It's Okay to be White

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

It's Okay to be White

Post by FaxModem1 »

Washington Post
‘It’s okay to be white’ signs and stickers appear on campuses and streets across the country

By Janell Ross
November 3, 2017 at 10:07 PM


Posters proclaiming “IT’S OKAY TO BE WHITE” have been appearing on college campuses and on city streets across the country this week, prompted by an anonymous chat-room comment that suggested the message would feed social unrest and sway white Americans to far-right ideologies.

Since Tuesday, the posters have been spotted in Rocky River, Ohio; at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn.; at Tulane University in New Orleans; at Montgomery Blair High School in Silver Spring, Md.; around college-campus rich Cambridge, Mass., including the Harvard Yard and at the University of Alberta in Canada. In most cases, schools and cities have pulled the posters down, but the message has continued to spread in images and hashtags across Twitter and other social media platforms, even prompting a related Know Your Meme entry detailing its Internet origins and cultural backstory.

A series of messages said people should print signs reading “IT’S OKAY TO BE WHITE,” post them on college campuses and elsewhere, and then stand back and watch the fun begin. News reports would draw attention to the posters, the writer behind the idea predicted. Then white Americans derisively referred to as “normies” in the white nationalist ecosphere will discover that American journalists and “lefties” hate white people. In the process, normies will stop regarding news outlets as credible. That would deal a damaging blow in the culture war, the post said, inevitably converting more “normies” to the white nationalist, alt-right side. It could be that easy to seed social disruption, the post implied.

The episode is indicative of the efforts white-nationalist groups have made to recruit in and around the nation’s college campuses and other mainstream settings with claims of growing white maltreatment and expanding anti-white discrimination. The white victim construct is one that experts say, not so long ago, only had traction in avowed white supremacists, segregationists and neo-Nazi circles. But today, it animates open and anonymous public discussions of race and shapes the nation’s politics.


Related: [The University of Michigan is considering allowing Richard Spencer to speak on campus]

In the period just after the 2016 election, investigators with the Southern Poverty Law Center documented a surge in posters and recruitment activity by white-nationalist organizations on 150 college and university campuses. White nationalist organizations regard colleges as spaces where millions of young Americans, without their intervention, will be inculcated with the ideas of valuing diversity, seeking and creating inclusion and equity, the investigators found. And, on campus, white-nationalist groups have made every effort to counter that with well-dressed, tech-savvy and articulate spokesmen who recast equality and cultural sensitivity as a damaging loss for white Americans.

In the months immediately after the November 2008 election, the country saw an increase in both hate crimes and hate group membership, said Nicholas Valentino, a political scientist and research professor at the University of Michigan’s Center for Political Studies. For those already worried about what they view as the unacceptable price of equity, an end to white control, the country’s decision to elect its first black president was a chilling moment. But these Americans’ perception that equity is effectively anti-white discrimination appears to have been adopted by a bigger portion of the American white population, Valentino said.

“Whites inside various supremacist groups and movements believe, and have for a long time, that they are part of a victimized racial group,” said Valentino. “Far right, white nationalist, neo-Nazis and their ilk have always had this sense of aggrievement, the zero-sum mentality that says as other groups gain rights or options and opportunities from which they have been excluded, whites necessarily lose and this can not be tolerated. But research, my research and several other initiatives, suggest that the white sense of victimization, and by that I mean the perception of victimization, has been increasing dramatically since Obama’s election. At this point, it’s not a majority of whites, but it has grown dramatically outside those extremist groups.”

The sense that white Americans have become the lone group in America unable to attend to group interests shows up in those 4chan chat threads and Twitter timelines, too. During the 2016 election, then-presidential candidate Donald Trump even retweeted a message from a like-minded account littered with inaccurate data on race and murder. On the campaign trail, Trump said with some regularity that life was safer and all-around better at a time in America when no one had to concern themselves with being “politically correct.”

The factual basis for claims that white Americans are collectively suffering is difficult to find. On average, they continue to enjoy better income, personal wealth reserves, health, health care, housing, schools than any other group. White Americans also make up 90 percent of the nation’s elected officials despite making up about 61 percent of the total population.

