Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... o-shooting
Donald Trump, the leading contender to become the Republican party’s nominee for US presidential candidate, has called for a “total and complete shutdown” of the country’s borders to Muslims in the wake of the San Bernardino terrorist attack.

Trump made his most extreme pledge yet – in a race in which he has consistently pushed the boat out on issues of race and immigration – in a statement released to the media through his presidential campaign team.

He said there was such hatred among Muslims around the world towards Americans that it was necessary to rebuff them en masse, until the problem was better understood.


Trump campaign: 'Nothing wrong' with banning Muslims from entering US
Read more
“Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life,” the billionaire real estate developer said.

Trump put out his incendiary proposal just hours before he was scheduled to appear at a rally on board the USS Yorktown, a second world war aircraft carrier that is berthed near Charleston, South Carolina. The military location was carefully chosen for an address that falls on the 74th anniversary of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor that brought America into the war. After being interrupted several times aboard the ship, he said the proposal was “probably not politically correct, but I don’t care”.

To justify his extreme call for a total rejection of all Muslims seeking to enter the US, Trump turned to what he claimed to be polling data that underlined what he said was the violent hatred of followers of the faith toward Americans. However, the statement cites the Center for Security Policy, an organisation branded extremist by anti-race-hatred campaigners at the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Advertisement

“Shariah authorizes such atrocities as murder against non-believers who won’t convert, beheadings and more unthinkable acts that pose great harm to Americans, especially women,” Trump’s “policy statement” said.

The former reality TV star added: “Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine.”

Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski said Trump’s proposed ban would apply to “everybody”, including Muslims seeking immigration visas as well as tourists seeking to enter the country. Another Trump staffer confirmed that the ban would also apply to American Muslims who were currently overseas – presumably including members of the military and diplomatic service. “This does not apply to people living in the country,” Trump said in an interview on Fox News, “but we have to be vigilant.”

In an interview with the Guardian, Trump senior policy adviser Sam Clovis said: “I don’t think there is anything wrong about asking about religious affiliation.”

Trump’s remarks immediately drew condemnation from Democratic presidential candidate Martin O’Malley, who tweeted: “@realdonaldtrump removes all doubt: he is running for President as a fascist demagogue.” Other politicians on both sides of the aisle quickly followed suit – including former vice-president Dick Cheney.


Trump faces backlash from both parties after call to bar Muslims entering US
Read more
Trump has come under fire before for his contentious views on how to deal with the threat of domestic radicalization of Muslims. He has refused to rule out creating a government database of all American Muslims.

He has also called for the deportation of 11 million undocumented Hispanics, as well as said were he elected president, he would build a wall along the border with Mexico.

Since the Paris attacks orchestrated by Islamic State, and last week’s attack in San Bernardino, California by a married couple inspired by the terror group, Trump has sought to build his already substantial lead over his Republican presidential rivals by portraying himself as being tougher than all others on national security.

He responded in a tweet on Sunday night to President Obama’s Oval Office address on combating the Isis threat by saying: “Is that all there is? We need a new President – FAST!”

In his address to the nation on Sunday night, the president was at his most passionate when he made an appeal to Americans for tolerance in the aftermath of the California shooting.

Obama specifically sought to underscore that while Muslims have a responsibility to identify and reject extremism within their ranks, Americans cannot lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of Islam’s more than a billion followers are peaceful.


Play VideoPlayMute
Current Time 0:00
/
Duration Time 1:32
Loaded: 0%
Progress: 0%
Fullscreen
Facebook Twitter Pinterest
Highlights from the president’s rare address from the Oval Office
“We cannot turn against one another by letting this fight be defined as a war between America and Islam,” Obama said. “That, too, is what groups like Isil want. Isil does not speak for Islam. They are thugs and killers. Part of a cult of death. And they account for a tiny fraction of a more than a billion Muslims around the world, including millions of patriotic Muslim Americans who reject their hateful ideology.

“Muslim Americans are our friends and our neighbors. Our co-workers. Our sports heroes. And, yes, they are our men and women in uniform who are willing to die in defense of our country,” he added. “We have to remember that.”

