How Would You Reboot Stargate?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I have a couple of minor points regarding the Goa'uld.

For one, I'd like to state my support for keeping the animal masks and the staff weapons. They may be cheesy, or they may be cool, but you can't please everyone. For me, their importance is in establishing the Goa'uld's soldiers (whether Jaffa, humans or whatever) as being different from those of the SGC. The sense of difference, in my opinion, is part of what makes them effective adversaries.

For the other, an idea that particularly amused me was of having certain Goa'uld devices be activated and/or controlled via rituals. An example would be a weather-control machine, or an interstellar communications system (especially when contacting a big-name Goa'uld), which would be rigged to activate in response to the right combination of sounds, movements, taps on a particular floor tile, etc. This would help maintain the Goa'uld's religious ethos, and also give the Daniel Jackson character something important to do (ie, hurriedly try to figure out the ritual while his companions fight off enraged temple guards, etc).

[Marcus Aurelius]

Ehh, the series already has too much baggage, and Stargate Universe was already an attempt at SG TNG, what with it's distancing itself from the mythos and making it more accessible to newcomers. And it's shifting towards the grimdark spectrum. And being generally sub-par. SG1 had 10 seasons, then 5 of SGA, whereas TNG was coming off what, 3 seasons of TOS? SG1 had done all the kinds of SciFi monster of the week plots and then some, whereas TNG was for the most part still extracting oil from the same well that TOS was. The SG well is dry. I mean, what are they gonna do? More Goa'uld system lords appearing from nowhere? The replicators return AGAIN? Another ascended Ori style enemy? The Lucian alliance are not enough to carry that sort of series.

A reboot allows you to correct mistakes instead of just retconning/ ignoring them, and revisit / improve some things that really worked well without simply recycling the same plot in the same setting at a later date. Since it's a total reboot, there is ZERO baggage from previous series since you're going to be throwing stuff out, keeping the good and retelling the story from the start. New viewers can watch a cool new scifi show, and old viewers will (hopefully) appreciate the similarities to the old story and the divergences that it's taking.

How about using some imagination for the NG part? And SGA really wasn't Stargate the Next Generation, it was more like Stargate Voyager, if we want a more accurate analogy. There wasn't any really major brake in time to the SG1.

Well, in any case, all the arguments you put in favor of a reboot could also be used to advance a completely new concept. I mean the Stargate thingy is not THAT special that it deserves another series with the same basic premise, precisely because so many seasons were already made, or at the very least you should go much further in changing the concept than most people here have suggested and call it Wormhole X-treme or something For example; move it 100 years into the future and the Stargate is found on Moon or Mars orbit or something and they would go through it in primitive spaceships instead of US air force uniforms, 2001 style. Hell, even the Stargate 1939 idea would be better than a relatively straightforward reboot of the original concept with minor alterations.

[adam_grif]

How about using some imagination for the NG part? And SGA really wasn't Stargate the Next Generation, it was more like Stargate Voyager, if we want a more accurate analogy. There wasn't any really major brake in time to the SG1.

I think you meant to say "SGU" there, not SGA. SGA definitely was SG TNG.

Well, in any case, all the arguments you put in favor of a reboot could also be used to advance a completely new concept.

Of course, but this is a thread about the continuation of the stargate franchise in the form of a reboot. If it was a choice between a Reboot and some continuation set a few years into the future of the franchise, I'd much rather a Reboot..

For example; move it 100 years into the future and the Stargate is found on Moon or Mars orbit or something and they would go through it in primitive spaceships instead of US air force uniforms,

They find a cache of ancient tech on the polar regions of Mars, which leads them to discover and activate the Stargate, which is orbiting Pluto. Wait, that seems familiar...

Hell, even the Stargate 1939 idea would be better than a relatively straightforward reboot of the original concept with minor alterations.

Yeah! Hitler makes a deal with the space Nazis and gets the technology to transform into MECHA HITLER, who will be the primary antagonist of the series.

It will be GLORIOUS.

[Jeremy]

[quote="adam_grif"']They find a cache of ancient tech on the polar regions of Mars, which leads them to discover and activate the Stargate, which is orbiting Pluto. Wait, that seems familiar...[/quote]
2001?