At Concordia College, one of the campuses where the “IT’S OKAY TO BE WHITE” placards and stickers were found this week, removed them. Concordia officials said in a statement they did so because the signs did not adhere to campus display policies, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reported. Concordia President William Craft said he wanted to invite the campus community to discuss the posters at a public forum the school will organize. He also pointed out that the posters were distinguished, among other things, for a lack of information, even the name of the group behind them.


On Wednesday, Craft posted a longer statement on the school’s Facebook page.

“There is and must be a place here for people of different ethnicities and skin colors, of different faith traditions or no faith traditions, of different nations, of different gender identities, of different political convictions,” he wrote. “In that sense, it is indeed OK to be white — and to be black, to be brown, to be Christian, to be Muslim, to be straight, to be gay, to be conservative, to be liberal, and so on. We are stronger for this diversity of identities.”
To sum up, White nationalists played a prank, people overreacted, stating that the message is racist. People reacted to the overreaction.

IMO, this sets a bad precedent for liberals, as it implies that being white is bad, thus alienating a large segment of the population.
Image
User avatar
Raw Shark
Stunt Driver / Babysitter
Posts: 7477
Joined: 2005-11-24 09:35am
Location: One Mile Up

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Raw Shark »

The idea that white non-supremacy = racism is, obviously, bollocks. I proudly identify as (mostly; actually 3/4) white, and stand shoulder to shoulder with drivers from all over the world as an equal. I may lack melanin, but I was born into an orphanage. I'm a hard-edged competitor, and so are they. Egalitarianism for the win.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4141
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Formless »

If the signs can be linked directly to internet trolls with a white nationalist agenda, then they aren't race neutral and they only serve to validate white privileged. By all means, colleges should take 'em down anywhere they see them. The people putting them up know what they are doing and it sounds like its an attempt to bring internet trolling into the real world. Its just like the "Blue Lives Matter" fallacy. Two messages with the same grammatical content can carry very different social messages, and anyone with half a brain and the right data can figure that out.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by K. A. Pital »

Merged by request.

Is it OK to be white? Pretty much as it's OK to be male. What's not OK is to be dicks, what the alt-right are the very definition of.

Truth be told, people should probably become more insensitive... to alt-right pranks. But as "postmodern society", people don't want that, they don't want seriousness. They want entertainment.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yeah, its okay to be white.

But the people who go out of their way to say that kind of thing are probably doing it as a way to shout down/attack social justice movements for women and minorities, and to imply that "white men are the REAL persecuted group".

Just like "All Lives Matter". Yeah, taking that statement at face value, there's nothing wrong with it- in fact its a sentiment I quite agree with. But when its used in response to "Black Lives Matter", its a tactic to try to change the conversation to "What about the white people", and deflect from the fact that Black people are facing specific challenges/threats that Black Lives Matter is trying to draw attention to.

Its particularly insidious and loathsome because it takes ideals of equality and justice and perverts them to advance a fascistic cause- and thus undermines the credibility of anyone who actually advocates equality.

In other words, the people saying "Its okay to be white" are basically using it as thinly-veiled code for "We're the REAL victims! White Power!"
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Flagg »

It’s racist. Saying so is not an overreaction. Treating those who place them on property belonging to the public or other private citizens as racist vandals is appropriate. Everyone knows it’s OK to be white, this was nothing but an attempt to spark violence.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by TheFeniX »

Flagg wrote: 2017-11-04 07:52pm It’s racist. Saying so is not an overreaction. Treating those who place them on property belonging to the public or other private citizens as racist vandals is appropriate. Everyone knows it’s OK to be white, this was nothing but an attempt to spark violence.
From my reading: started by racists to illicit an overreaction, as stated by FaxModem, and it's working. They aren't trying to convince you or me. They are trying to start the narrative (again) that "libtards" overreact and consider everything racist. So that the alt-right has another foothold to step in and moderates will continue (or start) to believe that both sides are just as bad or that liberalism has gone to far.

Whether or not this "success" will blow up in their face is unknown. I, personally, am of the mind to ignore stupid bullshit like this. If it's put in a place where you aren't supposed to post bullshit, throw them away, report the vandalism, and leave it at that. If it's in a place where it's ok to post bullshit, leave it.

