Regarding the Statute of Secrecy (Harry Potter):

[The Romulan Republic]

This was inspired by this Harry Potter thread:

bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=162791

Basically, a discussion arose about the morality of the Statute of Secrecy/concealment of magic and the practicality of ending it and I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread on the topic. Its certainly an interesting one.

The Statute of Secrecy keeps the Wizarding World hidden, and it is enforced by mass mind control of non-magical people (Muggles). Personally I consider this morally bankrupt, and I know I'm not alone in that. But the problem is that any revelation of the Wizarding World would probably lead to massive chaos, paranoia, and hostility. I would expect most Muggle nations to become police states and witch hunting to make a big comeback, which might increase the popularity of nuts like Voldemort in retaliation.

So, what should be done? I favour a gradual loosening of the coverup.

Edited to fix the link.

Edit: Still doesn't work. Anyway, the thread's titled "Which curse is the most unforgivable" and its right near the top of the Science Fiction forum right now.

[The Romulan Republic]

To clarify, I favour loosening the secrecy as a step towards abolition, but I voted for loosening it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The trouble is, as I see it, the Wizarding world have backed themselves into a corner with this one. If they did begin to loosen it, and to eventually abolish it, the muggles will eventually find out about the centuries of mental manipulation, memory wipes and outright slaughter by wizards, not to mention wizards allowing Dementors (the cause of muggle depression, apparently) to exist in an uncontained manner.

No muggle government, and very few individuals, will trust them after learning of this. Any who do will probably immediately be suspected of being under the Imperius curse, or some other spell. Since apparently no muggle technology can inhibit magic, but magic can inhibit muggle technology, the muggles have no way to protect themselves from wizards without either a) destroying all magical people and beings or b) trusting wizards to provide that protection for them. And the trust simply won't be there.

If they drop the secrecy in one go, enough muggles will react violently to spark a war the wizards cannot realistically win. If they do it gradually, the muggles will still learn of the centuries of mind-fucking, and the violent reaction will probably be even stronger. If they keep it as-is, then they continue mind-fucking muggles for decades, until such time that muggles accidentally discover the magical world through some quirk of technology. And then they learn of the centuries of mind-fuckign and we're back where we started.

Basically, the wizarding world is utterly screwed in the long-term.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think the best approach is to start a gradual exposure since that at least avoids the shock of it all being revealed at once and allows ties between the societies to develop more before the truth comes out. But the wizards are going to have to be prepared to make major concessions to appease Muggles once it happens.

And it might be good to keep a record of all communications between the Muggle leaders and the Wizarding World. The wizards can say "Your leaders knew and kept you in the dark." to legitimize themselves, keep the Muggle leaders from putting all the blame on them, and give Muggle leaders a reason to play nice. Of course, the Muggle leaders might try to play the "I was under the Imperious Curse" card, but its better than nothing.

[Tribble]

The Wizard community is a lot like the Second Foundation. It's greatest strength is the fact that it remains more or less undetected and most people don't know what's going on. If the average person knew the kind of power the wizards had and what they've done over the centuries... things wouldn't end well for the wizards.

If the Wizards are discovered and a war erupts, they could pull off what the Second Foundation did, and make it look like they were all killed. Then when the dust settles, quietly go about making people forget all about them. Barring some tech advance that can block magic, that should work. And even if tech advances are made that can block magic, if the wizards catch it in time they should be able to put a stop to it, then erase all knowledge of it and magic in general.

[Zaune]

I honestly wonder exactly who it's meant to be protecting from who. Apart from the obvious issue of relative blowing-shit-up capability (how many aimed pistol shots could a moderately skilled marksman make in the time it takes to say "Avada Kedavara"?), the level of nepotism, corruption and institutionalised prejudice demonstrated by the Ministry of Magic would have been enough to shock even Mrs Thatcher, and that's before they went full Day of the Jackboot in Deathly Hallows.