Trump’s threat was met with perplexed anger on the part of prominent Muslim American groups. Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for the largest such group, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said on Twitter: “Where is there left for him to go? Are we talking internment camps? Are we talking the final solution?”

Obama condemned Islamophobia in America. It's time Republicans did, too
Nihad Awad
Read more
Republican presidential rival Lindsey Graham, one of a number who have seen their prospects of making headway in the campaign subsumed by Trump’s dominance, said: “What has been in the past absurd and hateful has turned dangerous.”

He told the Guardian: “Donald Trump today took xenophobia and religious bigotry to a new level. His comments are hurting the war effort and putting our diplomats and soldiers serving in the Middle East at risk. The way to win this war is to reach to the vast majority of people in Islamic faith who reject Isil and provide them the capability to resist this ideology.

Advertisement

“Today’s statement embraces a ‘fortress America’ approach, is doomed to fail and shows a complete lack of understanding by Donald Trump as to what the war is all about. As to interpreters and others who have helped American military in Iraq and Afghanistan, this policy, if enacted, would be a death sentence.”

Trump’s choice of polling data to hold up his highly controversial views was in itself inflammatory. He cited data that purported to show that a quarter of those Muslims polled – Trump did not specify what the sample group was, nor even what part of the world he was referring to – “agreed that violence against Americans here in the United States is justified as a part of global jihad”.

More than half of the unspecified sample group “agreed that Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to Shariah”.

The data was drawn from the Center for Security Policy, a neoconservative thinktank based in Washington DC whose founder and president, Frank Gaffney, is a prominent US Islamophobe. The Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate speech in the country, has described Gaffney as being “gripped by paranoid fantasies about Muslims destroying the west from within”.

The SPLC said that “Gaffney believes that ‘creeping Shariah’, or Islamic religious law, is a dire threat to American democracy”.

In 2011, Gaffney, a former Pentagon official in the Reagan administration, was barred from the influential Conservative Political Action Conference having suggested that two of its organizers had connections to the Muslim Brotherhood.

Additional reporting by Ben Jacobs in Washington
Not really much to say, except that Trump is basically a fascist, that any party that would nominate him is a fascist party, and that it is not hard to see things progressing from here to outright calls for genocide as Trump and his supporters keep becoming more extreme and more terrorist attacks keep happening.

I also believe it is time for Barrack Obama to publicly condemn Donald Trump as a fascist.
Channel72
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2068
Joined: 2010-02-03 05:28pm
Location: New York

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by Channel72 »

The only thing positive to come out of this was that basically all other Republican candidates condemned Trump for these remarks. I mean, yeah, of course they'll take any opportunity to bash Trump... but, you know, it's just rare to see Republicans saying anything positive about Muslims.

I particularly enjoyed Chris Christie's response:
"This is the kind of thing that people say when they have no experience and don't know what they are talking about. We do not need to resort to that type of activity nor should we," Christie said on the Michael Medved radio show. "What we need to do is to increase our intelligence activities. We need to cooperate with peaceful Muslim Americans who want to give us intelligence against those who are radicalized."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/07/politics/ ... index.html
User avatar
Wild Zontargs
Padawan Learner
Posts: 360
Joined: 2010-07-06 01:24pm

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by Wild Zontargs »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I also believe it is time for Barrack Obama to publicly condemn Donald Trump as a fascist.
Anyone considering a vote for Trump would likely treat such a condemnation as an endorsement.
Доверяй, но проверяй
"Ugh. I hate agreeing with Zontargs." -- Alyrium Denryle
"What you are is abject human trash who is very good at dodging actual rule violations while still being human trash." -- Alyrium Denryle
iustitia socialis delenda est
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I suppose that's true.

However, I also feel that it is part of the job of a President to provide leadership as best he can, and that silence is a form of tacit endorsement.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by General Zod »

Even though other candidates are publicly condemning him, I wager they actually think it's not a bad idea.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, Martin O'Malley was willing to say it:

http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-t ... ey-2015-12
Former Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley (D) on Monday declared that Donald Trump is a "fascist demagogue."