Then again, shit's been getting so stupid lately, I can find myself at a loss to even begin to understand what would help push this movement back into the hole it came out of. I just don't see a point in giving them satisfaction when they want it.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Simon_Jester »

I say, just take the signs and spraypaint a big "MEH" on them. The correct reaction is simply "meh." This is a deliberate attempt to take a statement that is unobjectionable when taken literally, and create a weird subtext that lets them turn into some kind of 'lol we so edgy' slogan for their movement. Because any honest slogan that represents their worldview and is literally accurate would be rejected by 98% of the population.

They're trying to spread themselves by looking nice and sensible while going "But we only say unobjectionable things! Why you keep trying oppress us?"

To which the only reply is "So, you only have unobjectionable things to say? I declare your movement a 'meh' movement. Wake me when you have an opinion."
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Dragon Angel
Jedi Knight
Posts: 753
Joined: 2010-02-08 09:20am
Location: A Place Called...

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Dragon Angel »

TheFeniX wrote: 2017-11-04 11:15pmFrom my reading: started by racists to illicit an overreaction, as stated by FaxModem, and it's working. They aren't trying to convince you or me. They are trying to start the narrative (again) that "libtards" overreact and consider everything racist. So that the alt-right has another foothold to step in and moderates will continue (or start) to believe that both sides are just as bad or that liberalism has gone to far.

Whether or not this "success" will blow up in their face is unknown. I, personally, am of the mind to ignore stupid bullshit like this. If it's put in a place where you aren't supposed to post bullshit, throw them away, report the vandalism, and leave it at that. If it's in a place where it's ok to post bullshit, leave it.

Then again, shit's been getting so stupid lately, I can find myself at a loss to even begin to understand what would help push this movement back into the hole it came out of. I just don't see a point in giving them satisfaction when they want it.
Taken further, then if you don't protest because of some fear of optics, there is a sense that society will tacitly accept this kind of rhetoric. Affected groups will not only feel, but actually in practical terms become insecure as society just chooses to accept more and more dog whistles as "valid discussion".

I get extremely annoyed at certain people (hello Cenk and Ana) that claim protesting these assholes is a waste of time, don't bother, just let them march unchallenged let them spew their rhetoric anyway. Yeah, just ignore the bullies and they'll forget about you, that's a time-honored foolproof tactic.

Never create a situation where both protesting them gives them satisfaction, and letting them proceed unchallenged also gives them satisfaction. Bad things always result from that.
"I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers, consultin' with the rain.
And my head I'd be scratchin', while my thoughts were busy hatchin', if I only had a brain!
I would not be just a nothin', my head all full of stuffin', my heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry, life would be would be a ding-a-derry, if I only had a brain!"
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7456
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Zaune »

Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-11-05 03:34am I say, just take the signs and spraypaint a big "MEH" on them. The correct reaction is simply "meh." This is a deliberate attempt to take a statement that is unobjectionable when taken literally, and create a weird subtext that lets them turn into some kind of 'lol we so edgy' slogan for their movement. Because any honest slogan that represents their worldview and is literally accurate would be rejected by 98% of the population.

They're trying to spread themselves by looking nice and sensible while going "But we only say unobjectionable things! Why you keep trying oppress us?"

To which the only reply is "So, you only have unobjectionable things to say? I declare your movement a 'meh' movement. Wake me when you have an opinion."
I'm reminded of a rather famous photo of two counter-protestors turning up to a far-right march in Leicester or Birmingham or somewhere with a sign that read "Stop Being Silly".
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by FaxModem1 »

Since the thread merge deleted my closing statement and comments are along similar lines, I have to ask. Must one conflate the message with the messenger?

Additionally:
Is this worthy of a police investigation?
If yes, what statements are not worth a police investigation if made by certain groups or individuals?

If no, how long a leash do you give on groups and individuals that are against you and/or dangerous to society in your opinion?
Image
User avatar
Dragon Angel
Jedi Knight
Posts: 753
Joined: 2010-02-08 09:20am
Location: A Place Called...

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Dragon Angel »

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-11-05 09:13amSince the thread merge deleted my closing statement and comments are along similar lines, I have to ask. Must one conflate the message with the messenger?
As is always, context is crucial, especially here. In a vacuum, "it's okay to be white" would just appear to be "harmless". Same with #AllLivesMatter. But, those two were not born in an effort of good faith. They were born after people of color began to assert their rights once again, in the face of rampant police brutality and government indifference.

