Microsoft is forcing users to upgrade to Windows 10

[Purple]

You don't have to turn off automatic updates entirely. They changed it to a "recommended" update, so all you have to do is change your update settings to uncheck the box that says to treat recommended updates the same as important updates. That way you still get security patches and don't have to worry about having Win10 foisted on you.

Or you could switch to an operating system that doesn't require you to manually vet every patch released for it in case it's trying to force you to install software you don't want.

What's the alternative though? Linux is user unfriendly and frankly not suitable for the kind of user that can't wrap his technical skills around changing a setting in the windows control panel. And Macs are Macs. As in a completely different thing to everything a windows user is used to down to the point where switching over is going to be painful. And this is before we get into software compatibility issues.

[Jaepheth]

I went ahead and switched to 10.

The switch was pretty painless and the new OS seems to run well. I've disabled as much of the data mining stuff as I can, but I still don't trust that I got everything. I'd switch to a Linux distro in a heartbeat if 90% of my PC use wasn't gaming.

[SpottedKitty]

Just like I want to be able to use that bandwidth for downloading things I actually want to use, not files Microsoft decided it wants to disseminate off-site.

That touches on something else I've seen commented on in the months since the actual release — unless you know which setting to toggle, and it isn't named very clearly or particularly easy to find, the Win10 installer will be made available to upload from your computer to other potential upgraders, "to even out bandwidth use" or somesuch explanation.

Yes, Microsoft wants your computer to become a torrent node.

Still trust them with your HD space, bandwidth, and personal data?

[TheFeniX]

In other words, you have to know what you are doing in order to stay anywhere near clear of this and most people are just completely all thumbs (in the amputated hand) when it comes to using computers. Frankly, Windows 7 is aging badly and Windows 8 is in all ways inferior to Windows 10, especially the user interface.

Just want to comment here: Windows 10 does seem to have some problems in the networking department. Having connection issues (such as your ISP maybe having a DNS server down or heavy congestion) can cause Windows 10 to essentially lock up for extended periods. My dad was having ISP problems at home. My W10 laptop Explorer locked up after connecting to his Wifi. His W8 Lenovo just couldn't get on the VPN, but was otherwise working fine. Once I was finally able to get it to disconnect, everything on my laptop worked fine.

It always worries my when an OS starts failing to do basic shit when unrelated issues are present. Vista did this a lot. Windows Me..... ugh, all the time.

And, oh yea, the VPN configuration of Windows 10 is still bullshit. The advanced options are anything but, one configuration button (where you would normally find "use default gateway on remote network" still does not work. And just the VPN interface is still clunky as Hell when compared to W7/W8. This shit really needs to be fixed because I should not be manually editing RPK files in 2016. You tried explaining that to a remote use over the phone? That was an eternity lasting 15 minutes.

I like W10 for home use, but in an enterprise environment: they really need to clean some of this nitpicky shit up. But it makes sense they are pushing it like crack onto home users.

[Elheru Aran]

So... am I totally off base for wanting to just avoid upgrading to Win10 for as long as I pretty much can (think at least a year or two, which is probably how much longer before I buy another computer)? I'm currently on 7 and like it just fine...

[Dragon Angel]

The thing that really bugs me about using Windows 10 is probably going to be mandatory automatic installation of Windows updates, instead of allowing me to install and restart at my own time. I do get why Microsoft wants this to happen, because people who aren't tech savvy tend to not update much (or at all), but I have two problems here:

1. If it automatically installs, the system will be put into an unknown and potentially unstable state where some programs use the old version of a patched executable / library in memory, and other programs use the newer version.
2. If it automatically installs, the system will restart itself automatically to correct 1, but if you had unsaved work then you're absolutely screwed. Not to mention reloading each problem individually, if you had a workspace already set up...

These are why I've never had a fully automatic setting in place. As I understand it, 2 can be mitigated by telling Windows to notify you before restarting, but from other people's reports the notification does not assume you do not want to delay and thus Windows will end up restarting your computer anyway if you were not attending it. Either because you're sleeping, or you're out of the house, or ... any reason really.

