Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by Thanas »

Guardian
Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

British ministers are being overly optimistic about the chances of a decent trade deal if they reject the single market


Britain’s European partners are uniting around a very tough position on the forthcoming Brexit negotiations. At the same time, Theresa May is starting to rule out options that could leave Britain closely integrated with the continental economies. Both her government and the 27 are being driven by politics rather than economic self-interest. This will harm trade and investment and therefore leave Britain poorer.

May has announced that she will invoke the article 50 exit procedure before the end of March, while also rejecting the jurisdiction of the European court of justice. Together with her promise to restrict the right of EU citizens to work in Britain, this precludes staying in the single market with which Britain does almost half its trade.

This means the UK will have to negotiate access to the single market, sector by sector, through a free trade agreement (FTA). British manufacturers may not suffer too much, since FTAs (such as the recent EU-Canada deal) eliminate tariffs on goods, although the UK’s likely decision to also leave the EU customs union will create hassle on borders for importers and exporters. The problem with such an agreement is that it would do little to open up markets in services such as finance, construction or aviation. That would require the removal of regulatory barriers – which is what the European single market is all about.

The British economy is about 80% services. The glummest faces that I saw at the Conservative conference in Birmingham were those of the bankers. They noted that ministers failed to speak out on the importance of their sector. They are becoming resigned to losing “passporting” – the rule that allows a UK-regulated firm to do business across the EU – and are preparing to shift operations out of London. Some bankers reckon that this exodus will deprive the Treasury of about £10bn in taxes a year.

British officials hope to win a much better deal than the Canadians; after all, Britain has a bigger economy and the 27 would benefit from it thriving. They expect a “Canada-plus” FTA, covering some services as well as goods. That may be possible. The problem, however, is that the 27 other governments are forging a very hard line on Brexit.

Article 50 was written to put a country leaving the EU at a disadvantage. Once a government activates the article, it has just two years to negotiate the exit settlement. The two years may be extended by unanimity, but most of the 27 want Britain out before the June 2019 European elections and the conclusion of the next round of EU budget negotiations at about the same time. A separate negotiation will be needed for the future economic relationship, in the form of an FTA, but that could take five years or longer to complete and would then need ratification in each of the national parliaments (and there are, confusingly, 45 in the EU). So the UK will need an interim deal to provide cover in the years between leaving the EU and the entry into force of the FTA.

But the clock will be ticking during the negotiation of the divorce settlement and the interim deal. And if the talks break down without agreement, the UK will be on its own with only World Trade Organisation rules – which would mean 10% tariffs on UK exports of cars and more than 50% on some meats, and provide no access for services.

Because the cards are stacked against the UK, the prime minister has asked for “pre-negotiations” before invoking article 50: she wants to know what her partners might give her, including in an interim deal. But the 27 are refusing informal talks lest clever British diplomacy undermines their unity.

On recent visits to Berlin, Paris and Brussels, I was struck by the uncompromising line on the “indivisibility” of the four freedoms – of labour, capital, goods and services. Key policy-makers say the UK cannot be allowed the benefits of membership, such as participation in the single market, without accepting the responsibilities, such as budget payments and free movement (Switzerland and Norway accept both).

British negotiators need to understand why the 27 are so obdurate on this point. The Germans and others worry that if the British win a special status, other countries – inside or outside the EU – would ask for equivalent deals. And that would potentially destabilise the union.

But the biggest driver of the tough line on the four freedoms is fear of populism. In Paris, mainstream politicians do not want Marine Le Pen to be able to say: “Look at the Brits, they are doing fine outside the EU, let’s follow them there.” Similar views colour thinking in The Hague, Rome and other capitals: the British must be seen to pay a price for leaving.

The British need to worry about the European parliament, with which they have long had antagonistic relations, and which believes in the mantra of the four freedoms. It must approve both the article 50 agreement and the FTA. If by some feat of brilliant diplomacy, Britain were to win a deal combining single-market membership with limits on free movement, MEPs would throw it out.

Many Brexiters claim that the toughness of the 27 is merely an opening stance, and that, when talks commence, economic self-interest will push them to soften. But that may be wishful thinking. One top German official told me that a bad deal for Britain would divert investments to Germany and thus benefit his country.

And although German industrialists would like to see Britain closely integrated with the European economies, Theresa May should not assume that they drive German policy. They have spent the past two years lobbying against EU sanctions on Russia, without any impact. In any case, an FTA between the EU and the UK, removing tariffs on goods, would suit German industry. It would not be so good for the service-dependent UK economy.