You did not see #AllLivesMatter until #BlackLivesMatter started to trend. #AllLivesMatter was born from a complete bad faith misinterpretation of #BlackLivesMatter to mean "ONLY black lives matter, to the exclusion of everyone else" and not "black lives matter as much as everyone else". Because of this, it's impossible to divorce the statement #AllLivesMatter from its context. The message becomes as grotesque to the people it was created against as "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." Back in the 1930s, there were masses who saw that sentence in just as much of a vacuum: "Secure the existence of our people? Why not? Of course we want a future for white children, who would want them to die out?"

"It's okay to be white", in today's political context and even before today, means much more than the sum of its words. Of course it's fine to be a white person, but who is saying that it isn't? If you can cherry pick certain people in a population of hundreds of millions that are saying it, do they actually have any significant reach?

One must also consider that today's Nazis literally believe in a thing called White Genocide, where apparently the increase of people who are not white will cause the eventual extinction of the white race and all white culture. Which, well, that is utterly preposterous of course, but as they are literally believing in that, "it's okay to be white" takes on an entirely new meaning.
"I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers, consultin' with the rain.
And my head I'd be scratchin', while my thoughts were busy hatchin', if I only had a brain!
I would not be just a nothin', my head all full of stuffin', my heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry, life would be would be a ding-a-derry, if I only had a brain!"
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Simon_Jester »

Talking to FaxModem:

This ties into the entire concept of "dogwhistles."

Imagine you have a view that is repulsive to 65% of the population, acceptable to 25%, and appealing to 10%. How do you talk about it? If the 10% speak openly, they will be screamed at by the 65%, and many of the 25% will turn against

This is why you rarely see religious fundamentalists in the US openly saying things like "gays should be forced to repent their homosexuality or be burned at the stake." They may BELIEVE shit like that, and when they let their metaphorical hair down they might say it to others who are members of their own political movement. Then again, they may not believe shit like that. But either way, they can't say shit like that.

Because the vast majority of the population will have an immediate 'immune system' response to that level of blatant racial bigotry, to that disregard for human rights and dignity. Even if, say, a third of the population would be content to live in a society where gays were in fact burned at the stake, most of that third will not openly support such a thing in public, not while the other two thirds of the population is still out there.

[Please note, I am using 'burned at the stake' as a deliberate example of a really terrible thing to illustrate the concept]

...

So how do members of the 10% minority of stake-burners communicate the idea "hey, have you thought about how great it would be if we burned gays at the stake instead of tolerating them and their evil vile repulsive habits like making you have mildly awkward conversations with your children and making you wonder if that one time you felt funny about another man means your marriage is going to fall apart and you're going to hell?" Because of course they want to spread their message, but how can they?

Well, they use a code-phrase, combined with context clues to make it clear what they're talking about. Like "family values." Family values are unobjectionable! Who can be against family values? Family is a good thing! Even most of the 65% of Americans who are strongly anti-stake-burning have families and love them!

[Except, the fundies say, the handful of elite arugula-driving Prius-eating librul homobortionists, but they are a tiny puny minority and not the REAL AMERICANS who have been tragically and inexplicably brainwashed into not burning gays at the stake]

So basically, the code phrase is there precisely for the purpose of acting like an 'innocuous' vehicle by which very much not innocuous ideas can get mutated into horrible ideas, through this sort of Orwellian Newspeak process.

...

Now this can cut both ways. ANY effort to make an appealing restatement of a minority-held political view, in an attempt to make it palatable to a larger audience, can be viewed as 'dogwhistle' tactics. "Marriage equality" looks a lot like a dogwhistle from the point of view of religious fundamentalists who see it as an attempt by the (notional) gay conspiracy to convince everyone to make gay marriage legal so they can corrupt everyone into homosexuality, for instance. And they sometimes do in fact bounce up and down saying "GUYS, I KNOW THIS PHRASE SOUNDS OKAY BUT IT'S ACTUALLY BEING USED TO MEAN SOMETHING HORRIBLE, PROTEST ITS USE!" the same way we are doing about "it's okay to be white."
FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-11-05 09:13am Since the thread merge deleted my closing statement and comments are along similar lines, I have to ask. Must one conflate the message with the messenger?
And that's why in dogwhistle cases, it really is kind of impossible and counterproductive to try and separate the message from the messenger. The entire point is to say something that means one thing coming from one messenger, but a different harmless thing coming from another messenger.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Flagg »