[The Romulan Republic]

It takes about one to two seconds to say Avada Kedavra (and that's assuming you don't know how to do it with non-verbal magic). Unless you're wielding an automatic weapon, you're not going to get a lot of shots off in that amount of time.

And I think the Statute of Secrecy protects both Muggles and the Wizarding World. It protects Muggles from dangerous wizards and wizards from pissed off Muggles, and it protects both groups from what they might do to themselves. I see the Muggle World largely or entirely becoming police states due to paranoia if the Wizarding World is revealed, and Muggle attacks on Wizards could be seen as a justification for wizards like Voldemort.

Of course, none of that changes that its a morally bankrupt approach.

[TheFeniX]

It takes about one to two seconds to say Avada Kedavra (and that's assuming you don't know how to do it with non-verbal magic). Unless you're wielding an automatic weapon, you're not going to get a lot of shots off in that amount of time.

Back when I was shooting competitively, I could clear my pistol and get off multiple shots in under a second, putting them all center mass at 7-10 yards. That's not even hard to do. Wizard accuracy in the movies isn't all that great. They miss constantly, even the veteran death eaters. Running perpendicular to your attacker and keeping your head down is about as effective against a wand as it is a firearm.

An open fight wizard vs muggles would be a one-sided affair. Yes, one can kill a few people, but they're outnumbered by a large margin and most need their wands to do any real damage. Wizards do tend to be tougher than muggles, but they'd be much better served using all the non-combat abilities they have to ensure they stay hidden or hide their the fact that their society is very backward.

The wizard world wouldn't/shouldn't last two seconds when looked at by a first-world government or moral system. It's either a plutocracy or that with a combination of aristocracy on top. The Malfoy's use their lineage and money to avoid consequences such as trying to murder a young girl to bring about the resurrection of Voldy. They own slaves and actively torture/imprison without due-process/murder "undesirables" the second more sane wizards like Dumbledore are out of the picture.

[Simon_Jester]

The Wizard community is a lot like the Second Foundation. It's greatest strength is the fact that it remains more or less undetected and most people don't know what's going on. If the average person knew the kind of power the wizards had and what they've done over the centuries... things wouldn't end well for the wizards.

The wizarding world is also like the Second Foundation in that their greatest actual power is their ability to manipulate thoughts. To the level that random wizards on vacation can wipe the memories of an entire seaside resort that gets attacked by a dragon. Or that they can read your mind by looking you in the eyes and you can't stop them. And that's before we even get into the Imperius Curse.

[Murazor]

An open fight wizard vs muggles would be a one-sided affair. Yes, one can kill a few people, but they're outnumbered by a large margin and most need their wands to do any real damage.

Considering what wizard nullities like Pettigrew or Crabbe could do and considering that it is entirely possible to hide wands within umbrellas and the like, all it takes is a single dark wizard of Snape/McGonagall caliber (rare, but not one-in-a-generation kind of rare like Dumbledore or Voldemort) to destroy a modern nation.

Not in the "kill all people everywhere" sense, but certainly in the "make government collapse" sense.

It is literally impossible for the muggles to win any conflict with wizardkind, unless they get wizards of their own or are handwaved protection against a large fraction of the abilities of wizards.

As for the question of the thread, there are arguments for and against lifting the secrecy, and further arguments regarding the difficulty of keeping it up after reaching the digital age. Perhaps the best realistic approach to take in the short term would be to keep it a secret from the public, but give those governments that can be trusted not to do some crazy thing (like try to cart all wizards to the gas chamber) the ability to protect itself, in as much as this can be managed, from hostile magical action without depending on the continued goodwill of the wizarding government.

[Vendetta]

I honestly wonder exactly who it's meant to be protecting from who. Apart from the obvious issue of relative blowing-shit-up capability (how many aimed pistol shots could a moderately skilled marksman make in the time it takes to say "Avada Kedavara"?), the level of nepotism, corruption and institutionalised prejudice demonstrated by the Ministry of Magic would have been enough to shock even Mrs Thatcher, and that's before they went full Day of the Jackboot in Deathly Hallows.