Following Trump's suggestion on Monday afternoon that the US should institute a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" for the time being, the presidential candidate tweeted that Trump had "remove[d] all doubt."


O'Malley, who has lagged behind front-runner Hillary Clinton and Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) in primary polls, has repeatedly criticized Trump for his inflammatory remarks about immigration.

"The fact of the matter is, and let's say it in our debate — because you'll never hear this from that immigrant-bashing carnival-barker Donald Trump — the truth of the matter is that net-immigration from Mexico last year was zero," O'Malley said during the Democratic presidential debate last month.

Trump — who has dismissed O'Malley as a "disgusting, little, weak, pathetic baby" — immediately responded in a tweet.
I like O'Malley. I'm actually tempted to vote for him instead of Sanders in the primary. Pity he doesn't have a prayer of winning. But I fondly wish for a Sanders/O'Malley administration.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Frankly, when I look at attitudes from many Americans towards Muslims these days, I see the potential makings of a genocide in the works. Remember that Hitler did not start with murdering 12 million people. He built up to, with increasingly severe repression. It terrifies me. We have to fight this now in the courts and at the ballot box, or I very much fear the next generation will be forced to fight it in the streets. And no, that is not an endorsement of political violence on my part. Its "I'm very afraid it could end up their if we don't do more now".
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by biostem »

Here are the Pew Polls for various aspects of Islam around the world. If they reflect the true beliefs/positions of the Muslims in those countries, then non-Muslims being hesitant about allowing Muslims into their country are very much justified. I'd also like to point out that there was no such justification for the treatment of Jews in Germany.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

biostem wrote:Here are the Pew Polls for various aspects of Islam around the world. If they reflect the true beliefs/positions of those countries, then non-Muslims being hesitant about allowing Muslims into their country are very much justified in their attitude. I'd also like to point out that there was no such justification for the treatment of Jews in Germany.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
People can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. First motherfucking Amendment.

In any case, it is morally bankrupt to punish or restrict all members of a group for the actions of some of those members. You are defending hatred towards all Muslims, regardless of individual beliefs or actions, based solely on the beliefs of other members of there religion.

As far as I am concerned, you are supporting fascism.
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by biostem »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
biostem wrote:Here are the Pew Polls for various aspects of Islam around the world. If they reflect the true beliefs/positions of those countries, then non-Muslims being hesitant about allowing Muslims into their country are very much justified in their attitude. I'd also like to point out that there was no such justification for the treatment of Jews in Germany.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
People can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. First motherfucking Amendment.

In any case, it is morally bankrupt to punish or restrict all members of a group for the actions of some of those members. You are defending hatred towards all Muslims, regardless of individual beliefs or actions, based solely on the beliefs of other members of there religion.

As far as I am concerned, you are supporting fascism.

And as far as I am concerned, you are partly responsible for every death due to a terrorist that is allowed in via such open-door policies.
User avatar
Joun_Lord
Jedi Master
Posts: 1211
Joined: 2014-09-27 01:40am
Location: West by Golly Virginia

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by Joun_Lord »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Frankly, when I look at attitudes from many Americans towards Muslims these days, I see the potential makings of a genocide in the works. Remember that Hitler did not start with murdering 12 million people. He built up to, with increasingly severe repression. It terrifies me. We have to fight this now in the courts and at the ballot box, or I very much fear the next generation will be forced to fight it in the streets. And no, that is not an endorsement of political violence on my part. Its "I'm very afraid it could end up their if we don't do more now".
While the treatment of Muslims isn't nice and certainly would be even less under a Trump Presidency (though thats probably true for everybody except tRump and his rich bitch buddies) I certainly don't think we are down the road towards genocide of Muslims. Thats true even if Trump did get his way and banned all the darkies......I mean Muslims......no wait I did mean darkies considering Trump wants to do the same thing to the Mexicans because he's a racist piece of shit who intends to do more damage to America then even his business practices and reality show did which was already quite considerable.