[adam_grif]

Mass Effect

[JME2]

The problem with doing a time-jump into the future is that it rejects one of the core tenets/appeals of the franchise: the focus on present-day military personnel and civilian scientists being thrust into this larger world. True, we could see the ultimate legacy of the SG-1 and the SGC, but the present-day focus is as ingrained into the franchise as the civilian/military conflict. I wouldn't want to lose that perspective, even more so if a reboot was set in the 1930's.

[jollyreaper]

Why reboot at all? Why not just a new series in a similar vein? Stargate was trying for the Indiana Jones vibe, right? Action and adventure with a fun wink, no grimdark. So why not greenlight another series just like that? The worst fallacy of modern scifi is the idea that everything has to be spinoffs or based on something. The Siffy Galactica bore so little relation to the original I don't even know why they bothered. My only guess is that they couldn't have sold an original series of religious robots blowing up humanity but if they called it a BSG reboot they could get their foot in the door. Shit, how about next we do a hyped up cop show retread and say it's a remake of an old TV show it bears no relation to like Hawaii 5-0. What's that you say? Goddamnit.

[Lonestar]

That was fucking baffling. They get the Stargate working and within a decade they're churning out massive fucking starships? The reverse engineered glider was neat because it was just a glider with human additions. Going from there to the Prometheus is a bizarre step in such a timeframe.

Part of what I liked about the show was the idea that Earth was essentially the Alice Springs of the galaxy. It'd be like LoTR ending with the foundation of the Hobbit Empire and their conquest of everything west of the Anduin.

I said this in the SGU thread, but really even buying the idea of the SGC suddenly acquiring Earth Alliance looking new starships and going through major iterations within a decade, it really jumped the proverbial shark with the installation of Asgard beam guns on the Odyssey. Once these magic weapons were installed on the Daedalus and Apollo(without any external differences, mind) they wouldn't have even NEEDED the dumbass mind-control ark of truth movie. The three 304s could have shot the Ori fleet in the Milky Way to ribbons.

I didn't like the SGC being a more or less USAF operation(yeah, there were a few episodes with Marine SG Teams, and on occasion saw an Army team in the background). The nature of the SGC practically screams "Green Berets". When(if) starships are built it should be on the USN Submarine model; that is some E5 should be on the conn instead of an O5, and the spacious passageways are right out. The program should remain American for a while, but if SGC is under NORAD it beggers belief that the Canadians(and by extension other Commonwealth nations) wouldn't figure out something is up. Which means China nations like China, Russia, and France would figure it out pretty quick.

Despite what some would like, a better female-male ratio is almost impossible, since most of the teams are going to be SF-types. Maybe you'd have something analogous to a PRT going in after contact is established.

[StarshipTitanic]

Why reboot at all? Why not just a new series in a similar vein? Stargate was trying for the Indiana Jones vibe, right? Action and adventure with a fun wink, no grimdark. So why not greenlight another series just like that? The worst fallacy of modern scifi is the idea that everything has to be spinoffs or based on something. The Siffy Galactica bore so little relation to the original I don't even know why they bothered. My only guess is that they couldn't have sold an original series of religious robots blowing up humanity but if they called it a BSG reboot they could get their foot in the door. Shit, how about next we do a hyped up cop show retread and say it's a remake of an old TV show it bears no relation to like Hawaii 5-0. What's that you say? Goddamnit.

You make a good point by showing how simple Stargate's premise is. I think the desire to reboot it is just angst at how the producers drove the series into the ground. I remember thinking how the series had to end when I was watching the episode with the Prometheus. They stepped onto that Star Trek-style bridge and the story was basically over for me. I stuck around until MacGyver left and then I was done.

Atlantis basically was a reboot, but then the producers fucked that one up, too, once the Star Trek ships came back at the end of season one. The villains also sucked. Does anyone remember how people on this board were apologising for the Wraith because they were sure that the Wraith were a placeholder for a bigger, badder enemy?

BSG had a more high concept premise that the new series did explore much better. But Stargate is more akin to a police drama like Hawaii 5-0. There are so many more ways you can do Chariot of the Gods meets modern day soldiers.

[jollyreaper]

You always run into that problem with every series. Starts with a good premise and the writers show they have no understanding of why it was good in the first place.