Many Conservatives hope that in the end Angela Merkel will look after the UK. It is true that she is likely to remain chancellor after next September’s general election. And she certainly regrets Brexit and wishes Britain well. But her main responsibility, as the EU’s unofficial leader, is to keep the 27 together, and that means working closely with the French to do so. For Merkel, the interests of the EU come first. She believes that maintaining the institutional integrity of the EU, and the link between the four freedoms, is in Europe’s and therefore Germany’s interest.

One reason that British politicians are over-optimistic about the kind of deal they can achieve is their misreading of continental debates on migration. They tend to assume that because the British dislike EU migration, other Europeans must think similarly. Therefore, they argue, the 27 will soon come round to Britain’s viewpoint and want to limit free movement.

However, in most EU countries the big issue is inflows of people from outside, not inside the EU. In Germany, for example, mainstream politicians do not see intra-EU migration as a big problem. So the 27 are not going to allow the British to combine single-market membership with controls on EU migration.

Because article 50 puts the British government in a weak position, it cannot hope for a half-decent deal without a lot of goodwill from EU partners. If British ministers thump the table and issue threats, they will lose goodwill. The anti-immigrant tone of the Conservative party conference will have done nothing to enhance the UK’s reputation.
Followed up with this:
EU leaders line up to insist UK will pay a high price for Brexit stance

PM’s suggestion that Britain will prioritise immigration control over single market draws united and sharp response

Britain and the EU appear more bitterly divided over Brexit than at any time since the referendum, with European leaders ramping up their rhetoric after Theresa May signalled she would seek a clean break with the bloc.

The prime minister’s Conservative conference speech, in which she indicated Britain would prioritise immigration control and restore the primacy of UK law to become an “independent, sovereign nation” without full access to the single market, drew a sharp response from continental capitals.

In Paris, François Hollande said Britain must suffer the consequences of its decision. “The UK has decided to do a Brexit. I believe even a hard Brexit,” he said. “Well, then we must go all the way through the UK’s willingness to leave the EU. We have to have this firmness.”

If not, “we would jeopardise the fundamental principles of the EU”, the French president said on Thursday night. “Other countries would want to leave the EU to get the supposed advantages without the obligations … There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price.”

Hollande’s message was underlined on Friday by the president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, who said the 27 remaining member states must not give an inch in exit negotiations. “You can’t have one foot in and one foot out,” he said. “We must be unyielding on this point.”

Britain risked “trampling everything that has been built” over six decades of European integration, he said.

In Berlin, Angela Merkel rammed home the same point. “If we don’t insist that full access to the single market is tied to complete acceptance of the four basic freedoms, then a process will spread across Europe whereby everyone does and is allowed what they want.”

Merkel called on German industry leaders to back the government’s line in Brexit talks, even if it hit their profits. “We have to make sure our interests are coherent here so that we won’t be put under pressure constantly via European industry associations to eventually allow full access to the internal market even if all freedoms aren’t respected,” she said.

The British government has yet to confirm what kind of future relationship it will seek with the EU, but the conditions set down in May’s speech – in particular migration controls on EU citizens and the insistence that Britain will no longer be under the jurisdiction of the European court of justice – effectively rule out membership of the single market.

That will be hard to square with the prime minister’s determination for British firms to have the maximum opportunity to operate within the single market.

In an interview with the Guardian, Joseph Muscat, the prime minister of Malta, which will hold the EU’s rotating presidency when Britain triggers article 50 early next year, said the four freedoms – the movement of goods, capital, services and people – could not be decoupled. “That cannot be negotiated … These principles are the basis for everything the EU does,” he said.

The French finance minister, Michel Sapin, said on Friday that eurozone governments would not accept the City of London remaining the main euro clearing centre once Britain left the EU. “There will be activities taking place in London that will only be able to take place on the territory of the European Union,” he said.

The leaders’ statements reflect an increasing feeling in European capitals that the hard line the prime minister and others adopted during the Conservative conference – including the home secretary, Amber Rudd’s plans to prevent migrants “taking jobs British people could do” – may reveal a far deeper hostility to the EU than they had imagined.
So what everybody sane predicted to happen will happen if this goes on - Europe will put the screws on Britain, try to wreck the city and in general make an example out of Britain. British response to this has so far been to trump up the rhetoric and ban academics from doing their job. Always a good sign.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by Zaune »

I am legitimately expecting Boris Johnson to make an off-the-cuff remark about the fact we have nuclear weapons and most of Europe doesn't sooner or later.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by Juubi Karakuchi »

Thanas wrote:
So what everybody sane predicted to happen will happen if this goes on - Europe will put the screws on Britain, try to wreck the city and in general make an example out of Britain. British response to this has so far been to trump up the rhetoric and ban academics from doing their job. Always a good sign.
I'm really not sure what to make of May's rhetoric at this point. Yes she's thumping the tub pretty hard, but that's what party conferences are all about; so to take it literally might be premature. She may be secretly trying to wriggle out of Brexit, or she may have undergone a Damascene conversion and embraced it.