TheFeniX wrote: 2017-11-04 11:15pm
Flagg wrote: 2017-11-04 07:52pm It’s racist. Saying so is not an overreaction. Treating those who place them on property belonging to the public or other private citizens as racist vandals is appropriate. Everyone knows it’s OK to be white, this was nothing but an attempt to spark violence.
From my reading: started by racists to illicit an overreaction, as stated by FaxModem, and it's working. They aren't trying to convince you or me. They are trying to start the narrative (again) that "libtards" overreact and consider everything racist. So that the alt-right has another foothold to step in and moderates will continue (or start) to believe that both sides are just as bad or that liberalism has gone to far.

Whether or not this "success" will blow up in their face is unknown. I, personally, am of the mind to ignore stupid bullshit like this. If it's put in a place where you aren't supposed to post bullshit, throw them away, report the vandalism, and leave it at that. If it's in a place where it's ok to post bullshit, leave it.

Then again, shit's been getting so stupid lately, I can find myself at a loss to even begin to understand what would help push this movement back into the hole it came out of. I just don't see a point in giving them satisfaction when they want it.
An overreaction would be SWAT teams arresting the racist vandals as opposed to just issuing warrants and picking them up then charging them with vandalism under the hate crime statute. I don’t care if stupid, racist, and/or apathetic people who don’t care about the rights of oppressed groups to live as equals see that as an overreaction. And if the racist vandals that committed these hate crimes are getting what they wanted by being arrested and charged with vandalism as a hate crime, then they can be happy in prison.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by TheFeniX »

Dragon Angel wrote: 2017-11-05 07:42amTaken further, then if you don't protest because of some fear of optics, there is a sense that society will tacitly accept this kind of rhetoric. Affected groups will not only feel, but actually in practical terms become insecure as society just chooses to accept more and more dog whistles as "valid discussion".
What kind of rhetoric though? You force them to up the ante and reveal their real goal by doing so. MRAs didn't get exposed for what they were by people reacting to the idea of "men's rights are important." The veil was lifted when the ante was upped and they started spewing their sexist bullshit and committing actual crimes such as stalking and harassment.

But it's still not a crime or bullying to say shit like "Men's rights matter" or "Men matter."

To me, this isn't the same thing as protesting the Battle Flag as a matter of course. The symbol itself has a lot of history and most of it is terrible. "It's ok to be white" doesn't have that.
Flagg wrote: 2017-11-05 03:09pmAn overreaction would be SWAT teams arresting the racist vandals as opposed to just issuing warrants and picking them up then charging them with vandalism under the hate crime statute. I don’t care if stupid, racist, and/or apathetic people who don’t care about the rights of oppressed groups to live as equals see that as an overreaction. And if the racist vandals that committed these hate crimes are getting what they wanted by being arrested and charged with vandalism as a hate crime, then they can be happy in prison.
I'm not seeing the narrative play out like that. More like "saying it's ok to be white is now a hate crime: the failings of liberalism" dominating the airwaves. And I'm not comfortable dealing with a justice system that can define "crime" that broadly or apply prison sentences for the "vandalism" of taping paper to something a person doesn't own.
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4141
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Formless »

Its a moot point. We know the actual intent of the phrase, because it was posted to 4chan. They wanted to incite violence, and instead all that happened is the posters got taken down. Because they forgot that colleges and other private property owners have a right to do that. Spout white nationalist bullshit in a college classroom, and you will be asked to leave. Try the dogwhistle tactic, and anyone educated enough to work at a college will see right through it. All they have done is tried to take internet trolling into the real world... and instead just trolled the internet, as always. At the end of the day, the intended narrative that "this is a neutral statement" is sabotaged by the fact the idiots posted their agenda online where journalists and college officials can easily find it, and take appropriate (non-violent) action. Everyone knows which webshites these imbeciles frequent.

Also, attempts to incite violence are in fact illegal. The thing is, this was an attempt to incite violence by the other side, which just goes to show that white nationalists love projecting their own viciousness onto other people. :roll:
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
User avatar
Dragon Angel
Jedi Knight
Posts: 753
Joined: 2010-02-08 09:20am
Location: A Place Called...