And there is a considerable difference in attitudes of fearing a people who've proven to threats to lives and your way of life (this is not me showing supporting for banning Muslims but merely stating the reasons people might think its a good idea, I personally think its a bad idea considering the greatest victims of Muslims are other Muslims but thats a whole other can of Cheerios) to general hatred, fear, and mistrust of a group that at most made people feel pissed because they were different. The fear of Muslims as a whole is still a stupid fucking attitude just the same as hating all black people because of some thugs did some thuggish things or hating all white people because of Justin Bieber but (hopefully) a considerably less deadly attitude then what the Germanistan people had that led to the Holocaust.
Grumman
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2488
Joined: 2011-12-10 09:13am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by Grumman »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
biostem wrote:Here are the Pew Polls for various aspects of Islam around the world. If they reflect the true beliefs/positions of those countries, then non-Muslims being hesitant about allowing Muslims into their country are very much justified in their attitude. I'd also like to point out that there was no such justification for the treatment of Jews in Germany.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
People can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. First motherfucking Amendment.
You have the right to reenter your own nation and the right to leave a nation (assuming you have committed no crime and have some place to leave to) but you have no right to enter a foreign, sovereign nation without the consent of that nation's government. Refusal of entry to the United States is not a violation of your rights, unless you are already an American.

Trump is still morally and mentally unfit to be President - the fact that he owns a casino alone is evidence of his abusive relationship with the people who would be his responsibility - but you don't need to back that up with the idiotic idea that we are not allowed to keep somebody out of the country unless they are already committing a crime.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

biostem wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
biostem wrote:Here are the Pew Polls for various aspects of Islam around the world. If they reflect the true beliefs/positions of those countries, then non-Muslims being hesitant about allowing Muslims into their country are very much justified in their attitude. I'd also like to point out that there was no such justification for the treatment of Jews in Germany.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
People can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. First motherfucking Amendment.

In any case, it is morally bankrupt to punish or restrict all members of a group for the actions of some of those members. You are defending hatred towards all Muslims, regardless of individual beliefs or actions, based solely on the beliefs of other members of there religion.

As far as I am concerned, you are supporting fascism.

And as far as I am concerned, you are partly responsible for every death due to a terrorist that is allowed in via such open-door policies.
You see no middle ground between "open door" with no restriction and barring all people of a certain religion?

Or are you just a strawmanning piece of shit without the balls for an honest debate?

As to your attempt to say that I am aiding terrorism and responsible for death because I don't believe in discriminating against all Muslims, that is a repulsive and defamatory post. It is frankly McCarythist, and confirms my suspicions regarding your fascistic leanings.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Grumman wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
biostem wrote:Here are the Pew Polls for various aspects of Islam around the world. If they reflect the true beliefs/positions of those countries, then non-Muslims being hesitant about allowing Muslims into their country are very much justified in their attitude. I'd also like to point out that there was no such justification for the treatment of Jews in Germany.

Source: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... -overview/
People can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't act on it. First motherfucking Amendment.
You have the right to reenter your own nation and the right to leave a nation (assuming you have committed no crime and have some place to leave to) but you have no right to enter a foreign, sovereign nation without the consent of that nation's government. Refusal of entry to the United States is not a violation of your rights, unless you are already an American.
Barring foreigners for their beliefs may not violate the letter of the First Amendment, but I would certainly say it violates the spirit of it.

Regardless, if Trump supports an absolute bar on Muslims entering the country, that would include American citizens who have left and are trying to return.
Trump is still morally and mentally unfit to be President - the fact that he owns a casino alone is evidence of his abusive relationship with the people who would be his responsibility - but you don't need to back that up with the idiotic idea that we are not allowed to keep somebody out of the country unless they are already committing a crime.
That is not what I said.

I said that we should not bar people simply for having ideologies we don't like.

Their are many other reasons to keep someone out, but I wasn't discussing those.

It looks like this is going to be another round of "everybody lie through their teeth about The Romulan Republic's arguments". So let me be very clear- the next time I see someone misrepresenting my position, I won't call them out publicly. I'll just report it.

