Norway moves toward banning all gas-powered automobiles by 2025

[Borgholio]

http://fortune.com/2016/06/04/norway-ba ... cars-2025/

And Elon Musk couldn’t be happier.

Norway’s Dagens Næringsliv newspaper reports that four of the country’s major parties have reached agreement on a proposal to ban the sale of new gasoline and diesel-powered cars starting in 2025. The proposal is not yet law, but one interested party celebrated a little early.

Were it to become law, the policy would obviously be positive for Musk’s Tesla TSLA 0.77% , which currently produces the most advanced electric cars in the world. But the value could be more symbolic than financial—Norway has a population of only about 5 million, and nearly 20% of the nation’s cars are already fully electric (not hybrids).

As wild as it may sound to American ears, Norway is not the only government considering a ban of internal combustion vehicles. Others include India and the Netherlands.

Norway’s energy and economic profile makes the push particularly intriguing, though. Norway produces more than 90% of its local energy from renewable hydropower, allowing it to power electric cars cleanly. But it is simultaneously Europe’s largest petroleum producer, with fossil fuels accounting for 45% of exports and 20% of GDP. Were Norway to transition to a fully electric auto fleet, it would become, at least through the lens of the Paris climate accords, the geopolitical equivalent of a drug dealer that refuses to touch their own product.

Aside from the fact that this isn’t yet law, some of the parties seem to be backpedaling from any supposed agreement. Representatives of conservative parties have described the original story as based on a misunderstanding.

So there seems to be confusion on how far along these talks are, but it's still a very neat idea. It makes sense that the smaller countries would be the first to switch over, since nations with larger borders such as the US, Canada, or Mexico would have issues with battery vehicles simply not having the range needed at the current time.

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder what individual Norwegians think about this one. Also I wonder how well those batteries perform in very cold weather.

Countries like India are going to run into a massive problem with this, too, as I understand it:

Unless I am much mistaken, our current ability to manufacture electric cars is limited largely by our ability to make lithium batteries. Global lithium production is fairly limited, in turn... and it seems doubtful that we will be able to make enough electric-car batteries to support billions of electric cars in the near future.

[mr friendly guy]

The other way is possibly hydrogen fuel cells. I understand Japanese car companies are doing that for private cars, whereas China has (along with some of their electric vehicles) have chosen to target government vehicles (ie for public transport). Recently the Chinese put into place a hydrogen powered tram.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... s-not-cars

[K. A. Pital]

The EU is big and car range is an issue for smaller countries as well. Eh.

[Darth Tanner]

and nearly 20% of the nation’s cars are already fully electric

20% of new car sales, not total cars.

I can see this policy working very well for the urban centres, not so much for the rurl population... if anything Norway is the worst area to target for such people as cold weather and low population density is the worst area of perofrmance for electric cars.

I understand the heavy taxation of conventional cars and significant subsidies for electric ones makes them around cost comparative for the end consumer however.

I don't see hydrogen fuel cells taking off... not without some much cheaper and more convenient means of creating the hydrogen.

[mr friendly guy]

I don't see hydrogen fuel cells taking off... not without some much cheaper and more convenient means of creating the hydrogen.

Nuclear power. Ok just to make sure, have some form of tax or emissions trading scheme on power sources that produce carbon dioxide to make nuclear more competitive.

That being said I have no idea and am not willing to put bets on whether hydrogen or electric vehicles, although I have a feeling the next few years we will see a mixture of the two. Maybe hydrogen for some public vehicles like trams and electric for personal cars, given from what I know electric cars in the West and China already have a head start over any hydrogen fuel cell rivals.

[Purple]

All I can think of reading this is that it's going to gut the used car market. And whilst I don't know how things work in Norway where I am from that would be a terrible, terrible thing indeed.

[Darth Tanner]

Nuclear power.

That makes everything better but Norway is not really lacking a low carbon energy source... the bigger problem with hydrogen is even with a reliable source of clean energy its still comically expensive and inefficient process requring expensive equipment.

If you could create a device that can trickle electrolyse hydrogen from a 1-2KW source you could start fitting such devices to domestic properties... you could even have them sell they hydrogen to passing motorists. With current methods the hardware is too expensive for deployment to garage fourcourts let alone domestic... if I had a hydorgen car I would have to drive a good 120 miles currently to the nearest fueling location.

Long term I could see battery vehicles taking over the domestic, local delivery and taxi sectors whilst hydrogen fuels longer range or higher power delivery needs. Not sure if hydrogen would make sense in air travel.

[Darth Tanner]

All I can think of reading this is that it's going to gut the used car market. And whilst I don't know how things work in Norway where I am from that would be a terrible, terrible thing indeed.

Or massively help it as the legislation is only looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel cars, the value of keeping the existing ones on the road would massively increase to those who need that range/endurance benefit. Presuming of course the legislation also bans the import of fossil fuel new cars... not sure how being a EU member with free travel would work there as there is little they could do to stop someone bringing a Swedish or German car in?

[His Divine Shadow]

The only way that'd work is if they'd give poor people a free car. Even then, imagine being poor and used to having a car you can work on yourself and keep going, to something you have to take to an expensive brand shop for every slightest thing. Holy dependency issues batman! I'd rather have a biodiesel.

