of the Na'vi take to using radio quite happily, presumably more would if available) nor is technology or science (most of the human protagnists are scientists!) said to be evil, harmful, or wrong in any way.

While this enunciates the dominant SDN position quite clearly, it does nothing to address those people (here or elsewhere) who tend to subscribe closer to political realism, where the ends justify the means.

Do you think that the Martians' ends justify their means?

If you're willing to dismiss all moral concerns out of hand, very well, evil happens. Of course, shit also happens to bad people too, so there's no reason to complain about Eywa winning, and popular opinion making it death to even try WMD solutions.

This one is sort of unclear to me. Was that picture in the original film, or was it an addition for the special edition? Either way, it could use some elaboration.

It was in the original film, in Grace's Locker in the remote link site in the mountains.

From my theatrical edition DVD.



Shall edit, anyway.

[NecronLord]

Incidentally, to people mentioning the "richest source of unobtanium within 200 clicks in any direction" - it's clearly not the only one, but we don't actually know if there's one two hundred kilometers away, or if they've only geologically surveyed a 200 Km radius or what, so I'm not making an issue of that one.

[Ahriman238]

My beef with the Navi culture is more that their stone-age primitive society is somehow implied to be a desirable state for society in general. Yay, they have simple, meaningful lives without hurting the environment with rites of passage and communal worship of the Great Spirit, everything's looking real nice!

No one mentions how such modern comforts as health care (above the literal witch-doctor level), dental hygiene, distribution of labour, and in extremis, food security from basic starvation and such other minor matters are a product of modern, developed human society. The Navi have few/none of these, but they seem to do perfectly without them regardless. Their magical tree-spirits sub for some of them, and others are simply handwaved.

There is a single throwaway line when Selfridge is ranting at Grace that the Na'vi spurned advanced medical tech. This may be a remnant form the earlier script where there is no infection on Pandora, or it may just be that the Na'vi don't trust the RDA enough to accept that kind of help.

It's not really a story about how horrible a primitive life is, and I think you're reading too much into the bad parts not being shown so much. Need we restart the debate about how no one uses the bathroom in Star Trek, so in the future they've eliminated shitting? The movie is plenty long enough without the sort of padding that showing a plague or something would be, even if it advanced the story in some way.

[LadyTevar]

Whiskey? You may wish to break down and rent the movie. Even if you're simply looking for Summer Popcorn, it is well worth the rental. A pity you didn't get to see it in full Real3D in Theaters. Cameron outdid himself with tasteful, subtle use of the 3D effects.

As LaCroix pointed out, the surprise dive strike the Na'vi did added a lot of force to their weapon strikes, and surprise let the Na'vi get a lot of hits on the RDA forces before the para-military regrouped and started fighting back. That is when the difference between Trained Modern Soldiers and Primative Warriors started winning. There were several shots of multiple Banshees dying and falling with their riders, or riders falling without their Banshees, victims of RDA firepower. This inequality was driven home hard with the death of the 'War Leader'. While his ninja-leap into the open cargo bay of the Dragon was impressive and he got a couple good kills, the RDA gunfire took him down with ease.

Then came the cavalry charge on the RDA ground forces. It was an alien version of Picket's Charge, and just as deadly for the Na'vi. The RDA para-military quickly found defensible cover and proceeded to take out rows of charging cavalry well before the main body hit RDA's position. After breaking the charge, it was just a matter of picking off the Na'vi as they tried to reform.

Last, there is the battle between Sully-Navi and the armored Quarritch. Jake is just as trained in hand-to-hand as Quarritch, has the advantage of being able to breath the atmosphere, and is fully the size (but not the mass) of Quarritch's mecha.
Jake gets his ass kicked nine ways to Sunday. His wife, riding in on the biggest-baddest-mutherfucking predator on Pandora, gets her ass kicked and the predator killed. Two full-grown Na'vi, one with human military training, plus one giant felinoid monstrosity, and they only *just* managed to kill Quirritch.

The Na'vi were not superior in any way. They just got lucky their version of MotherNature wasn't a bitch.

[Whiskey144]

Whiskey? You may wish to break down and rent the movie. Even if you're simply looking for Summer Popcorn, it is well worth the rental. A pity you didn't get to see it in full Real3D in Theaters. Cameron outdid himself with tasteful, subtle use of the 3D effects.

TBH, I'm not really interested in biting the bullet and seeing the movie, because I'm not particularly interested in the film. While the reviews I've read about it are almost certainly not entirely reliable, they rather turned me off of the film. OTOH, the only reason I was interested in it was the hardware (in-universe, that is) and the effects.

With the former, hard-SF novels come to the rescue, whilst with the latter, the new Tron movie comes to the rescue.

The Tron film also has +10 awesomeness for having Olivia Wilde in it.

[Setzer]

Not having seen the movie hurts your ability to argue a point. Take it from one who's tried.

[Ford Prefect]

Whereas modern human society is portrayed with few redeeming qualities as uncaring, morally bankrupt and having destroyed Earth, despite humanity somehow being able to build an utter monster of a spaceship which must have cost God only know hows many trillion dollars just to fuel.

This sentence demonstrates quite aptly how completely you managed to miss my point. While I will admit that my interpretation of Cameron's message is merely my interpretation, let's consider the Venture Star and its sister ships. They are vast and brilliant examples of the capabilities of human ingenuity and modern science. They are built upon a foundation laid by a thousand thousand bright and brilliant men and women, built by a thousand thousand more hard working hands. They represent the highest level of our command of science and technology, Arrows of Sagittarius made to soar across the void between stars.

And they're used to make money.

[Whiskey144]

Not having seen the movie hurts your ability to argue a point. Take it from one who's tried.

True, true. Guess it's fortunate I've given up on arguing said point, eh?

And they're used to make money.

I see no problem here.

Considering the current political situation on Earth, and the likelihood that this is mirrored in Cameron's Avatar film, then the general public and the government are probably going to want to see some kind of profit from the massive expenditure of funding what effectively amounts to an NGO with military capability, to mine magitech metal on a moon in a location that takes years to reach and requires enormous amounts of energy and money.

But then again, I'm pretty certain someone could take Avatar and build a pseudo-operatic setting out of it, complete with interstellar trade and giant battlefleets dueling for supremacy.

[eyl]

On the matter of dropping asteroids from orbit, a point that occurred to me shortly after I saw the film was that the RDA might not be equipped to do so. At the time I did not know the Venture Star had refueling stations in Alpha Centauri and assumed it carried all it needed for the round trip. That probably would have meant they did not have the fuel to fly around the system, towing large rocks back to Pandora, assuming they could jury rig equipment to do so. The shuttles were of no more use since they looked like strictly short range surface to orbit transfer vehicles. And this is all aside from actually dropping large rocks where you want them to go. I imagine the targeting for that is non-trivial if you do not have specialized systems for it, particularly ways to correct the course of your rock as it falls.

Do we know if the ships are even under full RDA control? I can't see Earth nations being happy with a potential planetkiller in private hands.

On another board, someone suggested the RDA could have "accidently" let some junk drift out from an incoming ship into Pandora, rather than facing the consequences of using outright WMDs. If Earth has any sense, this would still likely mean a practical corporate death sentence for the RDA; even if the increased scrutiny of the situation on Pandora didn't reveal anything, and even if it was ruled entirely accidental - would you want to allow people who've demonstrated the ability to destroy a biosphere by accident fly intersteller starships anywhere near Earth?