Charlottesville: State of emergency over US far-right rally

[Gandalf]

Officials in Charlottesville in the US state of Virginia have declared a state of emergency ahead of a large march by white nationalists.

Thousands of people are expected to join the "Unite the Right" rally against plans to remove a statue of a pro-slavery US Civil War general.

Violent clashes erupted between far-right groups and counter-protesters who have also gathered in the city.

Two people have been injured, police say.

The state of emergency allows local authorities to request additional resources if needed, the police department said.

Police have fired tear gas and pepper spray against demonstrators and said that arrests had been made after a declaration of unlawful assembly at Emancipation Park.

The far-right protesters are angry about the planned removal of a statue of Gen Robert E Lee from Charlottesville. Lee commanded the Confederate forces in the US Civil War of 1861-65.

The BBC's Joel Gunter in Charlottesville says police have not yet interrupted clashes between the rival demonstrators, adding that it had been "extremely violent" so far.

Charlottesville has become a focal point for white nationalists after the city council voted to remove a statue of General Lee.

On Friday, the group waved torches and chanted "White lives matter" as they marched through the University of Virginia in the city. Charlottesville mayor Mike Signer condemned the march as a "parade of hatred".

The situation is still unfolding, but this is pretty fuck up by any measure. The footage is horrid.

[Highlord Laan]

I don't see how anyone with a brain expected it to go any other way. There was a horde of "people" that could have been mass-firebomed with nothing of value lost marching through a college campus and mouth-shitting over monuments to the vile confederacy being removed by their betters.

If there's any silver lining it's that a flat out bloodbath didn't ensue. If the pathetic examples of humanity protesting for white power continuing breathing can be seen as a silver lining.

[Flagg]

Not "White Nationals". Neo-Nazi's.

Now melt the statue down and use the material to build a statue to John Brown.

[SolarpunkFan]

It's come to the point where being a bigoted piece of shit who thinks "Hitler had the right idea" can comfortably be out and about doing Nazi Salutes.

Fuck it. Just fuck it. I give up.

[Joun_Lord]

It's come to the point where being a bigoted piece of shit who thinks "Hitler had the right idea" can comfortably be out and about doing Nazi Salutes

Not to excuse it, but do you honestly think thats anything new? Are you not aware that Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists have been out and goose stepping and waving their hand in the air like they just don't care to say "Howdy Hitler" has been going on for decades? Where you not aware of the very public American Nazi Party in the late 50s or the more recent National Socialist Movement that held rallies on the lawn of the US Capitol as late as 2008? Shitbags sucking Hitlers diseased prick going around in public proud of being the worst of humanity is definitely nothing new.

Anyway on topic, on the one hand I'm all about free speech, even speech I find utterly disgusting, but on the other I find anything Confederate even more disgusting. I think we should remember our history so we dare not repeat it but I also think we shouldn't be having fucking monuments to traitorous pieces of shit who led countless thousands to their deaths defending human goddamn slavery. The only place Robert E Lee needs a statue is at the bottom of a portapotty and in the Museum of Really Bad People right between Hitler and Dr Kellogg.

[Dragon Angel]

I expect all the people who said the Nazis would just continue to "peacefully" demonstrate to eat their own shit now. Any time now. Any time now.....

[Broomstick]

I'd rather the Nazis be out and public than hiding in the broom closet because the public ones are easier to keep an eye on.

Like or not, in the US you can think any fucked up thing you want to think, believe any fucked up thing you want to believe, and even say just about any fucked up thing you want to say.... as long as you don't do anything fucked up/illegal.

I fully advocate throwing the book at any neo-Nazi or White Supremacist who acts on those fucked up beliefs.

Oh, and the 1960's called, they want their riots back. Seriously, folks, this really does remind me of those years. It wasn't all peace, love, and rock n roll, there was some seriously, seriously ugly shit going on back then.

[Raw Shark]

There is a part of me that wishes that can just take up my implement and end then practitioners. Let me take me on up. I would cheerfiuly take on those who can't I'll kill them. Go ahead and stop me. If you stop me and I stop in a small box. If you

[Dragon Angel]

I'd rather the Nazis be out and public than hiding in the broom closet because the public ones are easier to keep an eye on.

On the other hand, if they are out and public, it has an effect of intimidating their targets. That's what these Klan-like marches are supposed to evoke: absolute fear. If they are tacitly accepted as parts of society, then their presence ends up silencing the marginalized people they wish to destroy, as the paradox of tolerance illustrates.

We'll have Nazis and other white pieces of shit for as long as we live, but that does not mean we should shrug and give up and let them run unchallenged in the open. (Cenk, Ana, I love you both, but quit it with the bad takes about "don't bother protesting Nazis") People who are marginalized will run out of breathing room. As long as they are stuck in their broom closets, they will have far less social and political influence.

