Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, SCRawl, Thanas, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2179
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-03-05 07:51pm

One of two people said to be in a critical condition after they were exposed to an unknown substance is a Russian national convicted of spying for Britain, ITV News understands.
A man, believed to be Sergei Skripal, and a woman are being treated at hospital after police were called to The Maltings in Salisbury, Wiltshire, on Sunday shortly after 4pm.
He and a 33-year-old woman, who are believed to know each other, "were found unconscious on a bench", Wiltshire Police said.
Link. The fact that "unknown substance" is the best they can come up with means they haven't got a fucking clue what they're dealing with (yet). Speculation so far is that it was an assassination attempt, though it's too soon to say.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-05 08:12pm

That this is in Britain makes me wonder if he was one of Steel's sources for the Trump/Russia dossier, and if this is retaliation. Though I acknowledge that that is, at present, purely speculative.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6702
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Isolder74 » 2018-03-05 08:18pm

I wonder if an umbrella injected Minibead was involved this time too.
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!

User avatar
Zaune
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6137
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Zaune » 2018-03-06 03:40am

Well, at least it's not radioactive sushi this time.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog

User avatar
EnterpriseSovereign
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2179
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-03-06 05:16pm

The incident has been handed over to the counter-terrorism division, though they've made clear they're not calling it a terrorist attack yet. Of course the Russians are denying any wrongdoing. It's been pointed out that it's unusual that he's been targeted now since he's likely to have done all the damage he's going to, unless he's still in contact with intelligence services.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

"As you know science is not fact"- HuskerJay
"The Delta Fyler [sic] isn't even a shuttle craft" -HuskerJay69
"The Dominion War wasn't really all that bad"- Admiral Mercury

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10450
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-07 02:53pm

Unknown substances is now 'nerve agent'

and one of the police officers first on the scene has also come down with problems due to it.
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6346
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: Richmond, Virginia: The Capitol of Treason
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by White Haven » 2018-03-07 04:51pm

Because Sources Are Hard wrote:A nerve agent was used to try to murder a former Russian spy and his daughter, police have said.

Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found unconscious in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon and remain critically ill.

A police officer who was the first to attend the scene is now in a serious condition in hospital, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said.

Nerve agents are highly toxic chemicals that stop the nervous system working and shut down bodily functions.

They normally enter the body through the mouth or nose, but can also be absorbed through the eyes or skin.

Russian spy: What we know so far
The 'quintessentially English' home of a Russian spy
Sergei Skripal and the 14 deaths under scrutiny
What now for UK-Russia relations?
Mr Rowley, head of Counter Terrorism Policing, said government scientists had identified the agent used, but would not make that information public at this stage.

"This is being treated as a major incident involving attempted murder, by administration of a nerve agent," he said.

"Having established that a nerve agent is the cause of the symptoms... I can also confirm that we believe that the two people who became unwell were targeted specifically."

He said there was no evidence of a widespread health risk to the public.

Two other police officers who attended the scene were treated in hospital for minor symptoms, before they were given the all clear. It is understood their symptoms included itchy eyes and wheezing.

Analysis
By Richard Galpin, BBC News correspondent - formerly based in Moscow

The announcement by the police that Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia are the victims of an attack in which a nerve agent was used makes the parallel with the poisoning of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko in London in 2006 even stronger.

Like the radioactive polonium used to kill Litvinenko, a nerve agent is not normally something criminal gangs or terrorist groups can make.

Instead, it is usually manufactured by specialist laboratories under the control of governments - and that inevitably means suspicion will now be very much focused on Russia.

Not only does it have a track record of using poisons to assassinate its enemies, there is also a motive in the case of Sergei Skripal.

As a military intelligence officer in Russia, he betrayed his country by providing information to MI6, reportedly revealing the identities of Russian agents in Europe. And Russian President Vladimir Putin has in the past indicated that traitors deserve to die.

Although the question remains, why would Mr Skripal be attacked now when he has been living in Britain for eight years and came here originally as part of a spy swap?

Mr Skripal, 66, and his 33-year-old daughter were found slumped on a bench outside the Maltings shopping centre.