Most series with an equivalent acknowledge that the wizards keep themselves secret for their own protection. That's certainly the case in the Night Watch and in Dresden Files.

I can't help but think that the situation is the same in Harry Potter. Most wizards might not know it, but the secret is kept because if it ever got out they'd be exterminated, beause no matter how fancy their magic is they are a few thousand globally among seven billion.

[Vendetta]

Considering what wizard nullities like Pettigrew or Crabbe could do and considering that it is entirely possible to hide wands within umbrellas and the like, all it takes is a single dark wizard of Snape/McGonagall caliber (rare, but not one-in-a-generation kind of rare like Dumbledore or Voldemort) to destroy a modern nation.

All it takes is one man with a rifle to kill a wizard. Any wizard. Only by maintaining absolute secrecy could they act at all, the moment they tried to move publicly they'd be assassinated.

[bilateralrope]

Considering what wizard nullities like Pettigrew or Crabbe could do and considering that it is entirely possible to hide wands within umbrellas and the like, all it takes is a single dark wizard of Snape/McGonagall caliber (rare, but not one-in-a-generation kind of rare like Dumbledore or Voldemort) to destroy a modern nation.

Not in the "kill all people everywhere" sense, but certainly in the "make government collapse" sense.

It is literally impossible for the muggles to win any conflict with wizardkind, unless they get wizards of their own or are handwaved protection against a large fraction of the abilities of wizards.

True. But they had better hope that anyone in that collapsed governments military doesn't decide to start bombing known wizard locations.

[Crazedwraith]

Considering what wizard nullities like Pettigrew or Crabbe could do and considering that it is entirely possible to hide wands within umbrellas and the like, all it takes is a single dark wizard of Snape/McGonagall caliber (rare, but not one-in-a-generation kind of rare like Dumbledore or Voldemort) to destroy a modern nation.

Not in the "kill all people everywhere" sense, but certainly in the "make government collapse" sense.

It is literally impossible for the muggles to win any conflict with wizardkind, unless they get wizards of their own or are handwaved protection against a large fraction of the abilities of wizards.

True. But they had better hope that anyone in that collapsed governments military doesn't decide to start bombing known wizard locations.

What know wizarding locations? Muggles don't know any wizard locations. Muggles can't find wizard locations. How are they going to overcome muggle repelling charms? Or find unplottable locations?

Even if muggles would win in a stand up fight (and I've never seen anyone source that JKR 'shotgun > wizard' quote), they have no way to force Wizards into one.

[Zaune]

What know wizarding locations? Muggles don't know any wizard locations. Muggles can't find wizard locations. How are they going to overcome muggle repelling charms? Or find unplottable locations?

They can narrow them down to a radius of a few hundred yards and bombard them with artillery, and that's if they can't find a useful number of muggleborn -and some of the saner purebloods for that matter- who see the Ministry for what it is.

[TheFeniX]

Considering what wizard nullities like Pettigrew or Crabbe could do and considering that it is entirely possible to hide wands within umbrellas and the like, all it takes is a single dark wizard of Snape/McGonagall caliber (rare, but not one-in-a-generation kind of rare like Dumbledore or Voldemort) to destroy a modern nation.

How long until other wizards start working with muggle governments to stop them? If anything, the HP movies show just how fragmented the HP-verse wizards are. I doubt Arthur Weasley is going to sit by and watch as wizards murder the muggles he's so fond of.

It is literally impossible for the muggles to win any conflict with wizardkind, unless they get wizards of their own or are handwaved protection against a large fraction of the abilities of wizards.

Considering the arrogance wizards like Malfoy display towards muggles, thinking them little better than animals, it wouldn't surprise me if they try to walk in offices of high-government to wreck up the place and get shot for their trouble.

