Ukraine reacts to fears of Russian invasion as troops build up at the border

[Col. Crackpot]

Fucking hilarious.

This is essentially my big fear here, though. That we're going to forget all of this next time an American president does the same fucking thing to people who aren't white and European. I don't really have any hope it will be any other way, but I'm still afraid.

Just look at some Western news at how they are reporting the war in Ukraine.

It's "different from Iraq and Syria" because Ukrainians are "people just like us". Too many Westerners subconsciously cannot help themselves from racism.

I am not naïve enough to dispute that. But we would also be remiss if we did not at least acknowledge both the physical proximity of Ukraine to the Eurozone, and how recently the Eastern flank of it was under the boot of the Soviet empire. Poland has a neighbor in flames and they legitimately fear that they are next. Ditto the Balkans. They all have Soviet oppression in recent memory, as does half of Germany.

Not to mention the balkans…

Is there unconscious bias or even racism here? Absolutely. But let’s not be so intellectually lazy that we ignore the other huge factors.

[Col. Crackpot]

I meant ditto the Baltics . Too late to edit

[Broomstick]

I think we can all acknowledge both the sins and crimes of the past, the racism that can be found in any nation or group of people, and still try to find some resolution to the on-going catastrophe in Ukraine that doesn't end with everyone and everything in flames.

Putin is trying to use the sins and crimes of others to justify this atrocity because he is a sick fucker who doesn't give a goddamned shit about anyone but himself and will use the empathy of others against them. That's the difference between him and most of the rest of the world.

[The Infidel]

So, I read in Norwegian news that Ukraine has asked to be a member of the EU. I... OK.... I hope it won't get approved until after (if) Ukraine wins this war. I don't know how making Ukraine a member of the EU will help anything. Would they get approval if not for the war? I'm not sure I like the idea of Russia actually invading an EU country and possible reactions from EU. There is a fine line between justified response and "let's see how much we can dick around with Putin", and I feel we're getting close to the latter in some respects. We have to remember that Russia is a superpower with nuclear weapons, and not some "backwater place" like Iraq or Afghanistan. Putin is in a corner now, and I don't see any way he can back down now with his honor intact, and a cornered bear can act unpredictable and do silly things.

[Gandalf]

Just look at some Western news at how they are reporting the war in Ukraine.

It's "different from Iraq and Syria" because Ukrainians are "people just like us". Too many Westerners subconsciously cannot help themselves from racism.

I think in addition to that, it's also getting a lot of people's old Cold War boners back. The War of Terror had an I'll defined opponent with no borders, capital, or infrastructure. Russia has all of those things, and their victims in this case are white people.

[Sidewinder]

Ukrainian border guards are preventing Africans living in that nation, from exiting to Poland, as noted in The Week article "Africans fleeing Ukraine report experiencing racial discrimination at Poland border" and the Business Insider article "African students fleeing the Russian invasion say they have been prevented from crossing to Poland due to a 'Ukrainians first' policy".

What the fuck do these Ukrainians expect these foreigners to do? Bear weapons and fight for a country whose own countrymen are unwilling to fight for, as demonstrated by the many Ukrainians fleeing from the war zones?

[Sidewinder]

EU is giving fighter jets to Ukraine.

That may be debunked.

Su-27 Returning From Romania Will Likely Be The Last Fighter Ukraine Gets For Some Time
As a lone Su-27 returns from Romania, it's becoming clear that the restocking of Ukraine's fighter fleet is unlikely to happen.

BY BRETT TINGLEY AND TYLER ROGOWAY
MARCH 1, 2022

A Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker belonging to the Ukrainian Air Force has left Romania on its way back to its war-torn home. The aircraft landed in Romania on February 24 for unknown reasons. The jet's return comes as a proposed plan for European Union nations to donate dozens of fighter aircraft to Ukraine has been confirmed as a non-starter for the nations involved. A European Union official first announced the plan on February 27, but it soon became clear that the details of the deal made it increasingly implausible, as you can read about in our previous analysis on the proposal.

<Snip.>

The next day, additional details surfaced that Ukraine could receive as many as 70 aircraft familiar to the Ukrainian Air Force, indicating they would likely be MiG-29 and Su-25 jets from Poland, Slovakia, and Bulgaria. However, as The War Zone previously pointed out, the 70 aircraft figure was more than the total number of planes those countries have available. Moreso, this would leave two of these countries with none to nearly no fighter aircraft at all, as modern replacements are still some time out from arriving.

Today, however, CNN’s Natasha Bertrand said that Polish President Andrzej Duda announced the decision not to send jets into Ukrainian airspace.