[Broomstick]

I expect all the people who said the Nazis would just continue to "peacefully" demonstrate to eat their own shit now. Any time now. Any time now.....

There have been times when groups like the Nazis, the KKK, and the like have held public rallies and did so peaceably... but usually while surrounded by law enforcement, many of whom were itching for a reason to arrest them. They are able to do this, but frequently do not so you always, always, have to expect trouble to arrive wherever they do.

[Zaune]

Damn it, United States of America, stop making me not look like a dangerous lunatic for wanting heavily armed and violent left-wing paramilitary militias to be a thing. I'm an ex-mental patient who made explicit threats of violence to get my mother and stepfather out of my life instead of a restraining order*, my deranged rambling is not supposed to sound reasonable and proportionate!

(Never let it be said that my many, many flaws include a lack of self-awareness.)

* In my defence, a) I had no money for a lawyer and almost certainly didn't qualify for legal aid and b) I had good reasons for wanting to see the back of them.

[Broomstick]

I'd rather the Nazis be out and public than hiding in the broom closet because the public ones are easier to keep an eye on.

On the other hand, if they are out and public, it has an effect of intimidating their targets. That's what these Klan-like marches are supposed to evoke: absolute fear. If they are tacitly accepted as parts of society, then their presence ends up silencing the marginalized people they wish to destroy, as the paradox of tolerance illustrates.

Except when you have situations where the counter-protesters show up in greater numbers than the bigots. Except when they bigots put a toe over the line and get arrested and thrown in jail.

After all - if you allow Nazis and the KKK to hold a public gathering then you can't very well bar their opposition, can you?

Of course, I do recommend riot police on standby.

We'll have Nazis and other white pieces of shit for as long as we live, but that does not mean we should shrug and give up and let them run unchallenged in the open.

And if we oppress them it will just feed their prejudices.

Allowing them their right to free speech and assembly is NOT the same as them being unchallenged - ANY such gathering of them WILL have counter-protests and launch a spate of anti-them editorials in local media. They have a right to speak their minds... and you have a right to speak yours.

[Patroklos]

Oh, and the 1960's called, they want their riots back. Seriously, folks, this really does remind me of those years. It wasn't all peace, love, and rock n roll, there was some seriously, seriously ugly shit going on back then.

Finally some sanity. Even the riots/demonstrations of BLM, all the campus shenanigans put together, Occupy or the recent post election nonsense doesn't touch the 60s. Or even the 90s for that matter. This thing here is barely a blip on the contemporary radar size and damage wise, they are just a particularly detestable sort so they will get outsized headlines. Which is exactly their plan.

EDIT: Well one dead. Not sure who did it but it looked like some sort of modernist muscle car. Its sure as hell no accident either, the video is shocking.

[Flagg]

Hate speech laws work just fine in Western and Central Europe, no reason they won't work here. All hypothetical of course, since gods forbid we make an amendment banning hate speech.

[Dragon Angel]

Except when you have situations where the counter-protesters show up in greater numbers than the bigots. Except when they bigots put a toe over the line and get arrested and thrown in jail.

After all - if you allow Nazis and the KKK to hold a public gathering then you can't very well bar their opposition, can you?

Of course, I do recommend riot police on standby.

I wouldn't count on the cops honestly. There have been reports where cops were present and were seeing fights happen, but refused to intervene. The cops then only moved in once there were more counter protestors than Nazis.

Cops have also been historically more willing to give right wing groups like this leeway, and crack down on left wing groups like nothing else. As long as this bias exists, people will not trust them to keep the order.

And if we oppress them it will just feed their prejudices.

Allowing them their right to free speech and assembly is NOT the same as them being unchallenged - ANY such gathering of them WILL have counter-protests and launch a spate of anti-them editorials in local media. They have a right to speak their minds... and you have a right to speak yours.

There have been a number of people, such as the anchors of TYT, who have been claiming even the act of protesting these Nazis is a complete waste of time. Or even "embarrassing". When they kneecap their own side in such a manner, then effectively they are telling people to let them go unchallenged.

Also at this point, I'm done with worrying about "feeding their prejudices". Their prejudices have gone so far into the area of crazytown that trying to avoid feeding them would be like trying to tiptoe your way through a den of hungry lions. We've reached a point where the Right blames the Left for literally any governmental failure no matter what evidence is against that and ignores their own side's issues. If they are no longer operating on reality, then trying to be polite and reasonable to them will be utterly pointless.

Countries like Germany also do fine without allowing Nazis to speak. Not saying we should adopt German policies full-stop, but let's not forget about them.

Even the riots/demonstrations of BLM,

lol, citation needed. other than right wing propaganda please.

[Patroklos]

I am pretty sure the official lefty line was that it was not JUST demonstrators in Ferguson and Baltimore DA, unless you want to blame the demonstrators for all those car and structure fires...