A slow manipulation of the populace would be their best bet. Releasing media (like the HP movies, except ones that don't show the wizards as xenophobic asshats), infiltration and destruction of more fundamentalists sects with anti-magic views, getting into powerful positions of government through subterfuge without whole-sale relying on mind-control as this has it's limits when done by a person, rather than an omniscient. They could easily work their way in over time, hide all their backwards bullshit, and end up as citizens who can go about both wizard and muggle lives.

The problem is going to be: wizards are going to be targeted and killed/kidnapped by all manner of people. Access to people that with little training can read/control minds? Forget about it.

As for the question of the thread, there are arguments for and against lifting the secrecy, and further arguments regarding the difficulty of keeping it up after reaching the digital age. Perhaps the best realistic approach to take in the short term would be to keep it a secret from the public, but give those governments that can be trusted not to do some crazy thing (like try to cart all wizards to the gas chamber) the ability to protect itself, in as much as this can be managed, from hostile magical action without depending on the continued goodwill of the wizarding government.

They'd better hide the institutionalized slavery and bigotry. No muggle is going to be on good terms with a society that think them little better than animals.

Even if muggles would win in a stand up fight (and I've never seen anyone source that JKR 'shotgun > wizard' quote), they have no way to force Wizards into one.

Well, considering how Voldy's own arrogance got him killed (permanently), it's not above wizards to think they can just waltz into muggle-ville and declare themselves ruler. Zod could do this in Superman, but he actually was practically invulnerable while wizards are anything but.

[The Romulan Republic]

I honestly wonder exactly who it's meant to be protecting from who. Apart from the obvious issue of relative blowing-shit-up capability (how many aimed pistol shots could a moderately skilled marksman make in the time it takes to say "Avada Kedavara"?), the level of nepotism, corruption and institutionalised prejudice demonstrated by the Ministry of Magic would have been enough to shock even Mrs Thatcher, and that's before they went full Day of the Jackboot in Deathly Hallows.

Most series with an equivalent acknowledge that the wizards keep themselves secret for their own protection. That's certainly the case in the Night Watch and in Dresden Files.

I can't help but think that the situation is the same in Harry Potter. Most wizards might not know it, but the secret is kept because if it ever got out they'd be exterminated, beause no matter how fancy their magic is they are a few thousand globally among seven billion.

I find it deeply disturbing that people seem to so eagerly assume the only possible outcome would be genocide. Conflict between two cultures, even when one is clearly weaker than the other, does not have to result in genocide.

[Crazedwraith]

What know wizarding locations? Muggles don't know any wizard locations. Muggles can't find wizard locations. How are they going to overcome muggle repelling charms? Or find unplottable locations?

They can narrow them down to a radius of a few hundred yards and bombard them with artillery, and that's if they can't find a useful number of muggleborn -and some of the saner purebloods for that matter- who see the Ministry for what it is.

How? How are they going to narrow it dow? And how are they going to get the political will/capital that will allow them to suddenly and indiscriminately bomb their own country. And it will have to be suddenly and indiscriminately because if you give wizard's any notice at all, they can teleport to safety. Areas are like Daigon Alley and Platform 9 3/4 are in the midst of muggle areas. If you evacuate they will notice and leave.

Also are places like Diagon Alley and Platform 9 3/4 even 'really' there? I mean are they cloaked from muggle eyes somehow. Or literally in a different dimension. Like Narnia or something. Can you drop bombs on them with blind reckoning?

And you will of course be able to point out the witch and wizard so disaffect they'll help you hunt down and murder their whole society?

[Elheru Aran]

Diagon Alley and Platform 9 3/4s are magically cloaked, IIRC, but Rowling was always very vague about such things and it's certainly possible they're pocket dimensions only accessible by magic-genes. There *are* Muggle-world magical locations that are masked by wizardry, such as Grimmauld Place, Hogsmeade, Hogwarts, the tavern in London that's in front of Diagon Alley, and the magic train that runs between Hogwarts and London.

