Clone Wars series (SPOILERS)

[Solauren]

Well, after watching the first episode (haven't seen the second one yet), I know why the Republic + Clone Army was able to fight off the Droid Army, even if the numbers we've been given are accurate.

Apparently, Trade Federation and C.I.S Battle Droids, despite not having organic brains, have somehow managed to be at least moderately brain damaged.

[VT-16]

Well, they're better as capital ship gunners. At least in the second episode.

[Darwin]

Well, after watching the first episode (haven't seen the second one yet), I know why the Republic + Clone Army was able to fight off the Droid Army, even if the numbers we've been given are accurate.

Apparently, Trade Federation and C.I.S Battle Droids, despite not having organic brains, have somehow managed to be at least moderately brain damaged.

Lowest. Bidder. Programming.

A promotion system for droids can only be feasible (or make any sense at all) if droid software/hardware interactions are so variable that the quality of a particular run of droids is evaluated in the field, with particularly well-constructed, well-running droids being granted larger command and more autonomy, with the bottom-heavy CIS forces usually promoting anything with any ability whatsoever up past its point of competence, with plenty of turnover. The army is just so droid-heavy that they can't seem to spare meat commanders for anything but the most important operations.

[Count Chocula]

I must say I liked both episodes - IMO they're better than the theatrical release, which was full of Mary Sue wanked out shit. The four-headtail Padawan doesn't even bother me as much.

The secret weapon seems like a friggin' stretch, though. Come on, a sideways firing Ion Cannon Sphere of Doom© seems like a lame top-secret uberweapon. Are we to believe that the Republic doesn't have ion cannon as recently as the debut of the Victory-class Star Destroyer? Other than that, rock on!

[Lord Revan]

I must say I liked both episodes - IMO they're better than the theatrical release, which was full of Mary Sue wanked out shit. The four-headtail Padawan doesn't even bother me as much.

The secret weapon seems like a friggin' stretch, though. Come on, a sideways firing Ion Cannon Sphere of Doom© seems like a lame top-secret uberweapon. Are we to believe that the Republic doesn't have ion cannon as recently as the debut of the Victory-class Star Destroyer? Other than that, rock on!

I'll admit I haven't seen the episodes, but are you sure it's not a scale issue. I mean it could that the Republic was well awere of the ion cannon techology (and used it), but they've not even though of using it on a scale needed to take out whole fleets on 1 shot (even the rebel ion cannon needed 2 hits to disable an IDS and it was a land based system)

[Murazor]

Well, they're better as capital ship gunners. At least in the second episode.

Considering that they were firing against static, powerless, shield-less targets there isn't a whole lot to be impressed there.

At any rate, I got to see this and I must say that I find it pretty decent (even if the Toydarian wastelands were boring, Ventress getting owned by Yoda made up for a lot), although there are some tech details that have been bothering me. For starters, do the ion pulse rings grow after being fired? I'm not sure and if they don't... Well. The Malevolence is one big ship, then, considering that the ring must have been several kilometers in diameter when it hit Plo Koon's fleet. Anyone has done a scaling?

Also, it seems that it has a relatively poor turn rate (it seems that it takes it around half a minute to make the 90º turn they need to get in firing position), because I know that there were some calculations done for ISDs using the TESB incidents and IIRC those results were quite a bit higher... Anyone knows what I am talking about?

[Coyote]

As far as droids getting promotions, it seems to me that in the Star Wars universe, droids get their memories wiped as a matter of routine so they don't begin to develop personalities. R2 was somewhat of an anomaly precisely because Luke refused to wipe R2's memory and he'd begun to develop more self-awareness and the like.

I'd guess that it may be something about the types of programming and hardware used that makes droids constantly hovering on the razor's edge of sentience without regular wipes.

In the case of the B1 droids, they've been around for a long time, and it may not be considered economical to erase them on a regular basis on that scale (the powers-that-be may also be counting on attrition rates to make erasing a non-issue); or, some in the chain of command have decided that the battle droids personalities come with useful advantages, such as giving them an edge in combat-- they develop that veteran's "sixth sense" of instinct that can't be programmed, and counters the drones natural ability to think creatively.

[FSTargetDrone]

In the case of the B1 droids, they've been around for a long time, and it may not be considered economical to erase them on a regular basis on that scale (the powers-that-be may also be counting on attrition rates to make erasing a non-issue); or, some in the chain of command have decided that the battle droids personalities come with useful advantages, such as giving them an edge in combat-- they develop that veteran's "sixth sense" of instinct that can't be programmed, and counters the drones natural ability to think creatively.

If nothing else, those droids hunting down survivors among the lifepods sure seemed to enjoy what they were doing.

In any case, as suggested above, I have to echo the notion that this portrayal of the droids is somewhat problematic, with their bumbling nonsense while others of their kind are somewhat sadistic, especially with this being a show for kids.