Edit to avoid tripple-posting:
Joun_Lord wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Frankly, when I look at attitudes from many Americans towards Muslims these days, I see the potential makings of a genocide in the works. Remember that Hitler did not start with murdering 12 million people. He built up to, with increasingly severe repression. It terrifies me. We have to fight this now in the courts and at the ballot box, or I very much fear the next generation will be forced to fight it in the streets. And no, that is not an endorsement of political violence on my part. Its "I'm very afraid it could end up their if we don't do more now".
While the treatment of Muslims isn't nice and certainly would be even less under a Trump Presidency (though thats probably true for everybody except tRump and his rich bitch buddies) I certainly don't think we are down the road towards genocide of Muslims. Thats true even if Trump did get his way and banned all the darkies......I mean Muslims......no wait I did mean darkies considering Trump wants to do the same thing to the Mexicans because he's a racist piece of shit who intends to do more damage to America then even his business practices and reality show did which was already quite considerable.
Even if Trump doesn't intend to take it that far, he is stirring up hatred and bigotry, pushing the boundaries of what is considered acceptable, laying the ground work, weather he intends it or not, for someone else to go further. This is extraordinarily dangerous.

I do not make these accusations lightly, and would not do so if I did not feel that they have some merit. Genocide is not a word a responsible person uses lightly or flippantly.
And there is a considerable difference in attitudes of fearing a people who've proven to threats to lives and your way of life (this is not me showing supporting for banning Muslims but merely stating the reasons people might think its a good idea, I personally think its a bad idea considering the greatest victims of Muslims are other Muslims but thats a whole other can of Cheerios) to general hatred, fear, and mistrust of a group that at most made people feel pissed because they were different.
Except that as you noted, not all Muslims have proven they are threats, and so should not be treated as if they have.
The fear of Muslims as a whole is still a stupid fucking attitude just the same as hating all black people because of some thugs did some thuggish things or hating all white people because of Justin Bieber but (hopefully) a considerably less deadly attitude then what the Germanistan people had that led to the Holocaust.
Targeting a vast religious group without regard for individual differences is always dangerous and potentially deadly, regardless of the pretext given.
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by biostem »

Barring foreigners for their beliefs may not violate the letter of the First Amendment, but I would certainly say it violates the spirit of it.

Regardless, if Trump supports an absolute bar on Muslims entering the country, that would include American citizens who have left and are trying to return.
Is someone who hasn't even officially entered the country yet even subject to the constitution? Is or should a person whose ideology doesn't or wouldn't respect those same constitutionally guaranteed rights for others, be allowed into the country?

If you were interviewing a person for entry to the US, and they blatantly told you that they do not think that freedom of speech/expression should be permitted, that it is ok to kill those not of their religion, and that women should not have the same rights as men, would you welcome them with open arms?
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

biostem wrote:
Barring foreigners for their beliefs may not violate the letter of the First Amendment, but I would certainly say it violates the spirit of it.

Regardless, if Trump supports an absolute bar on Muslims entering the country, that would include American citizens who have left and are trying to return.
Is someone who hasn't even officially entered the country yet even subject to the constitution? Is or should a person whose ideology doesn't or wouldn't respect those same constitutionally guaranteed rights for others, be allowed into the country?
No, I don't believe a foreign citizen who has not entered the country is legally subject to all the protections of the Constitution, though I could be wrong about that.

But you ignored the second part of my post. Unless you are arguing that it should be possible to bar a Muslim citizen who leaves the country and then comes home on the basis of their faith. In which case you are arguing for violating the First Amendment.
If you were interviewing a person for entry to the US, and they blatantly told you that they do not think that freedom of speech/expression should be permitted, that it is ok to kill those not of their religion, and that women should not have the same rights as men, would you welcome them with open arms?
I would not welcome them exactly, but I wouldn't consider that good enough reason to bar them unless they were acting on or clearly intended to act on those beliefs.