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Dragon Angel »

TheFeniX wrote: 2017-11-05 04:34pmWhat kind of rhetoric though? You force them to up the ante and reveal their real goal by doing so. MRAs didn't get exposed for what they were by people reacting to the idea of "men's rights are important." The veil was lifted when the ante was upped and they started spewing their sexist bullshit and committing actual crimes such as stalking and harassment.
This is a ... confusing statement, considering many Nazis have committed actual crimes. :wtf:

Often with the police not caring, either!
TheFeniX wrote: 2017-11-05 04:34pmBut it's still not a crime or bullying to say shit like "Men's rights matter" or "Men matter."

To me, this isn't the same thing as protesting the Battle Flag as a matter of course. The symbol itself has a lot of history and most of it is terrible. "It's ok to be white" doesn't have that.
I recommend you read both Simon's and my reply to FaxModem. Dog whistling as a tactic has a long history that is really only within the last few years being revealed for what it is. Their objectives have been to cause as much chaos in real life as they could, and shift the Overton window, the latter being accomplished by trying to dog whistle disgusting ideas into the mainstream. It starts with "it's okay to be white", but then again the 14 words seemed innocent enough back in the 1930s.
"I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers, consultin' with the rain.
And my head I'd be scratchin', while my thoughts were busy hatchin', if I only had a brain!
I would not be just a nothin', my head all full of stuffin', my heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry, life would be would be a ding-a-derry, if I only had a brain!"
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Flagg »

Formless wrote: 2017-11-05 05:10pm Its a moot point. We know the actual intent of the phrase, because it was posted to 4chan. They wanted to incite violence, and instead all that happened is the posters got taken down. Because they forgot that colleges and other private property owners have a right to do that. Spout white nationalist bullshit in a college classroom, and you will be asked to leave. Try the dogwhistle tactic, and anyone educated enough to work at a college will see right through it. All they have done is tried to take internet trolling into the real world... and instead just trolled the internet, as always. At the end of the day, the intended narrative that "this is a neutral statement" is sabotaged by the fact the idiots posted their agenda online where journalists and college officials can easily find it, and take appropriate (non-violent) action. Everyone knows which webshites these imbeciles frequent.

Also, attempts to incite violence are in fact illegal. The thing is, this was an attempt to incite violence by the other side, which just goes to show that white nationalists love projecting their own viciousness onto other people. :roll:
Yeah, that’s the best part really.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Flagg »

Dragon Angel wrote: 2017-11-05 06:04pm
TheFeniX wrote: 2017-11-05 04:34pmWhat kind of rhetoric though? You force them to up the ante and reveal their real goal by doing so. MRAs didn't get exposed for what they were by people reacting to the idea of "men's rights are important." The veil was lifted when the ante was upped and they started spewing their sexist bullshit and committing actual crimes such as stalking and harassment.
This is a ... confusing statement, considering many Nazis have committed actual crimes. :wtf:

Often with the police not caring, either!
TheFeniX wrote: 2017-11-05 04:34pmBut it's still not a crime or bullying to say shit like "Men's rights matter" or "Men matter."

To me, this isn't the same thing as protesting the Battle Flag as a matter of course. The symbol itself has a lot of history and most of it is terrible. "It's ok to be white" doesn't have that.
I recommend you read both Simon's and my reply to FaxModem. Dog whistling as a tactic has a long history that is really only within the last few years being revealed for what it is. Their objectives have been to cause as much chaos in real life as they could, and shift the Overton window, the latter being accomplished by trying to dog whistle disgusting ideas into the mainstream. It starts with "it's okay to be white", but then again the 14 words seemed innocent enough back in the 1930s.
What was it King Jr said about the “White Moderate”?
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Dragon Angel
Jedi Knight
Posts: 753
Joined: 2010-02-08 09:20am
Location: A Place Called...

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Dragon Angel »

Flagg wrote: 2017-11-05 06:12pmWhat was it King Jr said about the “White Moderate”?
Day by day, man, day by day. I've been so understanding his frustration in the last two years. :cry:
"I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers, consultin' with the rain.
And my head I'd be scratchin', while my thoughts were busy hatchin', if I only had a brain!
I would not be just a nothin', my head all full of stuffin', my heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry, life would be would be a ding-a-derry, if I only had a brain!"
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Simon_Jester »

I will say this, though.