If it were up to me, I would just have the droids portrayed as more neutral. I would get rid of their bumbling, running around in terror when their armored vehicle is attacked and gloating over the soon-to-be killed clone troopers. I don't like that they speak to each other (though I don't mind them interacting vocally with humans and other sentient beings) and I really don't like that they scream and flail about.

I think the least-annoying portrayal I've seen is the B1 droids in TPM. They didn't sound like they've been sucking down helium and they actually demonstrated some defensive tactics (hiding behind pillars in palace at Theed).

My favorite droids are the destroyers, who (so far at least) don't speak and don't act like morons.

[Saxtonite]

Considering that they were firing against static, powerless, shield-less targets there isn't a whole lot to be impressed there.

given that the Venators were moving slow at the time of getting hit the accuracy would have been the same even if they were shot at with turbolasers without getting hit by the ion cannon.

The Malevolence is one big ship, then, considering that the ring must have been several kilometers in diameter when it hit Plo Koon's fleet. Anyone has done a scaling?

it does seem that was, given the insides of the cannon that apparently look just like the DS superlaser. Also doesn't the ring seem to grow a little? Or is that mainly perspective? Malevolence might be the Geonosian Dreadnought.

EDIT: oops you did suggest that the rings do grow as well.

because I know that there were some calculations done for ISDs using the TESB incidents and IIRC those results were quite a bit higher... Anyone knows what I am talking about?

IIRC Imperators had horrible turning power when they were moving fast as shown in TESB; when the ships ended up ramming each other. I dont remember fast turning in TESB.

The secret weapon seems like a friggin' stretch, though. Come on, a sideways firing Ion Cannon Sphere of Doom© seems like a lame top-secret uberweapon. Are we to believe that the Republic doesn't have ion cannon as recently as the debut of the Victory-class Star Destroyer? Other than that, rock on!

yeah when I first saw that it was weird. Then again they could be referring to the ship in general; what with how big it apparently is and possible other options it has. And yes the Republic has ion cannons. That and no survivors, the fleets just disappear with no trace.

I'll admit I haven't seen the episodes, but are you sure it's not a scale issue. I mean it could that the Republic was well awere of the ion cannon techology (and used it), but they've not even though of using it on a scale needed to take out whole fleets on 1 shot (even the rebel ion cannon needed 2 hits to disable an IDS and it was a land based system)

the Republic DOES know of ion cannon technology and does use it, apparently the Republic is scared and surprised that it leaves no survivors behind, based off the holonet feed link provided earlier and the episode. Also the idea that it can disable those size taskforces (What? at most 5 Venators in close formation at once depending on how close the ships are together) with no trace of what it does; so the Republic thinks its fleets are simply disappearing could be unnerving too, especially repeated over time (even if they're relatively small fleets). And IIRC those disappearances were happening in the Inner Rim, pretty close to the Core Worlds who were afraid of feeling the war (probably was happening around the time Grievous fucked the core up given the ships seen in action; Venators weren't put into action until around the time of the Battle of Duro)

As far as droids getting promotions, it seems to me that in the Star Wars universe, droids get their memories wiped as a matter of routine so they don't begin to develop personalities. R2 was somewhat of an anomaly precisely because Luke refused to wipe R2's memory and he'd begun to develop more self-awareness and the like.

I believe it also depends on the droids used, time period, etc. During the Old Republic Jedi were very friendly to their droids too and based off some of the EU books (I believe The New Rebellion, not sure) does reference the New Republic having a strong pro-droid rights lobby so arguably there that would be limited.

[VT-16]

I find it interesting the droid commander on Rugosa (not Toydaria, it's not even in the same system), had to tell his troops multiple times to stop/start shooting. Did Dooku purposefully give a bad batch of droids to his "apprentice" just to humiliate her?

[Old Plympto]

Any idea which planet in the Abregado system that gas giant is? It shouldn't be Abregado-rae from Heir To The Empire.

[Murazor]

it does seem that was, given the insides of the cannon that apparently look just like the DS superlaser. Also doesn't the ring seem to grow a little? Or is that mainly perspective? Malevolence might be the Geonosian Dreadnought.

Given that space is a freaking big place and avoiding the remarkably limited fire arc of the weapon should be easy even using the most conservative figures of how fast Venators can move (unless the Malevolence can fire off-axis, like the DSII superlaser in anti-capship mode), I think that a growing ring would be more sensible if only because it allows the Separatists to cover more space (of course, that probably leads to range issues when the power intensity in the ring goes beyond a certain size, but that's another story entirely).

A quick rewatch of the chapter, however, gives no solid evidence either way and neither do the scenes of future chapters that can be seen in the series trailer in Youtube. Still, considering the size of the ring when it goes next to Plo Koon's ships (around 0:45 in this video) we are dealing with the first really large vessel of the PT period, if it turns out that there isn't "ring growth".