Or she's limiting herself to what she thinks will keep her in 10 Downing Street for as long as possible.

For myself, I'm inclined to think that the government doesn't want Brexit and is trying to wriggle out of it. They have to wriggle because May has already blown opportunities to simply overturn the Referendum (possibly for fear of an early general election), and she is at least pretending to be behind Brexit. That said, I can't be entirely sure. There comes a point where you have to accept that a government is going to do what it says it's going to do; but when?

May's real problem is that her party is divided into pro and anti-EU factions, both of whom have the power to make her life impossible or even to end her premiership. The pro-EU faction could do this with the support of the pro-EU majority in Parliament, the Brexiteers could do it with the support of the Tory Party members. Sooner or later she's going to have to chose a side, and she may already have done so. Simon Jenkins, in a recent Guardian article, argued that May is trying to use the conference to intimidate the pro-EU faction into silence; and that it might not work.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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If May keeps blowing opportunities to avoid Brexit, why would we continue to assume she's trying to avoid it? Maybe we're projecting, and maybe she actually thinks this is a good idea.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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Zaune wrote:I am legitimately expecting Boris Johnson to make an off-the-cuff remark about the fact we have nuclear weapons and most of Europe doesn't sooner or later.
Presumably meeting the reply that so does France and they don't have to ask America if they're allowed to set them off...
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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Simon_Jester wrote:If May keeps blowing opportunities to avoid Brexit, why would we continue to assume she's trying to avoid it? Maybe we're projecting, and maybe she actually thinks this is a good idea.
You may be right. But her previous opportunities actually weren't all that good. The obvious one was to overturn it as soon as she took office, most likey on a point of order; something to the effect that the Referendum was badly handled and the result inconclusive. But this would still look like the government arbitrarily ignoring the result, despite having promised to honour it, on the basis of rules that were not applied at the time. Also, there was the non-trivial prospect of it forcing a general election.

Her problem - assuming she is trying to avoid it - is that she now needs to make it look like it wasn't her fault. This isn't so much about convincing Brexiteers as about isolating them and denying them a reasonable pretext to cause trouble. As I stated in the Article 50 thread recently, the best available pretext as things stand would be the legal challenges currently underway. No matter what the Brexiteers want, she cannot break the law for them. As bilateralrope put it in that thread, she needs to be able to stand in front of the country and say that she honestly gave it her best shot.

Once again, you may be right. This could all be just wishful thinking, and she has indeed had a Damascene conversion; or at least believes that this is the least worst shot for the party and herself. She may have decided, as Corbyn probably will with Labour, that it's best to keep the heartland even at the cost of losing the political Centre.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by K. A. Pital »

It's not Europe that "wants" a hard Brexit to hurt. This is shifting the blame. Britain wants a hard Brexit. Everything else is the consequences of this choice. Denying the free movement of people = flying out of the free trade area and trading under WTO rules (before a new agreement is made - which isn't going to be easy). Simple as that.

Britain has been pushing for a hard Brexit while European leaders have been reconciliatory for many months. But if Britain keeps insisting on setting up border controls with EU states again, well... it is not the fault of the EU - for all the problems it has - but Britain's, and Britain's alone.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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Yeah. I think the issue is that Britain views "hard/soft" in terms of "is this transition going to be hard or soft for us; how much will it inconvenience and disrupt our domestic economy?" Whereas across the Channel, the question is "is Britain going to continue to follow the basic norms of human rights, open borders, and so forth that permit us to continue dealing with them as part of the European community of shared interests?"

The British seem to want the answer to the first question to be "soft- not very much disruption," which is understandable, but a lot of Englishmen don't want to accept that in exchange they'd have to answer the second question with "yes, yes we will."
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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This is my totally uninformed pig dog American centric and probably fucktarded view of the situation but it seems like both sides are being really childish about the situation.

The Brits I don't think were childish for leaving the EU. I think the EU is a good thing but clearly the UK didn't. Even have some concerns I agree with like immigration and border control that led to them getting the fuck out. Going at it alone might in the long run be more beneficial to them but maybe not, time will tell. Either way it was their decision and they have to live with it, assuming it even happens considering the talk of avoiding Brexit by ignoring the will off the people because some people don't like the results which could possibly have worse consequences.