Although the thought does occur that Diagon Alley is probably a real-world location that's simply been masked by careful urban planning and charms, as when Harry and company escaped on that dragon in Deathly Hallows from the wizard bank, they simply flew out. No Floo powder or magic Tetris involved.

[Murazor]

All it takes is one man with a rifle to kill a wizard. Any wizard. Only by maintaining absolute secrecy could they act at all, the moment they tried to move publicly they'd be assassinated.

All it takes is one man with a rifle to kill a murderer/thief/terrorist. Any murderer/thief/terrorist.

In spite of that, murderers, thieves and terrorists do not get randomly gunned down by heroic bystanders when they pop up, in spite of lacking certain advantages that expert wizards enjoy, such as teleportation, the ability to turn functionally invisible or memory alteration.

How long until other wizards start working with muggle governments to stop them?

Under reasonably sensible parameters, not very long at all.

Under an existential conflict in which muggles are trying to wipe out wizardkind, which is what far too often is argued in this kind of thread, quite a lot longer.

Considering the arrogance wizards like Malfoy display towards muggles, thinking them little better than animals, it wouldn't surprise me if they try to walk in offices of high-government to wreck up the place and get shot for their trouble.

Even a little pureblood shit like Malfoy knows what helicopters are and two random Death Eaters were discreet enough to don muggle clothing in very short order. So even though they certainly wouldn't like to admit it, even the worst Death Eater bigots actually know how to fake their presence among muggles, at least in a basic level.

A slow manipulation of the populace would be their best bet. Releasing media (like the HP movies, except ones that don't show the wizards as xenophobic asshats), infiltration and destruction of more fundamentalists sects with anti-magic views, getting into powerful positions of government through subterfuge without whole-sale relying on mind-control as this has it's limits when done by a person, rather than an omniscient. They could easily work their way in over time, hide all their backwards bullshit, and end up as citizens who can go about both wizard and muggle lives.

Well, if their ability to convincingly plant an auror as personal assistant of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, under the singularly incompetent administration of Fudge, getting people (competent-ish people, even!) into positions of power is easy peachy.

The problem is going to be: wizards are going to be targeted and killed/kidnapped by all manner of people. Access to people that with little training can read/control minds? Forget about it.

Yes, well, that'd be one of the potential problems. Another problem could be wizarding governments disagreeing over the convenience of lifting the Statute. I am sure that the Wizarding Middle East would be a lot less eager than the Eurowizards, for example.

They'd better hide the institutionalized slavery and bigotry. No muggle is going to be on good terms with a society that think them little better than animals.

*points at USA-Saudi Arabia relationships*

Besides, the average wizard does not regard muggles as "little better than animals" seeing that the average wizard lives among muggles, at least in Great Britain. Outside of the Death Eater circlejerk and the relatively small village of Hogsmeade, a wizard's neighbours are going to be muggles.

"Little better than animals" is the attitude of the loonier elements of the Slytherin pureblood demographic. They are not a negligible demographic and they seem to have disproportionate clout, but they are not calling the shots in the modern wizarding world and Voldemort managed to land himself a leadership position among them, because he promised to change this situation.

[The Romulan Republic]

In any case, the point of this isn't who would win in a war. And personally, I think its safe to say that both societies would be fucked for reasons I already explained.

Here are some ideas for fixing the situation from the wizard point of view:

1. Decrease enforcement. There's really no need to erase the memory of every Muggle who sees something magical. I mean, who's going to believe them even if they say anything about it? So they can reserve mandatory mind alterations for instances where mass exposure has occurred (like a Death Eater attack on a busy street).

2. Expand the number of situations where it is permissible to break the Statute of Secrecy. But I'm wary of this because I don't want dark wizards using magic against Muggles.