[Connor MacLeod]

I dont think there's any ring growth, at least it doesnt seem to grow any when they fire it on Anakin's ship later on in the episode. The thing also seems to behave like a projectile, given its odd shape and coherency despite a seemingly low velocity, as well as the fact it keeps up with Anakin's ship as if it were a projectile (Anakin isn't clearly outrunning it, but it doesn't overtake him.)

As for scaling cues.. one thing that is hinting (to me) at a large size is the planet(moon?)/sun in the background. You'd think if they were really really close it would take up more of the window than it does. The close-ups of the Malevolene certainly show that.

[VT-16]

It's made by Quarren builders on Pammant, like the Invisible Hand, so it's not a Geonosian Dreadnaught, which was also said to be spherical.

[Connor MacLeod]

Just as a rough idea I tried to scale it based on the Twilight being pursued by the ion shot, since that does not noticably "grow".. The Ring itself seems to be roughly at least 5-6 times the width of the Twilight, probably more like 10 and perhaps 15x wider (its hard to judge the distance of separation). The overall length of the Malevolence is about 13-14x that of that ion cannon "emitter".

I'd say given the above its at least a couple km long (I'd peg it at at least 3-4 km long) and possibly 8-10 km long (possibly more, but that's kinda iffy)

[Murazor]

I'd say given the above its at least a couple km long (I'd peg it at at least 3-4 km long) and possibly 8-10 km long (possibly more, but that's kinda iffy)

I daresay that two kilometers is too small. At this point, Ahsoka should know about Lucrehulk battleships (which are three kilometers long), yet she seems awed when she first sees the Malevolence by the sheer size of the thing.

Likewise, in that "A Galaxy Divided" radio thing it is pointed that a ion cannon capable of disabling entire taskforces in single-shots would have to be of "unreasonable" size (with eight, twelve and seventeen kilometers being pointed as possible figures). Ignoring the obvious irony about the size of the Executor, that suggests that none of the standard models of capship could generate as much power as the Malevolence (which should, in turn, be larger, unless it is packing some kind of experimental hypermatter reactor or something like that).

Hopefully, the next few chapters will solve our doubts about this. Frankly, I find myself liking its design, even if the normal turbolasers of the Malevolence seem to be a bit lighter than the kind of guns one would expect a dreadnought to carry.

[Saxtonite]

Given that space is a freaking big place and avoiding the remarkably limited fire arc of the weapon should be easy even using the most conservative figures of how fast Venators can move (unless the Malevolence can fire off-axis, like the DSII superlaser in anti-capship mode), I think that a growing ring would be more sensible if only because it allows the Separatists to cover more space (of course, that probably leads to range issues when the power intensity in the ring goes beyond a certain size, but that's another story entirely).

okay. But I think the maximum range would have to be a decent distance away given how strong the reactor apparently is (wasn't it the holonet that mentioned that). But yeah that does wonder how fast the recharge rates are.

A quick rewatch of the chapter, however, gives no solid evidence either way and neither do the scenes of future chapters that can be seen in the series trailer in Youtube. Still, considering the size of the ring when it goes next to Plo Koon's ships (around 0:45 in this video) we are dealing with the first really large vessel of the PT period, if it turns out that there isn't "ring growth".

oh okay. Well the first one shown on film. There were comics showing Kuat battleships of some sort that were big. and info on the Mandator, Mandator II and Procurator warships that were pretty big apparently.

I dont think there's any ring growth, at least it doesnt seem to grow any when they fire it on Anakin's ship later on in the episode.

maybe they can scale down the size or power of the shots.

As for scaling cues.. one thing that is hinting (to me) at a large size is the planet(moon?)/sun in the background.

I thought that was a sun of some sort, given how it glows from all directions. Probably something small like a Red (or Brown) Dwarf?

It's made by Quarren builders on Pammant, like the Invisible Hand, so it's not a Geonosian Dreadnaught, which was also said to be spherical.

wasn't that the core section that was spherical; not the whole ship?

I daresay that two kilometers is too small. At this point, Ahsoka should know about Lucrehulk battleships (which are three kilometers long), yet she seems awed when she first sees the Malevolence by the sheer size of the thing.

I don't know if this applies but Ashoka might not know about Ion Cannons based off the second ep, arguably that could be an intrepretation. Or she simply did not answer quick enough and say 'oh, okay' or something like that before the other guy explained ion cannons. If it's the former, arguably she does not know too much about space combat in general so we cant be sure if she knows about Lucrehulks.

[Darwin]

I find it interesting the droid commander on Rugosa (not Toydaria, it's not even in the same system), had to tell his troops multiple times to stop/start shooting. Did Dooku purposefully give a bad batch of droids to his "apprentice" just to humiliate her?