I have observed a pipeline that feeds into the toxic side of the men's rights community that starts like this:

Suggestible Sad-Sack Male: "You know, I'm starting to feel really bummed and defensive about my gender, because I see a lot of articles saying bad things about men, saying that lots of men are okay with terrible things like rape and domestic abuse, I don't actually think that way, and I feel like I'm being misrepresented. But when I say so I get dismissed because there are whole Internet memes like "Not All Men" and "mansplaining" that are really, really effective at telling me I don't have a role in whatever conversation we're having at the moment. Likewise, if I feel lonely or unhappy about the way my love life is going, there are memes like "Nice Guy (TM)" to tell me I'm an entitled creep. This stinks!"

SSSM: "Oh hey, there's this website where I can talk about my problems and they don't make fun of me or tell me I'm a creep... Ohh, and they have dating advice! And they have explanations for... woooow..."

Recruitment ensues.

...

Basically, if you create a situation where people ARE, in point of fact, feeling like being a member of the dominant group is getting them verbally abused, even if only on the Internet by random strangers...

And if the only place those people can go to feel good about themselves is the radical community of bigots devoted to promoting the interests of the dominant group...

Sooner or later, those bigots are going to be gaining a LOOOOT of recruits.

You can radicalize people if you get zealous enough about shutting down their ability to express relatively mild pro-themselves sentiments.

This is something that we should watch out for going forward. We might be able to do a lot to block or neutralize this weird rise of pro-white-nationalist sentiment...

If only we can find a way to clearly and openly express the meme "being a white person is fine and nobody is trying to take that away from you, just because of some things that some whites do that are dickish and need to stop right now."
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7954
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by ray245 »

Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-11-05 08:38pm I will say this, though.

I have observed a pipeline that feeds into the toxic side of the men's rights community that starts like this:

Suggestible Sad-Sack Male: "You know, I'm starting to feel really bummed and defensive about my gender, because I see a lot of articles saying bad things about men, saying that lots of men are okay with terrible things like rape and domestic abuse, I don't actually think that way, and I feel like I'm being misrepresented. But when I say so I get dismissed because there are whole Internet memes like "Not All Men" and "mansplaining" that are really, really effective at telling me I don't have a role in whatever conversation we're having at the moment. Likewise, if I feel lonely or unhappy about the way my love life is going, there are memes like "Nice Guy (TM)" to tell me I'm an entitled creep. This stinks!"

SSSM: "Oh hey, there's this website where I can talk about my problems and they don't make fun of me or tell me I'm a creep... Ohh, and they have dating advice! And they have explanations for... woooow..."

Recruitment ensues.

...

Basically, if you create a situation where people ARE, in point of fact, feeling like being a member of the dominant group is getting them verbally abused, even if only on the Internet by random strangers...

And if the only place those people can go to feel good about themselves is the radical community of bigots devoted to promoting the interests of the dominant group...

Sooner or later, those bigots are going to be gaining a LOOOOT of recruits.

You can radicalize people if you get zealous enough about shutting down their ability to express relatively mild pro-themselves sentiments.

This is something that we should watch out for going forward. We might be able to do a lot to block or neutralize this weird rise of pro-white-nationalist sentiment...

If only we can find a way to clearly and openly express the meme "being a white person is fine and nobody is trying to take that away from you, just because of some things that some whites do that are dickish and need to stop right now."
It doesn't help that the Internet helps to create certain filtered "news" for people. Go to a more conservative forum and see the news article being posted there. The Internet can tell isolated, one-off incidents and tell them as if it is part of a larger pattern.

With every social movement, they will be some fringe lunatics out there. The internet helps to shed more spotlight on these fringe elements and portray them as if they are representative of the entire group. Post enough stories about these fringe elements, and you will get more gullible people buying into such narrative.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
User avatar
Dragon Angel
Jedi Knight
Posts: 753
Joined: 2010-02-08 09:20am
Location: A Place Called...

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Dragon Angel »

Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-11-05 08:38pmBasically, if you create a situation where people ARE, in point of fact, feeling like being a member of the dominant group is getting them verbally abused, even if only on the Internet by random strangers...

And if the only place those people can go to feel good about themselves is the radical community of bigots devoted to promoting the interests of the dominant group...