I'm still miffed about BSG. Yes, it ended up being an awful mess but it actually wouldn't have needed that much work to be good. I still laugh about the corner they wrote themselves into with the Cylons. So you're creating infiltration units that all look alike? Really? Wait, no, we had to because the Cylons said there's only twelve types of humans and here's what you are. Wait a sec, why would robots want to become fleshlings? And then they decide the five they didn't reveal are the founder Cylons and oy, what a frakking mess. The Cylons really should have had a plan in the first place. Watching them walk around in human fashions onboard the basestars is just one long series of WTF srlsly facepalms. They had no idea what they were writing.

The basic premise remains solid. Military-themed show, remnants of humanity escaping an implacable enemy. The original criticism by the nuGalactica creators about the original show is they lost sight of the premise. The TV movie kicking it off was good and then they suddenly had stupid Star Trek scripts popping up left and right. The nuGalactica people said they were going to remain focused on the premise of the show, no goofy aliens, no goofy Cylons on a wild west planet, etc. No, they'll just do a different kind of goofy.

The only real explanation to make sense for the Cylons is that hardcoding "don't kill the humans" rules into their AI's caused logic faults because they had to accept a belief without questioning, without subjecting to logical analysis. Rationalizing orders to kill humans because they're the enemy ends up seeing the Cylons inventing elaborate internal justifications to explain why they're not in violation of two mutually contradictory imperatives. When they accept the colonial religion verbatim, they then surmise that their purpose is to fulfill prophecy. The scriptures say they left a dying world to arrive at the colonies and the end of days will see another apocalypse and journey to heaven. Fine. The Cylons will make that happen and follow the humans to heaven. Religiously insane robots.

[sirocco]

The more I look at previous comments the more it seems that you people wanted to have a tv version of Stargate Worlds i.e. more civilizations to explore, smarter Goa'ulds, less spaceship battle porn but better use of the tech acquired so far by the SGC.

Right?

[Sarevok]

jollyreaper:

The more I think about it nBSG is really Voyager redone in a different way.

- Replace technobabble with mystical-babble.

- Address concern of no internal conflict by creating a level of chaos and hysteria reminiscent of a prison on Virge of a riot. Seriously more people died on screen in nBSG by human hands than by Centurion killbots.

- Rectify emotionaless characters by Twilight esque angst.

Now how does it relate to Stargate : Universe ? It seems the writers thought above conclusions were a good idea. So you got a ship full of bickering people. People charged with powerful technology and weaponry behaving like sex starved teenaggers. And instead of technobabble about how the hyperdrive works you have off the wall visions and "higher powers".

If cancellation of SG:U means American TV writters have got the message they drew the wrong conclusions about why nBSG was a hit then it is a good thing.

[Thanas]

jollyreaper:

The more I think about it nBSG is really Voyager redone in a different way.

You are an idiot.

[Zaune]

I wouldn't have put it quite that strongly, but personally I see more direct similarities with DS9. Except that DS9 made the combination of a fairly grim and gritty depiction of warfare (well, for the setting, anyway) with a bunch of increasingly weird mystical stuff work extremely well, where as the BSG remake... didn't.

[JME2]

I wouldn't have put it quite that strongly, but personally I see more direct similarities with DS9. Except that DS9 made the combination of a fairly grim and gritty depiction of warfare (well, for the setting, anyway) with a bunch of increasingly weird mystical stuff work extremely well, where as the BSG remake... didn't.

I think part of it was that the Prophets had been established from the very beginning of DS9. Their story arc and relationship with Sisko was there in the background of the early years, but didn't start becoming more important until the closing years and the team didn't hammer into the audience week after week. It wasn't perfect; I hated the Book of Kosst Amojan, for example, but it was more tolerable there than in nBSG.

[Sarevok]

jollyreaper:

The more I think about it nBSG is really Voyager redone in a different way.

You are an idiot.

nBSG did not start that way. It was incredible thought provoking drama that also addressed common complaints about Star Trek style tv shows. But if you cant see the similarities with Voyager by the time nBSG decay reached season 4 you were still stuck with season 1-2 nostalgia. I could make a whole list of things people slam Voyager for that got repeated nBSG. Things that when the series was universally acclaimed one would treat as an example of how nBSG does things right.

[Sarevok]

I wouldn't have put it quite that strongly, but personally I see more direct similarities with DS9. Except that DS9 made the combination of a fairly grim and gritty depiction of warfare (well, for the setting, anyway) with a bunch of increasingly weird mystical stuff work extremely well, where as the BSG remake... didn't.