But the thought they get exit the Union while still having all the perks, be able to limit immigration while still having free trade, seems really........hopeful on their part. Leaving an organization does not obligate them to continue to have a positive relationship with them especially when you do not reciprocate. The Brits seem to want to have their cake or crumpets or jammy dodgers or whatever they eat and eat it too.

On the other side while the EU is under no obligation to cut them any slack them putting the screws to Britain, arguably even punishing them for wanting to pull out like some stupid teenager on prom night who forgot to stock up on condoms. The EU in my understanding is supposed to be fully voluntary, members joined and can leave at will. Seems to set a bad precedence to act like a vindictive ex anytime someone wants to part ways. Probably doesn't inspire confidence from some members when the EU is willing to possibly hurt themselves and their former appendage economically just to try to punish them for leaving.

I understand not being able to part ways with a handshake and no hard feelings. Thats impossible. For some the UK leaving seems like them abandoning a Union that they believe is what is best for Europe for economic reasons, for human rights reasons, even to prevent anything else like WWI and its sequel. They might even worry about the UK leaving being the beginning of the end for the EU in yet another apocalyptic prediction. On the other side people might feel like the EU was actively fucking them, not listening to the needs of members, letting immigrants terk ur jerbs, and acting like cunts towards those that want to leave.

With such feelings on both sides remaining as BFFs with charm bracelets and sleepovers where they talk about their crushes ain't gonna happen. But they could still act like adults and try to come to a positive solution that doesn't fuck each other peoples over.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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The only ones who will be getting fucked are the British, specifically the bankers, farmers and workers. The impact on the rest of Europe is probably negligible.

When you insult somebody for over two years (or over three decades) and then hand him a noose that he can use against you with only a little muscle strain, then don't be surprised if you suddenly feel your throat tightening.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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Well, the UK has precious few allies left in the Eu precisely because our representatives have acted like spoiled children for the last five years. Perhaps that should be five hundred years, the German nickname of island apes is not new, and there were fears of vulnerability to invasion when the Channel Tunnel was suggested. The greatest hour for the UK was 1942 when they stood alone against a conquered Europe, and that's just how they like it. Once the yanks and ruskies joined in it wasn't as fun anymore... think about that kind of mindset and nostalgia.

So the EU as a whole has little sympathy. Individual countries inside the EU have quite a lot to potentially gain. The UK economy is incredibly heavily focused on services, financial, legal, engineering consulting and education. Services are more fungible and easier to relocate than manufacturing.
It would not take a great deal of extra friction in terms of paperwork, visas, tax checks ext for a company to simply move office from London to Paris or Frankfurt. And that's a fat increase in local taxes, office hire and yuppie spending flowing into that city's economy. Why wouldn't you?
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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madd0ct0r wrote:Well, the UK has precious few allies left in the Eu precisely because our representatives have acted like spoiled children for the last five years. Perhaps that should be five hundred years, the German nickname of island apes is not new, and there were fears of vulnerability to invasion when the Channel Tunnel was suggested. The greatest hour for the UK was 1942 when they stood alone against a conquered Europe, and that's just how they like it. Once the yanks and ruskies joined in it wasn't as fun anymore... think about that kind of mindset and nostalgia.

So the EU as a whole has little sympathy. Individual countries inside the EU have quite a lot to potentially gain. The UK economy is incredibly heavily focused on services, financial, legal, engineering consulting and education. Services are more fungible and easier to relocate than manufacturing.
It would not take a great deal of extra friction in terms of paperwork, visas, tax checks ext for a company to simply move office from London to Paris or Frankfurt. And that's a fat increase in local taxes, office hire and yuppie spending flowing into that city's economy. Why wouldn't you?
I project that brexit is going to be a huge boom for Ireland, with them being the only English speaking country (as a native language) left in the EU, and relative close proximity to UK.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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You would be wrong, most of their trade is with England and paying tariff on it will hurt them a lot. They have been arguing for Britain staying in for a long time now.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by Vendetta »

That depends on where London's financial sector decamps to. Dublin is one of the options. Taking 10% of the economy of Britain and adding it to Ireland would give them a major boost to tax revenue, even if they let them get away with the kind of murder we do.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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Thanas wrote:The only ones who will be getting fucked are the British, specifically the bankers, farmers and workers. The impact on the rest of Europe is probably negligible.