Ever play a RTS where your units won't fucking do what you tell them to, either hold their fire, or not pursue an enemy, even though you have all their general order settings right?

It's kind of like that.

I bet their pathing needs work, too.

I don't know if this applies but Ashoka might not know about Ion Cannons based off the second ep, arguably that could be an intrepretation. Or she simply did not answer quick enough and say 'oh, okay' or something like that before the other guy explained ion cannons. If it's the former, arguably she does not know too much about space combat in general so we cant be sure if she knows about Lucrehulks.

clearly Ashoka is there so they can explain things the audience might not be aware of. I don't have a big problem with her not knowing about ion cannons.

As for the Malevolence, I'd eyeball it around 4-5km. it's built around that wide-area ion superweapon, and I've noticed its multi-tier structure is built around giving a strong broadside. Considering it's being kept secret, Dooku and Grievous must be saving it for something special, cause why build a superweapon if you're not going to use it? I wonder what they have planned for it, considering it can disable small fleets in a single shot.

[seanrobertson]

Gents,

As best I can tell, the Databank underestimates the Twilight's size. Based on this picture ...



... it's 11.5m tall next to 1.8m tall clone troops. Moreover, we can deduce not only her width, but also establish a lower-limit for the ion shot's diameter, from this image:



Based on my height measurement, Twilight's closer to 44m port to starboard. (The Databank suggests she's 34m "long.") That would make the ion "ring" no less than ~220m wide. Since it's still easily a kilometer behind Twilight, there's no telling how conservative this might be.

Anyway, the episode gives us a great broadside shot of Maleovence ...



... in which her ion cannon port's diameter is exactly one-fifteenth her overall length. (Adam, 14x was DAMN close. Did you eyeball that?!)

Thus, Maleovence is NO LESS THAN 3.3 km long. I'd be surprised if it was much more than double that, but 5-6 km long is easily possible.

[Darwin]

Gents,

As best I can tell, the Databank underestimates the Twilight's size. Based on this picture ...
<SNIPPY>
Thus, Maleovence is NO LESS THAN 3.3 km long. I'd be surprised if it was much more than double that, but 5-6 km long is easily possible.

Great set of pics. Can we tell anything from the ion blast striking Plo Koon's fleet?

[Ender]

I think scaling based off the windows on the Malevolence would be the best route to go down, I'm personally expecting a length in the 2-3 km range. That said, based off sizes ranging from 3.3 km - 6 km I'd estimate her power at 3e25 to 1e26 based off the IH. That's cruiser to battlecruiser range, but most estimates on the Lucrehulk put it in the low to mid 10^26 range.

I discontinued my satire thread over copyright concerns, but all the scans are still up on my imageshack page if someone wants to try scaling from those.

[VT-16]

There's a card showing Venators being showered with turbolaser fire from the Malevolence. It seems the ship is behind those, which means the size (based on that round thing being towards the back of the vessel), is around 3-4 km at least.

[VT-16]

Dave Filoni interview.

Gives a nice hint at what's going to happen, and why the battle droids are so goofy now.

And the Battle Droids are interesting. My take on the Battle Droids, personally, is that the standard Battle Droids were built at a time before war. They were built to protect freighter convoys. That lends a bit to their goofiness. They’re not a serious as the world that’s coming, the world of the Empire. I think as we move forward in the war you start to see that the droids start to change. Not necessarily the “Roger, Roger” droids, but the Super Battle Droids are already more menacing than the regular Battle Droids and the Destroyer Droids are more menacing than the Super Battle Droids. And we have more diabolical droids. It’s kind of like as the war goes on, the Jedi don’t realize the serious nature of the Universe being created around them by all of these evil forces. It’s a progressive thing and at the point that we’re at right now, we’re kind of more in the high-time adventure part of The Clone Wars, where maybe it will end in a month or two, at least that the Jedi hope.

[clone1051]

Hopefully, the next few chapters will solve our doubts about this. Frankly, I find myself liking its design, even if the normal turbolasers of the Malevolence seem to be a bit lighter than the kind of guns one would expect a dreadnought to carry.

Maybe it has smaller guns because of the huge power requirements of the bigass ion cannon. A gun that big has to have a pretty high power consumption.


P.S. Dammit, they changed the turbolaser sound effects! The turbolaser sound in the movies was much cooler.

[Braedley]

Hopefully, the next few chapters will solve our doubts about this. Frankly, I find myself liking its design, even if the normal turbolasers of the Malevolence seem to be a bit lighter than the kind of guns one would expect a dreadnought to carry.

Maybe it has smaller guns because of the huge power requirements of the bigass ion cannon. A gun that big has to have a pretty high power consumption.

Who needs huge turbolasers when you render an entire fleet defenseless in one shot?