I think part of it was that the Prophets had been established from the very beginning of DS9. Their story arc and relationship with Sisko was there in the background of the early years, but didn't start becoming more important until the closing years and the team didn't hammer into the audience week after week. It wasn't perfect; I hated the Book of Kosst Amojan, for example, but it was more tolerable there than in nBSG.

There is also the fact that a space faring power like the Federation did not start worshipping the prophets as some higher powers. Even Sisko knew they were advanced lifeforms and frequently referred to them as the wormhole aliens. To see humans in SG:U suddenly look for divine explanations when Earth consistently defeated supernatural levels of technology by beings claiming to be defacto gods is inconsistent. Same for nBSG. A civilization with that level of technology would not be impressed with mere hallucegenic visions and telepathy that can already be replicated by Cylon cybernetics. To be a higher power to colonials one would need some downright impressive cosmic feats instead of shoehorning some average American christians conceptions about what god is.

Basically sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. To create a suitable "magic" that can impress a space faring civilization you need some damn powerful phenomena. What works for us wont work for people who can already travel faster than light and teleport and wield lightning as weapons.

[sirocco]

There is also the fact that a space faring power like the Federation did not start worshipping the prophets as some higher powers. Even Sisko knew they were advanced lifeforms and frequently referred to them as the wormhole aliens. To see humans in SG:U suddenly look for divine explanations when Earth consistently defeated supernatural levels of technology by beings claiming to be defacto gods is inconsistent. Same for nBSG. A civilization with that level of technology would not be impressed with mere hallucegenic visions and telepathy that can already be replicated by Cylon cybernetics. To be a higher power to colonials one would need some downright impressive cosmic feats instead of shoehorning some average American christians conceptions about what god is.

Basically sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. To create a suitable "magic" that can impress a space faring civilization you need some damn powerful phenomena. What works for us wont work for people who can already travel faster than light and teleport and wield lightning as weapons.

For both it is quite understandable.

In nBSG, the only real advancement are FTL, artificial gravity and maybe better life support. This doesn't make you any less amazed by the wonders accomplished by spirits. For example, in the case of Head Six, Baltar got tested for anything he knew possible and still wasn't able to fathom what she was. And we know for sure that he is no cylon. So he experience something that can't be explained. This is the same for the visions Laura Roslin had of Kobol before it was destroyed and those she had later of the theater that she shared with the other two girls.

In-universe and IRL we don't know what those things are. The light beings could very well be angels or very advanced aliens. Without evidence any guess is as good as any other.

In SG:U, the people on the Destiny are by definition "not the right people" for this kind of thing. They only had theoretical knowledge of Ascension and other really supernatural technology as in out-of-world/other level of existence. It's normal for them to be that naive.

On the contrary if it was Daniel the former ascended brainy dude, there would be no excuse for him to make such mistakes.

So it boils down to that: these are shows about ordinary people facing extra-ordinary situation. Even though what they do ordinarily in-universe would be extra-ordinary IRL.

[Thanas]

nBSG did not start that way. It was incredible thought provoking drama that also addressed common complaints about Star Trek style tv shows. But if you cant see the similarities with Voyager by the time nBSG decay reached season 4 you were still stuck with season 1-2 nostalgia. I could make a whole list of things people slam Voyager for that got repeated nBSG. Things that when the series was universally acclaimed one would treat as an example of how nBSG does things right.

Please do, because the whole premise of the show, directing, acting and the way the cast is utilized is a whole lot different than Voyager.

[Coyote]

I wouldn't have put it quite that strongly, but personally I see more direct similarities with DS9. Except that DS9 made the combination of a fairly grim and gritty depiction of warfare (well, for the setting, anyway) with a bunch of increasingly weird mystical stuff work extremely well, where as the BSG remake... didn't.

Remember, that DS9 was adding a layer of grit to a universe that was otherwise so squeaky-clean that it was unreasonable. Coming from that context, "dirtying down" Star Trek as they did in DS9 worked really well and we could appreciate it.

nBSG started out gritty and realistic, but even though I liked the series all the way through to the end, I did find that my enthusiasm for the Cylon spiritualism was frequently tepid, and the mystic vision moments were... whatever. Crystal balls and Tarot cards sometimes seemed to be right around the next corner. They had sufficient materiel without going that route, which seemed lazy.