The way I've read, only Windows 10 Pro allows you to configure Windows updates beyond this forced default? Or it still doesn't at all, I've been reading vastly conflicting reports. So my question is: Will I be able to configure Windows update to potentially automatically download but not install and/or restart on install, and if I can, is this feature only available on Pro or is it available in the consumer edition too?

If I can't, then I guess manually enabling and disabling the Windows Update service will have to be my solution.

[Elheru Aran]

Isn't the update generally just 10 Home? Or do you get updated to whatever matches your current version of Windows, like if you have 8 Pro you get 10 Pro or whatever?

[Tribble]

In addition to what others have said, privacy is a big issue as well. Of course, other versions of windows have probably been sending all your info to MS but WIndows 10 is the most brazen about it. By default pretty much everything you do is recorded, logged, and sent to MS, including keystrokes and even voice recordings (if you have Cortana enabled). You have to wade through several screens to turn all that crap off, and there have been a couple occasions where I've noticed that after an update some of the settings were set to on again. Oh, and btw, a couple of the settings can only be switched off from an external website. And that's assuming the settings actually work as intended, there's some evidence suggesting that Windows 10 is sending some of the data anyways.

Also by default Windows 10 uses your internet connection to download copies of WIndows 10 onto other computers. Ya.

The user agreement has some... interesting features. Take privacy for example:

"We will access, disclose and preserve personal data, including your content (such as the content of your emails, other private communications or files in private folders), when we have a good faith belief that doing so is necessary to protect our customers or enforce the terms governing the use of the services."

Do you want to rely on Microsoft's "good faith"? I don't think previous versions of Windows had a catch-all like that.

Or how about intellectual property rights?

"When you share Your Content with other people, you expressly agree that anyone you’ve shared Your Content with may, for free and worldwide, use, save, record, reproduce, transmit, display, communicate … Your Content. If you do not want others to have that ability, do not use the Services to share Your Content.”

“you grant Microsoft a worldwide and royalty free intellectual property licence to use Your Content, for example, to make copies of, retain, transmit, reformat, distribute via communication tools and display Your Content on the Services. If you publish Your Content in areas of the Service where it is rendered available online publicly or without restrictions, Your Content may appear in demonstrations or materials that promote the Service.”

Again, not sure about the agreement in previous versions of Windows, though I haven't found anything yet to suggest they are as extensive as that.

Based on the user agreement I've been advised not to use Windows 10 as I would be at serious risk of breaching client privilege.

And let's talk about the updates. In Windows 10 all updates and upgrades are mandatory, and if you're stuck with 10 Home they are downloaded and installed the moment they become available. Updates in 10 Pro are also downloaded and installed immediately, though you can "defer" an upgrade for an unspecified amount of time. Don't want to be a guinea pig? Too bad. Have software / hardware that suddenly becomes unusable due to an update? Too bad - if you roll back the update which caused the problem, Win 10 will apparently keep downloading and installing the update over and over again. Don't want new features which bloat your computer / slow it down / spy on you? Too bad - again, everything is mandatory, whether you like it or not.

For most users I doubt this matters much, but I'm not a fan of it.

Isn't the update generally just 10 Home? Or do you get updated to whatever matches your current version of Windows, like if you have 8 Pro you get 10 Pro or whatever?

You get upgraded to whatever version matches your current version. From what I can tell, the main differences between 10 Home and 10 Pro is that 10 Pro does not have ads by default (it's pretty pathetic that's now considered a selling point) and that you can defer major upgrades (though not updates) for an unspecified amount of time. You're still forced to have the major upgrades, but only after all the 10 Home losers users have kindly worked out some of the bugs for you. Won't help much if its bloatware though.

[Rogue 9]

My parents have a Windows 10 laptop. It refuses to recognize the printer on their network. My Windows 7 machine sees and uses it without problems. The fact that they shipped with a bug that big and basic is more than enough reason for me to not update all by itself.

[Flagg]

It's funny that I've had Windows 10 from day one and have yet to experience any of the "issues" described. Is there some other "Windows 10" OS put out by MS I haven't heard of? But then again, I don't demand that modern Operating Systems cater to a need (that I don't have, and if I did it would be totally unreasonable) to use ancient, obsolete software because I refuse to learn to use far superior versions.