Sooner or later, those bigots are going to be gaining a LOOOOT of recruits.

You can radicalize people if you get zealous enough about shutting down their ability to express relatively mild pro-themselves sentiments.

This is something that we should watch out for going forward. We might be able to do a lot to block or neutralize this weird rise of pro-white-nationalist sentiment...

If only we can find a way to clearly and openly express the meme "being a white person is fine and nobody is trying to take that away from you, just because of some things that some whites do that are dickish and need to stop right now."
Looking back, there were several things that should have probably been done better to get the word out. There is certainly a problem even still in some circles where nuance tends to ... slip, like water on a hydrophobic surface, such as in making extremely broad statements. "it's not just toxic masculinity ALL MASCULINITY IS BAD" self-styled activists are dropping in number by the year thankfully.

With that said though, there are two things that can't really be helped no matter what happens. The first, using Anita Sarkeesian as an example, is people just taking whatever they can in whatever contexts they wish, and twisting them so grotesquely as to be eldritch horrors of their former selves. Then these people--usually with huge platforms--spread their misinformation to more people with huge platforms, who then spread their misinformation, and ... it becomes a depressing game of mass telephone. Many people would just listen to these second- and third-hand interpretations, and never bother to check the sources.

Now, that isn't to say there aren't issues with some of Sarkeesian's statements. Her attitude toward sex work has been widely criticized, for example. But these people who intentionally destroy her words for public consumption poison the dialogue so badly that even feminists have difficulty discussing her among each other, to say nothing about discussing her with total strangers. So, people naturally get utterly frustrated and throw their hands up in response.

The second is people making extremely strong statements, trying to illustrate a point. In an ideal world, I'd LOVE there to be civil, casual dialogue among the majority of people, but humans rarely operate on logic alone. These statements are meant to evoke emotion, and they can be ... inartful, oftentimes. But at the same time, trying to make a statement without strong emotion can just result in the statement slipping by people's attentions without much if any notice.

Heck, people make MLK seem like his activism was the model of clean protest now, but in his day his words were strong to the white people listening to him. He had much hate mail addressing his so-called "disrespectful" attitude. Standards have changed much, and the marginalized try to find stronger and stronger ways to let themselves be known. Sometimes finding great success, sometimes just running into new roadblocks.

I don't even disagree with you, but ..... I just don't know what else can be done under these circumstances. Be nice, and people will either ignore you or take advantage of you. Be "mean", and people will find ways to discredit you. Try to find a middleground, and you can end up running into an extreme very easily on either end.

I just have no idea.
"I could while away the hours, conferrin' with the flowers, consultin' with the rain.
And my head I'd be scratchin', while my thoughts were busy hatchin', if I only had a brain!
I would not be just a nothin', my head all full of stuffin', my heart all full of pain.
I would dance and be merry, life would be would be a ding-a-derry, if I only had a brain!"
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Simon_Jester »

The one suggestion I have is to take time out to, for lack of a better term, be nice, at moments when there isn't a specific reason not to be. I'm not going into specific examples right now because time presses, but basically, no one is activisting ALL THE TIME, or at least very few people are.

Being committed to truth, openmindedness, and inclusiveness whenever it isn't necessary to say nasty things about all men or all whites or everyone over forty or whatever... I suspect that goes a long way. And a habit of such things may make it necessary to say nasty things surprisingly little of the time.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: It's Okay to be White

Post by Civil War Man »

A lot of this ties back to what I said in the post on the relatively recent New Atheism thread in SLAM (the one that was locked). It comes down to different people using different definitions of the word white. There is white in the sense that someone is a person with light skin with predominantly European ancestry, and there's white in the sense that someone makes their light skin and European ancestry the central pillar that forms the core of their identity. It's okay to be white in the former sense, but it's not okay to be white in the latter sense.

This is especially true when you consider that there really isn't a white culture that exists except as a racist construct. At least in the US, non-racist white culture, when ethnic roots are even acknowledged, is more often than not sorted into some sub-category based on some kind of regional or national affiliation. It's not viewed as white, but as Southern, Midwestern, American, German, Irish, Italian, etc. There was no campaign to erase those tribal and ethnic roots, like what happened to black Americans, so those roots were able to be maintained instead of mostly defaulting to a generic umbrella race-based culture.
Locked