Politico's Paul McLeary likewise reports today that the refusal on Slovakia's behalf is also official, citing an unnamed Slovakian defense ministry spokesperson.

Meanwhile, Bulgarian news outlet Novinite reported yesterday that Bulgaria’s Prime Minister Kiril Petkov called the idea “completely absurd,” stating his country did not have enough planes or parts to give away.

Polish President Andrzej Duda spoke to reporters alongside NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg at Łask Air Base in Poland where the two stressed that the alliance would not risk getting embroiled in the military conflict between Russia and Ukraine, and therefore would not be sending aircraft to aid Ukrainian forces. “NATO is not going to be part of the conflict,” Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said today while visiting Poland. “So NATO is not going to send troops into Ukraine or move planes into Ukrainian airspace.”

[EnterpriseSovereign]

So, I read in Norwegian news that Ukraine has asked to be a member of the EU. I... OK.... I hope it won't get approved until after (if) Ukraine wins this war. I don't know how making Ukraine a member of the EU will help anything. Would they get approval if not for the war? I'm not sure I like the idea of Russia actually invading an EU country and possible reactions from EU. There is a fine line between justified response and "let's see how much we can dick around with Putin", and I feel we're getting close to the latter in some respects. We have to remember that Russia is a superpower with nuclear weapons, and not some "backwater place" like Iraq or Afghanistan. Putin is in a corner now, and I don't see any way he can back down now with his honor intact, and a cornered bear can act unpredictable and do silly things.

A corner that he has painted himself into at that.

[KraytKing]

What the fuck do these Ukrainians expect these foreigners to do? Bear weapons and fight for a country whose own countrymen are unwilling to fight for, as demonstrated by the many Ukrainians fleeing from the war zones?

Big fucking difference between the two. One group are soldiers, the others are civilians. If Ukrainian soldiers were throwing down their weapons while begging Europe for help, you would have a point. If Zelenskyy was calling for non-military foreigners to come fight, you would have a point. But neither of those are true. You sound like a cunt.

This of course completely ignores the significant number of Ukrainians who aren't fleeing and ARE fighting, or Ukrainians who don't even live in Ukraine and are coming home to fight. Your comment is shit.

So, I read in Norwegian news that Ukraine has asked to be a member of the EU. I... OK.... I hope it won't get approved until after (if) Ukraine wins this war. I don't know how making Ukraine a member of the EU will help anything. Would they get approval if not for the war? I'm not sure I like the idea of Russia actually invading an EU country and possible reactions from EU. There is a fine line between justified response and "let's see how much we can dick around with Putin", and I feel we're getting close to the latter in some respects. We have to remember that Russia is a superpower with nuclear weapons, and not some "backwater place" like Iraq or Afghanistan. Putin is in a corner now, and I don't see any way he can back down now with his honor intact, and a cornered bear can act unpredictable and do silly things.

I think the key aspect there is that Putin is in a corner. This war seems to be another step in revealing just how much of an autocrat Putin is, which means Russia is completely unpredictable. They aren't beholden to the rules of statecraft anymore; a functioning bureaucracy would back down, but a lone man nearing the end of his life and holding absolute power can do anything.

Absolutely agree though. Still can't have a war between nuclear powers, and definitely don't want to give Putin more of a "look at everyone (including Germany) teaming up on us." He's absolutely going to say that, it'd be more believable if Russians were fighting those guys in the field. Hope that Ukraine gets membership if they win the war, though, it would help a lot with rebuilding.

This is a pretty simplistic take, but I think there need to be more fuckin military alliances than just NATO. NATO is quite clearly just an extension of the American empire; I can understand Russia not wanting bordering Ukraine to be a part of it, since it would 100% mean a boosted American ability to be imperialist in the region. But what option did they have? We're seeing that small countries can fuck up big ones as long as their military is incompetent enough, alliances don't need America, Russia, or China to be effective anymore. This is thinking in video game terms, but honestly, a defense agreement between Ukraine, Poland, and someone else close by (Germany? Romania?) would thoroughly deter Russian imperialism while also being no threat to Russia the way NATO is.

[Elfdart]

Well if lying about WMD in Iraq managed to convince a large part of the Western public to support the invasion, there's no reason why the neo-nazi propaganda won't work as well.

One major difference: There really are a bunch of state-sponsored Nazi death squads in Ukraine. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq, no WMDs and no links to the 9/11 attacks. Not that it matters all that much: Even though invading another country is itself a war crime, it's not like Bush-era war criminals are wearing the Mark Of Cain for their evil deeds. In fact, many of them are enjoying newly found popularity with shit-libs like the ones at CNN and MSNBC. Twenty years from now, Putin will probably be a beloved game show host.