Do you get angry at not being able to purchase carbon filament light bulbs, too?

[Rogue 9]

If that was addressed at me, it's a brand new printer. There's nothing "ancient and obsolete" here; insisting that printers hooked to it are offline or in error state is a known issue with Windows 10, which is flatly unacceptable.

[Executor32]

Isn't the update generally just 10 Home? Or do you get updated to whatever matches your current version of Windows, like if you have 8 Pro you get 10 Pro or whatever?

Here's a handy chart:



If you're still running Windows 8 or 8 Pro (WHY?), you won't get the 'Get Windows 10' tray icon unless you update to 8.1, but you can still just upgrade manually by downloading the Windows 10 Media Creation Tool.

[Flagg]

If that was addressed at me, it's a brand new printer. There's nothing "ancient and obsolete" here; insisting that printers hooked to it are offline or in error state is a known issue with Windows 10, which is flatly unacceptable.

Since printers are hardware I don't see how on Earth it could have been directed at you. It was mainly directed at Korto, who thinks a modern OS in 2016 should be able to run 16 year old software because he doesn't want to learn how to use newer (and better) versions of said software. It's like demanding modern cars come equipped with a fucking steam engine.

And if your wifi sucks, invest in a better router. Mine is a shitty $50 Belkin that works fine in a house with thick walls that my previous, 7 year old, and far shittier $50 Belkin worked like shit in.

The printer issue (and as I previously said, the sneaky way MS is going about rolling out 10, which is shitty, but no worse than what most other giant corporations do, well unless you count car companies which routinely knowingly release vehicles that are potential death traps or lie about MPG like VW) is valid, though. I had that problem with Windows 8 though, so I don't know if it's relegated to Windows 10.

[Hillary]

My parents have a Windows 10 laptop. It refuses to recognize the printer on their network. My Windows 7 machine sees and uses it without problems. The fact that they shipped with a bug that big and basic is more than enough reason for me to not update all by itself.

We had the same with our printer - again a fairly new one - and it also knocked our email out for some reason. We went back to 8 and are waiting for 10.1 before we attempt the upgrade again.

[Broomstick]

Since printers are hardware I don't see how on Earth it could have been directed at you. It was mainly directed at Korto, who thinks a modern OS in 2016 should be able to run 16 year old software because he doesn't want to learn how to use newer (and better) versions of said software. It's like demanding modern cars come equipped with a fucking steam engine.

There's a problem with proprietary, custom, and legacy software used in business, that may be essential to the way a business runs, that doesn't have an upgrade - it would be stupid to upgrade a business to Windows 10 if it would shut you down for an unknown period of time.

Also, saying "upgrade to current" is one thing, but some types of software require MONEY to do this, again, some for some software that can run to thousands of dollars. Is it that unreasonable for someone who may need to do this to way to schedule an upgrade when convenient for them, AFTER they've made the purchases of new software and not before?

Maybe you don't give a fuck about surrendering control over what is supposed to be your property to a corporation that, frankly, doesn't give a fuck about you, and surrendering your privacy, but not everyone is so complacent. Works for you? Great. Not so much for some other people.

When you have a household like mine, where some of the income comes from creative work, and that runs a small business off the home computers, that user agreement is a disaster - the usurpation of copyright and intellectual property is obscene from our viewpoint. Microsoft is making a grab not only at control of peoples' computers but also anything they do/create with those computers. That's horseshit and makes me want to NEVER upgrade the computer I do writing and artwork on to Windows 10 (which is fine, actually - I still know writers who use 20 year old wordprocessing tech because, honestly, that's all that's needed to get the job done. Actually, the software I was using back in 1985 would suffice for writing purposes).

[Purple]

Once again I agree with broom but I would like to add something of utmost importance. Software versions are not dictated by your desires but by the coworker/office machine with the oldest version. It's all fantastic having the latest and greatest of office software but not if you have to exchange saved files with someone stuck in the 90's. And you would be surprised at just how much this is a thing.