Police want to speak to anyone who was in the city centre on Sunday afternoon.

They are particularly keen to hear from people who ate at Zizzi or drank in The Bishop's Mill pub between 13:00 and 16:00 GMT.

Both of those locations remain closed to the public.

There is also a cordon in place outside Mr Skripal's Salisbury home. A yellow forensic tent has been erected and police have been seen carrying equipment into the building.

Mr Rowley said hundreds of detectives, forensic specialists, analysts and intelligence officers were working round the clock on the case.

The investigation in Salisbury may take several more days, he added.

Prof Malcolm Sperrin, fellow of the Institute of Physics and Engineering in Medicine, said: "Symptoms of exposure to nerve agents may include respiratory arrest, heart failure, twitching or spasms - anything where the nerve control is degraded.

"Nerve agents can cause death, but not necessarily at low-level exposure or with a minor dose."

Alastair Hay, emeritus professor of environmental toxicology at the University of Leeds, added: "These are very difficult and dangerous chemicals to make."

A public inquiry concluded the killing of the Russian dissident Alexander Litvinenko in 2006 was probably carried out with the approval of President Putin.

On Tuesday, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson told MPs the UK would respond "robustly" to any evidence of Russian "state responsibility" in the Skripal case.

Russia has insisted it has "no information" about what could have led to the incident, but is open to co-operating with British police if requested.

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said foreign media had used the incident as part of an anti-Russian campaign.

"It's a traditional campaign. The tradition is to make things up. We can only see it as a provocation," she said.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 05:09pm

Was reading about this on another site, and my attention was drawn to a point which I hadn't previously considered, but is rather obvious in hindsight:

A nerve agent is a chemical weapon, which could (and evidently did) harm anyone who came into contact with it. It could, in fact, be considered a WMD.

So, if Russia was behind this, then does that not technically mean that a nuclear-armed country just deployed a WMD on the soil of another nuclear-armed power?

Now, I don't imagine that Britain will actually start WWIII over this, even if its tied to the government of Russia. But I can't think of any form or retaliation short of actual war that would be an overreaction.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Zaune
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6137
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Zaune » 2018-03-07 05:57pm

If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.

And considering the only concrete proposal for a retaliatiory measure I've heard to date involves boycotting the World Cup, I don't think the current government is all that bothered.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 06:04pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.
Well, no, it wasn't like they were trying to disseminate it was widely as possible.

But even minor or indirect contact can be dangerous, as the police officer in the hospital shows. It could easily have harmed other bystanders. It is, at the very least, callous indifference towards the possibility of harming British civilians. And the use of chemical weapons by one nuclear power on the soil of another is something that needs to be decisively discouraged.
And considering the only concrete proposal for a retaliatiory measure I've heard to date involves boycotting the World Cup, I don't think the current government is all that bothered.
Well, I'd say that that's (yet another) damning indictment of the British government, and a failure to protect its citizens.

Frankly, if I was PM, I'd be inclined to recall my ambassadors from Russia, eject the Russian diplomats, and bar entry by any employee of the Russian government into the UK, as well as add additional financial sanctions.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10450
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-07 06:15pm

Generally I dont think Governments should be doing that kind of massively impactful action based on whst at the moment is purely circumstantual evidence.
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 06:21pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-07 06:15pm
Generally I dont think Governments should be doing that kind of massively impactful action based on whst at the moment is purely circumstantual evidence.
Well, I did previously say "if Russia was behind this". Sorry if that wasn't sufficiently clear.

That said, Russia is the obvious suspect, given the identity of the targets, the historical precedent, and the reported difficulty in acquiring/manufacturing nerve agents.

What action would you feel is appropriate if Russia's government is confirmed to be behind this?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Zaune
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6137
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Zaune » 2018-03-07 06:22pm

On the plus side, at least this approach means we won't have to spend several weeks waiting to find out how the England team are going to crash and burn embarrassingly this time.

But more seriously, I don't see how we can afford to threaten sanctions against Russia given how thoroughly we're burning our bridges with Europe and the US is all but demanding that we become an overseas territory.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 06:26pm

Zaune wrote:
2018-03-07 06:22pm
On the plus side, at least this approach means we won't have to spend several weeks waiting to find out how the England team are going to crash and burn embarrassingly this time.