[Adam Reynolds]

If India bans combustion based automobiles it would actually lead to a net CO2 increase. They are currently one of the few countries still expanding coal production. Even China has somewhat stabilized or even decreased their output slightly in 2014/2015. India is still ticking upwards, with a plan to outright double production by 2020 relative to 2005.

In their case, the desire to do this is a result of wanting energy independence.

[Zaune]

The only way that'd work is if they'd give poor people a free car. Even then, imagine being poor and used to having a car you can work on yourself and keep going, to something you have to take to an expensive brand shop for every slightest thing. Holy dependency issues batman! I'd rather have a biodiesel.

I have no idea how good bus and light rail services are in Norway, but it is possible to be only mildly inconvenienced by not owning a car.

[His Divine Shadow]

If you live in an urban center perhaps, but I was never talking about or giving those people a 2nd thought.

[Purple]

The more I think about this the more it sounds like one of those policies that I really hate. The ones that boil down to "Fuck you! We are going to force you to change your life style whether you want it or not so that it fits our ideological bend."

[Flagg]

Fuck Norway's immigration laws.
Love Norway's everything else!

[Flagg]

The more I think about this the more it sounds like one of those policies that I really hate. The ones that boil down to "Fuck you! We are going to force you to change your life style whether you want it or not so that it fits our ideological bend."

Yeah, it's almost like they know better than you and are making you change something for the benefit for everyone, including you! But you, being an obstinant cunt, don't wanna.

[Purple]

Yeah, it's almost like they know better than you and are making you change something for the benefit for everyone, including you! But you, being an obstinant cunt, don't wanna.

That sounds like something a dictatorship would do. And beside, given the response and backpedaling described in the OP I imagine most Norwegians don't wanna either. Honestly I feel that when it comes to issues which are such a big deal as this there needs to be a plebiscite of some sort to handle them and not just a vote in what ever government assembly the country has.

[Flagg]

Yeah, it's almost like they know better than you and are making you change something for the benefit for everyone, including you! But you, being an obstinant cunt, don't wanna.

That sounds like something a dictatorship would do. And beside, given the response and backpedaling described in the OP I imagine most Norwegians don't wanna either. Honestly I feel that when it comes to issues which are such a big deal as this there needs to be a plebiscite of some sort to handle them and not just a vote in what ever government assembly the country has.

Waaa, I can't use carbon filament light bulbs! The horror!

Waaa, I can't use leaded gasoline! The horror!

Waaa, I can't sell cigarettes to 12 year olds! The horror!

[Purple]

Get a sane argument or fuck off, will you? I am in no mood to hold a discussion with someone acting like a brain dead 14 year old. And whilst I can excuse your behavior due to your medical condition I am not obliged to enable it further.

[aerius]

Running a quick check of the numbers says it's not mathematically impossible, Norway only goes through 22,000 barrels of gasoline a day which is a drop in the bucket compared to most other industrialized countries (Canada goes through about 750,000 a day). Doing a conversion of gasoline energy equivalence to electricity and accounting for typical efficiencies in gasoline & electrical power systems and I get somewhere between a 5-10% addition in electrical generation capacity to get it done. So this one's actually quite possible. Load balancing the grid could be a bitch though if everyone charges their cars at the same time.

[Zaune]

The more I think about this the more it sounds like one of those policies that I really hate. The ones that boil down to "Fuck you! We are going to force you to change your life style whether you want it or not so that it fits our ideological bend."

In this case, they're forcing you to change your lifestyle whether you want it or not because it will improve the quality of life for more people than it inconveniences. This is something that all humans must at some point learn to cope with.

[Flagg]

Get a sane argument or fuck off, will you? I am in no mood to hold a discussion with someone acting like a brain dead 14 year old. And whilst I can excuse your behavior due to your medical condition I am not obliged to enable it further.

The dumb troll failed to grasp how past instances of the US government slightly inconveniencing its citizens for their own (and the environments) benefit relates to this situation and tries to use my rapidly worsening illnesses against me as if I was wrong when I was clearly correct and the dumb troll either could not, or chose not to, comprehend my argument. Silly dumb troll! Not cookie for you!

[madd0ct0r]

Running a quick check of the numbers says it's not mathematically impossible, Norway only goes through 22,000 barrels of gasoline a day which is a drop in the bucket compared to most other industrialized countries (Canada goes through about 750,000 a day). Doing a conversion of gasoline energy equivalence to electricity and accounting for typical efficiencies in gasoline & electrical power systems and I get somewhere between a 5-10% addition in electrical generation capacity to get it done. So this one's actually quite possible. Load balancing the grid could be a bitch though if everyone charges their cars at the same time.

As long as they charge overnight its not such sn issue. Next step is smart grids, where they pause charging during denand spikes (lunch?) and rssume after. Next step beyond that is using the car batteries as capacitors that charge overall but also smooth spiky inputs. This has been trialled in Japan i think.

[His Divine Shadow]

If they want to implement this they should offer the new car free to anyone who makes less than a certain amount per year, and 20 years of free maintenace service to make up for the fact that you can't work on new cars yourself.

[Starglider]

I don't see the logic of banning hybrids, even from an environmental point of view. A plug-in hybrid can use a much smaller battery (enough to cover commute distance) and still delivers most of the CO2 emission benefits while removing range and cold weather anxiety.

I don't see LPG cars mentioned so maybe the solution for everyone who doesn't like electric cars is an LPG conversion. My 4x4 is LPG converted and it works well.