[Zaune]

What's the alternative though? Linux is user unfriendly and frankly not suitable for the kind of user that can't wrap his technical skills around changing a setting in the windows control panel. And Macs are Macs. As in a completely different thing to everything a windows user is used to down to the point where switching over is going to be painful. And this is before we get into software compatibility issues.

If we're dealing with someone so utterly tech-ignorant that they can't even figure out Control Panel then they're no worse off with something like Ubuntu than Win 10. I can also think of at least two popular desktop environments for Linux that do a better job of being familiar to people transitioning from good old XP than 8.1 did.

And software compatibility is nowhere near as big an issue as you make it out to be. Chrome and Firefox work the same on all platforms, LibreOffice does everything a home or small business user could ever need from it, Netflix is getting rid of Silverlight and going to HTML 5... What's that leave, TurboTax?

[Korto]

It was mainly directed at Korto, who thinks a modern OS in 2016 should be able to run 16 year old software because he doesn't want to learn how to use newer (and better) versions of said software. It's like demanding modern cars come equipped with a fucking steam engine.

Oh, sorry. Missed that in your subtle nuance.

It's funny that I've had Windows 10 from day one and have yet to experience any of the "issues" described. Is there some other "Windows 10" OS put out by MS I haven't heard of? But then again, I don't demand that modern Operating Systems cater to a need (that I don't have, and if I did it would be totally unreasonable) to use ancient, obsolete software because I refuse to learn to use far superior versions.

Do you get angry at not being able to purchase carbon filament light bulbs, too?

So, first off, we have the assumption here that since you, Flagg, sample size one, hasn't had any problems, than anyone else who has experienced problems must be doing it wrong or something. Because no one else could ever have different components than you, or a different set up than you.

Nice analogy with the light bulb, though. That's good. Because there's so many similarities between a light bulb and software, let's list them:
1) Light bulbs have a short life span, die, and need to be replaced.
2) Light bulbs do one thing, and don't come packed with more and more 'features' every year.
3) Old light bulbs use far more energy than new light bulbs, and therefore have a measurable effect upon the environment.
4) When I use a new light bulb, I can plug it into the same, hundred year old, socket, and I don't need to rewire the entire house.
5) When I plug in a new light bulb, I don't have to worry about the fridge stopping working for some obscure reason.
Oh, sorry; light bulbs and software don't seem to have very many things in common at all, do they?


So, what are these marvellous new features in Office that will be so useful to me, at home, writing short stories, that make it worth spending hundreds of dollars on? What makes the new "far superior" to me? What fantastic features does the new Visual Basic have for me to make it worth spending half a frigging grand?

[Korto]

double post

[Broomstick]

And software compatibility is nowhere near as big an issue as you make it out to be. Chrome and Firefox work the same on all platforms, LibreOffice does everything a home or small business user could ever need from it, Netflix is getting rid of Silverlight and going to HTML 5... What's that leave, TurboTax?

What's that leave?

Art and design software, which typically is hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars to upgrade

Same applies to, say, musicians utilizing sound and composition software.

Software to run things, like, for example our computer controlled lathe, which hasn't been upgraded since the 1990's and won't be upgraded, ever. Software for our computer controlled router has not been tested for Win 10 capability either, and no one who owns one wants to go first for fear of screwing up their system.

Larger businesses might be looking at a cost of millions to upgrade everyone to the same level of machine and software not because individual units are so costly but because they have so many of them.

But hey, fuck anyone who isn't a traditional paper-pushing business, right? Fuck those producers of actual products rather than service providers. They don't matter, especially the smaller ones who struggle to pay for things as it is without needing to fork over thousands for "upgrades" that don't actually provide any improvement or greater utility to them.

Oh, and by the way - the above are exactly the people who have the strongest objections to their data being stored off-site out of their control and the user agreement that amounts to a grab on intellectual property rights.

[Flagg]

Since printers are hardware I don't see how on Earth it could have been directed at you. It was mainly directed at Korto, who thinks a modern OS in 2016 should be able to run 16 year old software because he doesn't want to learn how to use newer (and better) versions of said software. It's like demanding modern cars come equipped with a fucking steam engine.