3. Increase the number of Muggles who are allowed to know about magic. We know close family of wizards and witches can. But what about more distant family and friends?

4. Make Muggle Studies mandatory.

5. Require that someone from the Ministry meet regularly with the Prime Minister, as well as during special situations. Like, once a year, minimum. During these meetings, the Prime Minister would receive comprehensive updates on the Wizarding World, give the Wizarding World comprehensive updates on the Muggle world, and be able to make non-binding recommendations to the Wizarding government (the wizards could also make non-binding recommendations). A dedicated ambassador could be appointed to do this since it would expand to being a larger job. This would also subtly reinforce the idea that the wizards are a separate country, which they effectively are, albeit one not recognized by the Muggles for obvious reasons.

6. Encourage Muggles who are aware of magic to live and work in the magical world, and encourages citizens of the magical world to live among Muggles more. I believe I brought up hiring Muggles in the Unforgiveable Curses thread in the form of using Muggles with guns as snipers, but it could take other forms as well. A Muggle Studies teacher who's an actual Muggle teacher, perhaps? And what about making that ambassador to the Prime Minister a Muggle? That should allay fears that the Prime Minister is being controlled with magic.

7. Like TheFeniX said, put out pro-magic material in the media. And the reverse could be done as well- pro-Muggle material among wizards.

I expect the International Confederation of Warlocks to throw a fit over this, but they didn't seem to help when Voldemort was breaking the Statute of Secrecy for much less noble reasons, so fuck them.

[Elheru Aran]

In general it should *not* be permissible to use magic against *anybody* without their permission, exceptional situations aside (such as Death Eater "terrorist attacks").

A big issue is that Muggles are simply starting from zero. One day life is normal; the next day, MAGIC EXISTS. It would be a massive paradigm shift and not something that would be very easy for them to accept. The wizarding world is aware of them and to some degree coexists with them... but the Muggles have no idea about them and don't know that there's magicians, for-real magicians with wands and robes and cauldrons and shit, walking down the street by them.

You simply cannot reveal such things gradually except by a very long process of, say, perhaps quietly revealing the existence of magic on a popular level. Say someone's car breaks down; a wizard could pull up by them, quietly fix their engine with a quick spell, wink at them and drive off. Build up enough stories like that, start revealing "everyday people" who can do such things-- Wizards passing as Muggles-- but the great problem there is trying to hide the fact that wizarding society has coexisted within the Muggle world for centuries, with schools, governments, transport systems and all.

[The Romulan Republic]

You can't end secrecy and still hide that the Wizarding World has been their for a long time. And unfortunately that revelation will be a shock that will probably scare and enrage a lot of people. What you have to do is make sure that their is enough interconnectedness and peaceful coexistence that their will be a lot of Muggles who have a favourable opinion of magical people to act as a counterbalance to the witch hunt types.

You're also going to need enough people on the wizarding side who will keep the Death Eater types in line. First thing I'd do before exposure is beef up Magical Law Enforcement massively.

[Murazor]

A fairly big thing would be if the Ministry used better magic detection.

Their existing system sucks, to put it mildly, and improving it would not be that hard. Voldemort put his title under Taboo and saying it both alerted hunters of the location of the speaker and disabled defensive magic in the proximities of the Speaker.

Making certain incantations Taboo (maybe not Imperio, because that would result in an hilarious number of false positives thanks to Spanish speakers, but certainly Avada Kedavra) would go a long way towards containing magical crime.

[Guardsman Bass]

I don't think the Statute of Secrecy makes any sense in the first place, although abolishing at this point would be unwise (you'd be better off gradually loosening it, by letting some magical creatures get detected and so forth). This is a world where they've got thousands of years of civilization where magic-users, even if only a small minority, have capabilities like instantaneous teleportation, mind control, all kinds of healing, and tons of magical creatures. There is no way this world should look anything like our world except insofar as there are humans in it. Magic and magical products would be everywhere.