But more seriously, I don't see how we can afford to threaten sanctions against Russia given how thoroughly we're burning our bridges with Europe and the US is all but demanding that we become an overseas territory.
The UK is between a rock and a hard place, I guess- which is largely the fault of the Conservatives for enabling the Brexit madness (note: Nigel Farrage, one of the main people behind Brexit, has ties with a number of individuals involved in the Russian collusion investigation, so it may very well be that alienating the UK from Europe and limiting its options vs. Russia was part of the purpose behind Brexit).

That said, in my non-expert opinion, no government can afford to allow the use of chemical weapons by a foreign power on its soil to slide unchallenged.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10450
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-07 06:36pm

They also cant let their population to starve and freeze to death if Russia cuts energy supplies to us. (Nb: I'm not sure how depedent we are on russian energy atm and how much we are on french and chinese nuclear companies)

But to answer your question if Russia were proven beyond all reasonable doubt to be behind shit should kick off. As in summon their Ambassador for an explanation, sanctions up the wazoo and demand they give up whoever ordered it for trial.

I just dont think it will ever be proved strongly enough for them to take any significant action.
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
FireNexus
Cookie
Posts: 1625
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:10am
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by FireNexus » 2018-03-07 08:23pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 06:04pm
Zaune wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.
Well, no, it wasn't like they were trying to disseminate it was widely as possible.

But even minor or indirect contact can be dangerous, as the police officer in the hospital shows. It could easily have harmed other bystanders. It is, at the very least, callous indifference towards the possibility of harming British civilians. And the use of chemical weapons by one nuclear power on the soil of another is something that needs to be decisively discouraged.
This isn’t the first time the Russians have used novel means of assassination inside of Britain. And referring to this as using “weapons of mass destruction” is about as intellectually honest as saying that killing that guy with polonium was “using atomic weapons”.

What would be interesting is if the nerve agent was the same that was received by that DC marine base last week. But I suspect the public wouldn’t learn about that until well after my death by natural causes, were that the case.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 08:27pm

FireNexus wrote:
2018-03-07 08:23pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 06:04pm
Zaune wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.
Well, no, it wasn't like they were trying to disseminate it was widely as possible.

But even minor or indirect contact can be dangerous, as the police officer in the hospital shows. It could easily have harmed other bystanders. It is, at the very least, callous indifference towards the possibility of harming British civilians. And the use of chemical weapons by one nuclear power on the soil of another is something that needs to be decisively discouraged.
This isn’t the first time the Russians have used novel means of assassination inside of Britain. And referring to this as using “weapons of mass destruction” is about as intellectually honest as saying that killing that guy with polonium was “using atomic weapons”.
Technically, chemical weapons are considered WMDs, yes? And it is only by luck that it did not harm more bystanders.

But yeah, its not as though Russia fired a rocket full of Sarin into the middle of town or something. Obviously.
What would be interesting is if the nerve agent was the same that was received by that DC marine base last week. But I suspect the public wouldn’t learn about that until well after my death by natural causes, were that the case.
I hadn't heard that story? Link?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
FireNexus
Cookie
Posts: 1625
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:10am
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by FireNexus » 2018-03-07 08:45pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 08:27pm
Technically, chemical weapons are considered WMDs, yes? And it is only by luck that it did not harm more bystanders.
Technically, who gives a shit? Technically a bullet is a bomb. Off target effects do not make something a WMD attack. WMD as a definition is as much about use as makeup. The fact that there is every appearance of an attempt to minimize off-target effects (though a partially-failed effort, depending how sick the cop got) makes it not a WMD attack by definition. It’s a poisoning using a nerve agent.

I hadn't heard that story? Link?
https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... -myer.html

Military has been hush-hush about it ever since. But based on how it was delivered and who got sick, it was a nerve agent. They won’t even say who the letter was addressed to, so it was probably some kind of targeted assassination attempt.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2771
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2018-03-08 12:03am

TRR, I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago over the assassination of Kim Jong Un's half-brother using a similar nerve agent. As Nexus said, this was simply an assassination attempt using one particular type of poison. It is worth noting that there are many other poisons that can also present danger to first responders if they become accidentally exposed.