[Flagg]

And if we oppress them it will just feed their prejudices.

Simply electing a black President fed their prejudices. Cultural acceptance of LGBTQ people and gay marriage being the law of the land fed their prejudices. They already think the poor white male Christian ( ) is oppressed.

Maybe it's time to show these fuckers what oppression looks like.

[Zaune]

Oh, and the 1960's called, they want their riots back. Seriously, folks, this really does remind me of those years. It wasn't all peace, love, and rock n roll, there was some seriously, seriously ugly shit going on back then.

That said, even in the Sixties you could probably rely on the Executive branch and most of Congress to publically affirm that going so far as goosestepping, straight-armed salutes etc was a bit gauche. Even the Unamerican Activities Committee only disapproved of anti-fascism if you did it before it was cool.

Meanwhile in 2017, I'm still hunting for a firsthand source but someone one of my activist buddies follows on Twitter claims that Trump was asked if he wanted the support of the "white nationalist" protestors and he ended the interview without answering the question. I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies that he didn't have the balls to say yes.

[Patroklos]

That said, even in the Sixties you could probably rely on the Executive branch and most of Congress to publically affirm that going so far as goosestepping, straight-armed salutes etc was a bit gauche. Even the Unamerican Activities Committee only disapproved of anti-fascism if you did it before it was cool.

Dude, at that time major federal office holders were open members of the clan. You paid way to much for those rose colored glasses.

Lefties and there resent spat of "the good ole days" shtick is so hilarious given this is what conservatives are supposed to be about. You can't have your cake and eat it to guys.

[Flagg]

I am pretty sure the official lefty line was that it was not JUST demonstrators in Ferguson and Baltimore DA, unless you want to blame the demonstrators for all those car and structure fires...

Just like the marches led by Martin Luther King Jr in the '60's there were those who chose to vent their frustration in harmful ways and others that simply used the situation to commit criminal acts such as looting.

But unless you consider cars and buildings more important than human life I think it was a reasonably peaceful demonstration since cops (and fat powertripping "neighborhood watch members") get away with killing blacks and other minorities under questionable circumstances almost every other week. So since there were no dead cops, I think things went fine.

[Patroklos]

Nothing you just said refutes my original statement, or butresses DAs stupid objection to it.

My point is as much as we like to pretend we are living in the IT years of historical events, we suffer from a huge case of participation bias. Even a casual understanding of past unrest in this country should be able to keep some perspective.

There are few hundred protestors all told at this thing. Only a fraction of that are actual KKK or other identifiable hate group. These guys could muster int he thousands many times a year just a couple decades ago. This is not a resurgence we are seeing, its a last gasp. And we will always, ALWAYS, have enough of these people to do something like this ever other year or so no matter what.

[Dragon Angel]

My point is as much as we like to pretend we are living in the IT years of historical events, we suffer from a huge case of participation bias. Even a casual understanding of past unrest in this country should be able to keep some perspective.

There are few hundred protestors all told at this thing. Only a fraction of that are actual KKK or other identifiable hate group. These guys could muster int he thousands many times a year just a couple decades ago. This is not a resurgence we are seeing, its a last gasp. And we will always, ALWAYS, have enough of these people to do something like this ever other year or so no matter what.

"It was worse long ago" is hardly a good defense when black people are still being shot and killed by cops and other marginalized people like trans individuals still have a hard time accessing the fucking bathroom without certain states getting in the way. I'm sorry you can't grasp this but institutional oppression is still institutional oppression, no matter how much apologia you spout for it.

[Flagg]

Nothing you just said refutes my original statement, or butresses DAs stupid objection to it.

My point is as much as we like to pretend we are living in the IT years of historical events, we suffer from a huge case of participation bias. Even a casual understanding of past unrest in this country should be able to keep some perspective.

There are few hundred protestors all told at this thing. Only a fraction of that are actual KKK or other identifiable hate group. These guys could muster int he thousands many times a year just a couple decades ago. This is not a resurgence we are seeing, its a last gasp. And we will always, ALWAYS, have enough of these people to do something like this ever other year or so no matter what.

You claimed the BLM demonstrations were riots, and dismissed the fact that even in the 60's there were bad actors who took advantage of the demonstration to, well, act badly, as "the lefty line".

Now you're just moving the goalposts like the "righties" do constantly.

[Flagg]

Even the riots/demonstrations of BLM,

lol, citation needed. other than right wing propaganda please.

Good luck with that, since the reply was literally right wing propaganda.

[Patroklos]

I'm sorry you can't grasp this but institutional oppression is still institutional oppression, no matter how much apologia you spout for it.

You know, this puffing up might make you feel good but is completely ineffective as a take down when none of what you accuse me of has been said.

Is this rioting or whatever you want to call it greater than what happened in the 60s? No. Exactly, so you can shut the fuck up now.