I’m ashamed of my support the Iraq war. Ashamed. That’s how you should feel right now. If you don’t, you will someday.

I don't feel any shame because I didn't support Putin's invasion, numbnuts (in fact, I didn't think he'd do it). This is just projection on your part.

[Sidewinder]

What the fuck do these Ukrainians expect these foreigners to do? Bear weapons and fight for a country whose own countrymen are unwilling to fight for, as demonstrated by the many Ukrainians fleeing from the war zones?

Big fucking difference between the two. One group are soldiers, the others are civilians.

Read the articles I posted. Ukrainian border guards are preventing Nigerian and Indian students- non-white, foreign civilians- from leaving Ukraine and entering Poland. Why would Ukrainian border guards prevent non-Ukrainian civilians from leaving? THAT'S why I'm upset.

You sound like a cunt.

Takes one to know one, cunt.

[Gandalf]

KraytKing might be responding to the part where you mention "a country whose own countrymen are unwilling to fight for." Phraseology like that is sometimes used to condemn those fleeing such situations.

[Gandalf]

One major difference: There really are a bunch of state-sponsored Nazi death squads in Ukraine. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq, no WMDs and no links to the 9/11 attacks. Not that it matters all that much: Even though invading another country is itself a war crime, it's not like Bush-era war criminals are wearing the Mark Of Cain for their evil deeds. In fact, many of them are enjoying newly found popularity with shit-libs like the ones at CNN and MSNBC. Twenty years from now, Putin will probably be a beloved game show host.

Come 2024 and it's Biden versus Eric Trump or whomever, we may see George W Bush take a break from his MSNBC show to give an address at the Democratic Convention, as the Democrats try to reach out to moderate Qanons. AOC gets ninety seconds in a bad timeslot. His Bushisms will be beloved, as he urged everyone to not get fooled again with Trump.

Everyone who disagrees is labelled a North Korean bot.

[KraytKing]

What the fuck do these Ukrainians expect these foreigners to do? Bear weapons and fight for a country whose own countrymen are unwilling to fight for, as demonstrated by the many Ukrainians fleeing from the war zones?

Big fucking difference between the two. One group are soldiers, the others are civilians.

Read the articles I posted. Ukrainian border guards are preventing Nigerian and Indian students- non-white, foreign civilians- from leaving Ukraine and entering Poland. Why would Ukrainian border guards prevent non-Ukrainian civilians from leaving? THAT'S why I'm upset.

You sound like a cunt.

Takes one to know one, cunt.

I was, in fact, responding as Gandalf suggested. Which was a mistake; rereading your post, it seems I had conflated your statements with someone else's above, and interpreted you as criticizing Ukraine's call for international aid. That was incorrect, I apologize.

Nowhere in those articles is there any claim of forcing the detained refugees to fight, or really do anything other than wait. It is racism, pure and simple, but I believe borne of fears raised by the quotas neighboring countries have declared. If five million people might flee, and the limit is one million, then from the perspective of the border guards it is better to have one million white Ukrainian citizens in safety. Disgusting, obviously, but doesn't seem motivated by any sort of "they should fight more bravely" sentiment. That is a minor quibble, obviously.

[Elfdart]

Come 2024 and it's Biden versus Eric Trump or whomever, we may see George W Bush take a break from his MSNBC show to give an address at the Democratic Convention, as the Democrats try to reach out to moderate Qanons. AOC gets ninety seconds in a bad timeslot. His Bushisms will be beloved, as he urged everyone to not get fooled again with Trump.

Everyone who disagrees is labelled a North Korean bot.

For a few years now, I've thought that shit-libs owe Ann Coulter an apology for attacking her so vehemently, only to turn around years later and rip off her old material. Now I think they need to pay her royalties, too.

[LadyTevar]

Come 2024 and it's Biden versus Eric Trump or whomever, we may see George W Bush take a break from his MSNBC show to give an address at the Democratic Convention, as the Democrats try to reach out to moderate Qanons. AOC gets ninety seconds in a bad timeslot. His Bushisms will be beloved, as he urged everyone to not get fooled again with Trump.

Everyone who disagrees is labelled a North Korean bot.

For a few years now, I've thought that shit-libs owe Ann Coulter an apology for attacking her so vehemently, only to turn around years later and rip off her old material. Now I think they need to pay her royalties, too.