There's a problem with proprietary, custom, and legacy software used in business, that may be essential to the way a business runs, that doesn't have an upgrade - it would be stupid to upgrade a business to Windows 10 if it would shut you down for an unknown period of time.

Also, saying "upgrade to current" is one thing, but some types of software require MONEY to do this, again, some for some software that can run to thousands of dollars. Is it that unreasonable for someone who may need to do this to way to schedule an upgrade when convenient for them, AFTER they've made the purchases of new software and not before?

Maybe you don't give a fuck about surrendering control over what is supposed to be your property to a corporation that, frankly, doesn't give a fuck about you, and surrendering your privacy, but not everyone is so complacent. Works for you? Great. Not so much for some other people.

When you have a household like mine, where some of the income comes from creative work, and that runs a small business off the home computers, that user agreement is a disaster - the usurpation of copyright and intellectual property is obscene from our viewpoint. Microsoft is making a grab not only at control of peoples' computers but also anything they do/create with those computers. That's horseshit and makes me want to NEVER upgrade the computer I do writing and artwork on to Windows 10 (which is fine, actually - I still know writers who use 20 year old wordprocessing tech because, honestly, that's all that's needed to get the job done. Actually, the software I was using back in 1985 would suffice for writing purposes).

Then google "how not to upgrade to Windows 10" like I already fucking said. No one has a fucking gun to your head, and if you're able to operate said software, then you should be more than capable of turning off upgrades. Otherwise it's just whining about evil old Microsoft or ludditism.

[Dragon Angel]

What's that leave?

Art and design software, which typically is hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars to upgrade

Same applies to, say, musicians utilizing sound and composition software.

I can seriously confirm this. There are old software packages in digital media still in use like older versions of Creative Suite, that have bad forward compatibility with newer versions of Windows and OS X, and that would be incredibly expensive to upgrade from on the massive scale of a corporate. In Creative Suite's example, now that Adobe is trying its damn hardest to push Creative Cloud and leave Creative Suite out to history (not entirely successfully so far) that has become even harder. Creative Cloud's model simply does not work for many companies, and while it is very convenient on an individual consumer level, on the corporate level it tends to be unbelievably obstructive.

Let's not even get into packages like Autodesk's software either. Oh boy.

Software to run things, like, for example our computer controlled lathe, which hasn't been upgraded since the 1990's and won't be upgraded, ever. Software for our computer controlled router has not been tested for Win 10 capability either, and no one who owns one wants to go first for fear of screwing up their system.

Larger businesses might be looking at a cost of millions to upgrade everyone to the same level of machine and software not because individual units are so costly but because they have so many of them.

Having been reading Microsoft blogs (especially The Old New Thing; I really recommend people check it out) I've learned plenty about changes to the Windows kernel. Manufacturers of drivers for hardware have to definitely put effort into making them compatible with newer versions of Windows, since a lot can make a driver even incompatible between releases as close as 2000 and XP.

Upgrading machines is definitely not trivial. The costs can become exponential fast.

[Flagg]

It was mainly directed at Korto, who thinks a modern OS in 2016 should be able to run 16 year old software because he doesn't want to learn how to use newer (and better) versions of said software. It's like demanding modern cars come equipped with a fucking steam engine.

Oh, sorry. Missed that in your subtle nuance.

It's funny that I've had Windows 10 from day one and have yet to experience any of the "issues" described. Is there some other "Windows 10" OS put out by MS I haven't heard of? But then again, I don't demand that modern Operating Systems cater to a need (that I don't have, and if I did it would be totally unreasonable) to use ancient, obsolete software because I refuse to learn to use far superior versions.

Do you get angry at not being able to purchase carbon filament light bulbs, too?

So, first off, we have the assumption here that since you, Flagg, sample size one, hasn't had any problems, than anyone else who has experienced problems must be doing it wrong or something. Because no one else could ever have different components than you, or a different set up than you.