When you insult somebody for over two years (or over three decades) and then hand him a noose that he can use against you with only a little muscle strain, then don't be surprised if you suddenly feel your throat tightening.
I hope you're right Thanas, because the EU going full Fuck You on Britain may hasten it's demise. The Far-Right is already using the brexit reaction as a great propaganda tool for how evoool the EU is. Tightening the thumb screws will just give Le-Penn and her ilk more fuel for demanding a Frexit, followed by Dexit, Nexit and all the other -exits that are threatened.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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fordlltwm wrote:I hope you're right Thanas, because the EU going full Fuck You on Britain may hasten it's demise. The Far-Right is already using the brexit reaction as a great propaganda tool for how evoool the EU is. Tightening the thumb screws will just give Le-Penn and her ilk more fuel for demanding a Frexit, followed by Dexit, Nexit and all the other -exits that are threatened.
Please get back to reality.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by Simon_Jester »

Joun_Lord wrote:But the thought they get exit the Union while still having all the perks, be able to limit immigration while still having free trade, seems really........hopeful on their part. Leaving an organization does not obligate them to continue to have a positive relationship with them especially when you do not reciprocate. The Brits seem to want to have their cake or crumpets or jammy dodgers or whatever they eat and eat it too.

On the other side while the EU is under no obligation to cut them any slack them putting the screws to Britain, arguably even punishing them for wanting to pull out like some stupid teenager on prom night who forgot to stock up on condoms. The EU in my understanding is supposed to be fully voluntary, members joined and can leave at will. Seems to set a bad precedence to act like a vindictive ex anytime someone wants to part ways. Probably doesn't inspire confidence from some members when the EU is willing to possibly hurt themselves and their former appendage economically just to try to punish them for leaving.
Well, all that's really happening here is that the EU is saying "look, if you don't want to be party to the treaties that tie the EU together, you're just another country to us."

They can't have Britain be totally free to inject itself into the economy of the Continent, if Britain is at the same time raising walls against continental economic activity. British people cannot be free to travel Europe, if continental Europeans aren't free to travel Britain.

The EU functions on the basis of a mutually agreed upon system of laws and responsibilities. If Britain finds those responsibilities and laws burdensome, they can't expect to keep getting the sweet while not getting any of the bitter. It's not even about punishment, it's simply that nations which refuse to keep up their side of a bargain cannot expect others to sacrifice in order to keep the bargain on the other side.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Thanas wrote:You would be wrong, most of their trade is with England and paying tariff on it will hurt them a lot. They have been arguing for Britain staying in for a long time now.
And Nicola Sturgeon's been repeatedly reminding everyone that Scotland voted to remain. What's pissed me off about the whole thing is the uninformed masses voting to leave is the equivalent of throwing the toys out of the pram. Only when they later realise that no-one's going to pick up said toys and return them to they realise they've well and truly fucked themselves over. Maybe they're more like lemmings, and they're dragging the rest of us with them.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

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Thanas wrote:You would be wrong, most of their trade is with England and paying tariff on it will hurt them a lot. They have been arguing for Britain staying in for a long time now.
I project that this will be offset by transition of European headquarters from many MNCs from UK to Ireland. Trade with UK will remain high, but trade to EU nations will increase due to this.
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Patroklos
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by Patroklos »

Have any major MNCs actually announced a move?
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ArmorPierce
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by ArmorPierce »

Patroklos wrote:Have any major MNCs actually announced a move?
I haven't heard anything as of right now, but I haven't looked that up. I think that they are exercising a wait-and-see approach for now until decisions regarding brexit is finalized.
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K. A. Pital
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by K. A. Pital »

Patroklos wrote:Have any major MNCs actually announced a move?
No. They will likely keep everything as secret as possible not to start losing the now-working staff, and only announce when it becomes clear that UK firms will lose EU "passports".

However, some have already announced job cuts in London.
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madd0ct0r
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by madd0ct0r »

ArmorPierce wrote:
Patroklos wrote:Have any major MNCs actually announced a move?
I haven't heard anything as of right now, but I haven't looked that up. I think that they are exercising a wait-and-see approach for now until decisions regarding brexit is finalized.

Office construction and outfitting in osuth east UK is significantly down. I believe it's up in Frankfurt and Paris. At elast, the wife's been working in finace and keeps gettign sent to Frnakfurt the last 6 months..
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by Starglider »

This is a desired outcome for many of the 'exit' voters, particularly in northern England: they want to see London take a fall.
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Re: Why Europe wants a hard Brexit to hurt

Post by madd0ct0r »

A rebalanced economy that is socially useful instead of a global parasite would be good, and I don't think a housing price crash would be an unfair thing either.
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