User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 10043
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by mr friendly guy » 2018-03-08 07:06am

Some chemical weapons would be hard to make into WMDs, for example ricin, which was used in a famous assassination of a Bulgarian dissident by KGB agents, interesting enough also in the UK. Ricin denatures in air so it can only be useful if it's injected

The point is, just because it's a chemical weapons it doesn't follow it's a WMD, especially when it's in such a targeted manner to minimise other casualties.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to.
Australia, Canada, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.

User avatar
FireNexus
Cookie
Posts: 1625
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:10am
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by FireNexus » 2018-03-08 11:58am

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2018-03-08 12:03am
TRR, I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago over the assassination of Kim Jong Un's half-brother using a similar nerve agent. As Nexus said, this was simply an assassination attempt using one particular type of poison. It is worth noting that there are many other poisons that can also present danger to first responders if they become accidentally exposed.
It’s like those people who wishcast that hurricanes will hit where they live. TRR has always run off in his mind like he has had his pants on fire, but he’s (justifiably, I’d say) gotten a shitload worse since the world has proven that shit can go very crazy in an unexpected way on a massive scale.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-08 01:05pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2018-03-08 12:03am
TRR, I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago over the assassination of Kim Jong Un's half-brother using a similar nerve agent.
If you are suggesting that I am advocating war with Russia, you either have not read my posts or are being dishonest.

And yes, I think Kim Jong Un's attack should be treated with equal severity. Its just... there's not that much we can do to ostracize NK that we haven't already done, short of war. Which, as I said, is not what I am proposing.
As Nexus said, this was simply an assassination attempt using one particular type of poison. It is worth noting that there are many other poisons that can also present danger to first responders if they become accidentally exposed.
I think you're downplaying both the danger presented by nerve agents and the stigma that surrounds their use.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2771
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2018-03-08 05:50pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-08 01:05pm
If you are suggesting that I am advocating war with Russia, you either have not read my posts or are being dishonest.
TRR, are you literally out of your mind? Nothing I said was even remotely coming close to suggesting that. It amazes me that you would jump to such a bizarre, hyperbolic accusation. I'm not even one of the posters on here that has a history of arguing with or trolling you, so I don't see any reason why you would be so paranoid and venomous about my post right out of the gate. Seriously, dude ... chill out. Respond to my posts on their face, instead of conjuring up a complicated web of insinuations thrice removed from the content of my post and shrieking at me for lying about something. I half expected you to end that post talking about Pepe Silvia .
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-08 01:05pm
And yes, I think Kim Jong Un's attack should be treated with equal severity. Its just... there's not that much we can do to ostracize NK that we haven't already done, short of war. Which, as I said, is not what I am proposing.
You're skirting the point a little, here. At the time of the Kim Jong-nam assassination, you did not (so far as I can tell searching the forums, so please correct me if I'm wrong) equate it with a war crime or the use of a WMD. This attack, from what we know if it so far, was almost identical to that attack (though apparently pulled off less incompetently by the actual assassins, who were rather bumbling in the Kim Jong-nam case). Which would lead me to believe you think this attack is somehow categorically different from the other, or that you have changed your mind on such issues in the past year (in which case I would ask you to explain why). I'm asking you to explain what appear without further detail/qualification on your part to be a hypocrisy; note that this is in no way, shape, or form implying that you are advocating war with Russia, and I am still struggling to follow the string of leaps and assumptions you would have to make to extend my statements in that direction.

(Note, too, that I am pointing out that we have an existing precedent for crimes of this sort NOT being legally, politically, or popularly perceived as being WMD attacks. You could go back even further and see that the nerve agent attack on a Tokyo subway in in 1995 that killed 12 people also wasn't considered a WMD attack, despite being an act of terror on a grander scale than this).
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-08 01:05pm
I think you're downplaying both the danger presented by nerve agents and the stigma that surrounds their use.
No, I'm pointing out that the "contagiousness" of a poison isn't in and of itself a criterion for labeling something a WMD. You do realize chemical weapons aren't just putting a vial of poison in a room and waiting for the fumes to spread out and kill everyone? They require infrastructure and deployment systems on a rather large scale; hell, the Tokyo subway attack only killed 12 people in part because they lacked this infrastructure (you would expect it to kill far more, given the richness of the target for that sort of attack ... the Tokyo subway is massively crowded and especially in the mid 1990s wouldn't have had terribly sophisticated ventilation systems).