Nice analogy with the light bulb, though. That's good. Because there's so many similarities between a light bulb and software, let's list them:
1) Light bulbs have a short life span, die, and need to be replaced.
2) Light bulbs do one thing, and don't come packed with more and more 'features' every year.
3) Old light bulbs use far more energy than new light bulbs, and therefore have a measurable effect upon the environment.
4) When I use a new light bulb, I can plug it into the same, hundred year old, socket, and I don't need to rewire the entire house.
5) When I plug in a new light bulb, I don't have to worry about the fridge stopping working for some obscure reason.
Oh, sorry; light bulbs and software don't seem to have very many things in common at all, do they?

I see hyperbole fails you. Magnificent.

And it's not "Flagg, sample size of one", it's the vast majority of people who aren't crippled by a fear of learning new things, which is what your unreasonable complaining boils down to. It's like whining about how new PC and console games don't run on Windows 98 with a Voodoo 3D Graphics card or a Sega Saturn. It's unreasonable.

So, what are these marvellous new features in Office that will be so useful to me, at home, writing short stories, that make it worth spending hundreds of dollars on? What makes the new "far superior" to me? What fantastic features does the new Visual Basic have for me to make it worth spending half a frigging grand?

Why do you need office to write short stories when software that comes free with Windows works just fine?
I can't comment on Visual Basic, but if it's a hobby, then spend the $500 like everyone else who has a hobby using PC's and doesn't upgrade for a decade and a half and suddenly finds that their old, obsolete shit is no longer supported. If it's used for professional reasons, then consider it an investment and take the tax write off, since businesses are forced to upgrade to new tech all the fucking time. It's the cost of doing business.

[Enigma]

It was mainly directed at Korto, who thinks a modern OS in 2016 should be able to run 16 year old software because he doesn't want to learn how to use newer (and better) versions of said software. It's like demanding modern cars come equipped with a fucking steam engine.

Oh, sorry. Missed that in your subtle nuance.

It's funny that I've had Windows 10 from day one and have yet to experience any of the "issues" described. Is there some other "Windows 10" OS put out by MS I haven't heard of? But then again, I don't demand that modern Operating Systems cater to a need (that I don't have, and if I did it would be totally unreasonable) to use ancient, obsolete software because I refuse to learn to use far superior versions.

Do you get angry at not being able to purchase carbon filament light bulbs, too?

So, first off, we have the assumption here that since you, Flagg, sample size one, hasn't had any problems, than anyone else who has experienced problems must be doing it wrong or something. Because no one else could ever have different components than you, or a different set up than you.
<snip>

Make that two since I've stated a few times regarding 10 that I've never had an issue with it. More so after installing DoNotSpy10.

[Flagg]

What's that leave?

Art and design software, which typically is hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars to upgrade

Same applies to, say, musicians utilizing sound and composition software.

I can seriously confirm this. There are old software packages in digital media still in use like older versions of Creative Suite, that have bad forward compatibility with newer versions of Windows and OS X, and that would be incredibly expensive to upgrade from on the massive scale of a corporate. In Creative Suite's example, now that Adobe is trying its damn hardest to push Creative Cloud and leave Creative Suite out to history (not entirely successfully so far) that has become even harder. Creative Cloud's model simply does not work for many companies, and while it is very convenient on an individual consumer level, on the corporate level it tends to be unbelievably obstructive.

Let's not even get into packages like Autodesk's software either. Oh boy.

Software to run things, like, for example our computer controlled lathe, which hasn't been upgraded since the 1990's and won't be upgraded, ever. Software for our computer controlled router has not been tested for Win 10 capability either, and no one who owns one wants to go first for fear of screwing up their system.

Larger businesses might be looking at a cost of millions to upgrade everyone to the same level of machine and software not because individual units are so costly but because they have so many of them.

Having been reading Microsoft blogs (especially The Old New Thing; I really recommend people check it out) I've learned plenty about changes to the Windows kernel. Manufacturers of drivers for hardware have to definitely put effort into making them compatible with newer versions of Windows, since a lot can make a driver even incompatible between releases as close as 2000 and XP.

Upgrading machines is definitely not trivial. The costs can become exponential fast.

It's the cost of doing business. And yes, demanding that new Operating Systems cater to people who have refused to upgrade thier software in a decade and a half is totally unreasonable.