Let's not go there, gentlemen. If you want to discuss that kind of idiocy, make another thread, don't spam this one with it. Keep this one to Ukraine's situation.

[LadyTevar]

So, there's been some interesting developments.

ExxonMobil and Shell selling Russian Assets
This might hurt them as much as it hurts Russia, but it might also save their money.

Disney, Sony, and Warner halt release of Films
Yes, well, no one's going to have money to go to movies, so why spend the capital?

Because Russians feeling the Pinch
When you can't get on the Metro or pay for groceries because GooglePay isn't working, and the Banks are limiting Rubles and USD withdrawals.

[LadyTevar]

From BBC's Live Updates

Russian occupation of Kherson 'under way': Mayor
We reported earlier that it appears Russian troops have captured the southern city of Kherson.

It’s unclear what the exact situation is in Kherson, but local reports say that the Russian military is on the streets.

The city’s mayor, Igor Kolykhayev, had told local radio that Russian forces had captured the city’s railway station and port on Tuesday night, according to BBC Russian.

“The fighting is going on now, and the occupation of our city is under way.”

He said many people had died including Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, and government officials were now trying to make sure people could leave or get to shelters.

This video from our BBC Russian service shows the shelling and entry of Russian troops into the city.

Kherson, which has a population of almost 300,000, is located between Mykolaiv and New Kakhovka.

Russia’s strongest military advances so far have been in the south, where its forces from Crimea are targeting several Ukrainian cities including Odesa and Mykolaiv.

Mykolaiv officials have in the past hour stated that the city is still in Ukrainian hands.

[Highlord Laan]

Well, lets see how poot-poot handles twenty years of guerilla warfare.

[Zaune]

Of all the ways I thought this might turn out when it kicked off, Russia losing was not one of them.

[Bedlam]

This is a pretty simplistic take, but I think there need to be more fuckin military alliances than just NATO. NATO is quite clearly just an extension of the American empire; I can understand Russia not wanting bordering Ukraine to be a part of it, since it would 100% mean a boosted American ability to be imperialist in the region. But what option did they have? We're seeing that small countries can fuck up big ones as long as their military is incompetent enough, alliances don't need America, Russia, or China to be effective anymore. This is thinking in video game terms, but honestly, a defense agreement between Ukraine, Poland, and someone else close by (Germany? Romania?) would thoroughly deter Russian imperialism while also being no threat to Russia the way NATO is.

Maybe, or too many mutual defense treaties may lead to even a small local disturbance dominoing into a world war as more and more countries are sucked into it.


As far Ukraine joining the EU, I hope it doesn't happen as a knee jerk 'help poor Ukraine' reaction, if they don't meet the economic, political and cultural requirements that could just be storing up more problems for the future.

[Broomstick]

What the fuck do these Ukrainians expect these foreigners to do? Bear weapons and fight for a country whose own countrymen are unwilling to fight for, as demonstrated by the many Ukrainians fleeing from the war zones?

Honestly, I'm not sure it's any more complicated than "we are going to save our women and children before anyone else" and they're not thinking about what those "funny looking people" should do. Is it really news that there are racists in that part of the world? That under extreme stress a lot of people are assholes?

Nor is it just the Ukrainians - Polish border guards are also turning back POCs, because Polish is not the most enlightened country and has its own share of dicks, too. Not sure how things are going in Romania, Hungry, Slovakia, and Moldova, but while I am saddened and even angry about how people are being sorted at the borders I can't say I'm surprised.

[Broomstick]

This is thinking in video game terms, but honestly, a defense agreement between Ukraine, Poland, and someone else close by (Germany? Romania?) would thoroughly deter Russian imperialism while also being no threat to Russia the way NATO is.

That might work for a lot of rulers/nations, but I think it's gotten to the point with Putin that anything less than complete submission is seen as defiance and provocation.

I got a copy of his rambling pre-invasion speech. It's pretty clear that his goal isn't just restoring the extent of the USSR, he wants the old Tsarist Empire back, which is even more extensive. He's looking at maximum irrendentism

[Broomstick]

As far Ukraine joining the EU, I hope it doesn't happen as a knee jerk 'help poor Ukraine' reaction, if they don't meet the economic, political and cultural requirements that could just be storing up more problems for the future.

I'm not up on EU membership requirements, but at the very least Ukraine is going to need some major rebuilding when the war is done. Don't know how that would affect things, or how willing others will be to help out with that.

[Gandalf]

With some parts officially "occupied" and Kyiv under siege, it will be interesting to see how the western media covers any insurgency activities.