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14987
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-09 02:35pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2018-03-08 05:50pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-08 01:05pm
If you are suggesting that I am advocating war with Russia, you either have not read my posts or are being dishonest.
TRR, are you literally out of your mind? Nothing I said was even remotely coming close to suggesting that. It amazes me that you would jump to such a bizarre, hyperbolic accusation. I'm not even one of the posters on here that has a history of arguing with or trolling you, so I don't see any reason why you would be so paranoid and venomous about my post right out of the gate. Seriously, dude ... chill out. Respond to my posts on their face, instead of conjuring up a complicated web of insinuations thrice removed from the content of my post and shrieking at me for lying about something. I half expected you to end that post talking about Pepe Silvia .
I was responding to this:
I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago...
Emphasis mine.

Apologies if I misread you- I wasn't quite sure what your point was here, because I wasn't discussing war with Russia as a possibility in any serious way. In fact, I explicitly said that I did not think that this would (or should) lead to war (even though it should really go without saying), because I expected that if I raised this point someone would accuse me of fear-mongering about WWIII.

And if I have a bit of a hair-trigger on this point, its partly because certain people (not you, I'll acknowledge) have made a habit out of trying to paint me as "Russophobic" or "McCarthyist" or whatever, because of my antagonism towards the Russian government (by which standard, I would also hate Americans, despite being one, but I digress).

But again, apologies for any misunderstanding.
You're skirting the point a little, here. At the time of the Kim Jong-nam assassination, you did not (so far as I can tell searching the forums, so please correct me if I'm wrong) equate it with a war crime or the use of a WMD. This attack, from what we know if it so far, was almost identical to that attack (though apparently pulled off less incompetently by the actual assassins, who were rather bumbling in the Kim Jong-nam case). Which would lead me to believe you think this attack is somehow categorically different from the other, or that you have changed your mind on such issues in the past year (in which case I would ask you to explain why). I'm asking you to explain what appear without further detail/qualification on your part to be a hypocrisy; note that this is in no way, shape, or form implying that you are advocating war with Russia, and I am still struggling to follow the string of leaps and assumptions you would have to make to extend my statements in that direction.

(Note, too, that I am pointing out that we have an existing precedent for crimes of this sort NOT being legally, politically, or popularly perceived as being WMD attacks. You could go back even further and see that the nerve agent attack on a Tokyo subway in in 1995 that killed 12 people also wasn't considered a WMD attack, despite being an act of terror on a grander scale than this).
As I already acknowledged, it isn't much different from the NK attack, no.

If I treated it differently at the time, its probably just that the potential significance of a nerve agent being used simply didn't occur to me until it was pointed out to me (it didn't occur to me here either until I read comments discussing it as such). But again, I fully acknowledge that the NK attack should be treated with equal seriousness.
No, I'm pointing out that the "contagiousness" of a poison isn't in and of itself a criterion for labeling something a WMD. You do realize chemical weapons aren't just putting a vial of poison in a room and waiting for the fumes to spread out and kill everyone? They require infrastructure and deployment systems on a rather large scale; hell, the Tokyo subway attack only killed 12 people in part because they lacked this infrastructure (you would expect it to kill far more, given the richness of the target for that sort of attack ... the Tokyo subway is massively crowded and especially in the mid 1990s wouldn't have had terribly sophisticated ventilation systems).
All of that is quite true as far as I am aware. Though there is still a particular stigma attached to chemical weapons which I think it is in civilization's interests to maintain.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20248
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-03-09 03:34pm

What's going on here?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. It is the life of spies. Such is our world.

Getting all riled up here, TRR? Chill out.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali

Post Reply