Because it is very dangerous for a country to start dictating what beliefs people are allowed to have if they want to be here. It goes against the spirit of democracy at the most fundamental level, just as much as conservative/radical Islamic beliefs do. If their is one thing we should have learned from shit like the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, and NSA mass spying, it is that it is wrong to try to preserve democracy by betraying democratic principles.
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by biostem »

But you ignored the second part of my post. Unless you are arguing that it should be possible to bar a Muslim citizen who leaves the country and then comes home on the basis of their faith. In which case you are arguing for violating the First Amendment.
If you are a US citizen, then you should absolutely be permitted back into the country. If you committed a crime toward the US while overseas, regardless of your religious affiliation, (such as conspiring with an enemy of the US), then that should be addressed once you have returned.
Because it is very dangerous for a country to start dictating what beliefs people are allowed to have if they want to be here. It goes against the spirit of democracy at the most fundamental level, just as much as conservative/radical Islamic beliefs do. If their is one thing we should have learned from shit like the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, and NSA mass spying, it is that it is wrong to try to preserve democracy by betraying democratic principles.
I am not talking about simple internal beliefs; I am talking about beliefs that influence a person's actions, and it is those actions that concern me.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

If one commits, conspires to commit, or incites others to commit a violent, terrorist, or otherwise criminal act, that can be considered legitimate grounds to bar them from the country. Unless they're already American, in which case the appropriate course of action would be to let them back in and if possible, arrest and charge them on arrival. I'd much rather have a potential terrorist sitting safe in an American prison than deported to somewhere like Syria where they could fight our troops or try to sneak into America or another country.

What's the saying? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by biostem »

The Romulan Republic wrote:If one commits, conspires to commit, or incites others to commit a violent, terrorist, or otherwise criminal act, that can be considered legitimate grounds to bar them from the country. Unless they're already American, in which case the appropriate course of action would be to let them back in and if possible, arrest and charge them on arrival. I'd much rather have a potential terrorist sitting safe in an American prison than deported to somewhere like Syria where they could fight our troops or try to sneak into America or another country.

What's the saying? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

Now I realize that some people would lie, but is there any precedent for adding a questionairre of sorts to the entry process, like:

"How do you feel about people of different religions"
"Should people be able to leave their religion?"
"What sort of penalty should there be for leaving one's religion?"
"What is your opinion on the freedom of speech/expression?"
"Should there be limitations on what topics or portrayals should be protected by the freedom of speech?"
"What sort of punishment is acceptable for those who depict or write/say things that are offensive to one group or another?"


See, my issue is that if a person states that killing apostates is ok, and that death should be the punishment for depicting certain individuals, then maybe that's the kind of person we *don't* want in this country...
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7469
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by Zaune »

There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

biostem wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:If one commits, conspires to commit, or incites others to commit a violent, terrorist, or otherwise criminal act, that can be considered legitimate grounds to bar them from the country. Unless they're already American, in which case the appropriate course of action would be to let them back in and if possible, arrest and charge them on arrival. I'd much rather have a potential terrorist sitting safe in an American prison than deported to somewhere like Syria where they could fight our troops or try to sneak into America or another country.

What's the saying? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer?

Now I realize that some people would lie, but is there any precedent for adding a questionairre of sorts to the entry process, like:

"How do you feel about people of different religions"
"Should people be able to leave their religion?"
"What sort of penalty should there be for leaving one's religion?"
"What is your opinion on the freedom of speech/expression?"
"Should there be limitations on what topics or portrayals should be protected by the freedom of speech?"
"What sort of punishment is acceptable for those who depict or write/say things that are offensive to one group or another?"


See, my issue is that if a person states that killing apostates is ok, and that death should be the punishment for depicting certain individuals, then maybe that's the kind of person we *don't* want in this country...
Again, I have grave misgivings about applying an ideological test to entering the country. It would be a dangerous and undemocratic precedent.

I have no problem whatsoever with barring people for illegal actions (other than thinking it would be better to have them here in one of our prisons where we can keep an eye on them). Provided they are not already Americans.

On that note, you are also very carefully not addressing the question of weather it should be possible to bar a Muslim American who leaves the country and then returns. Answer it, please. Now.

Edited for clarity.
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by Starglider »

If you are willing to state outright, in an official setting, that people deserve to be murdered (by vigilantees if necessary) for nothing more than changing religion, having sex outside of marriage etc, that is hate speech and it does not come under the protection of any reasonable freedom of speech. As such I would consider it reasonable grounds to bar an immigration application, as it is a literal and credible death threat against fellow citizens.

The analogy to previous violence against Jews is a very poor one, because there were no large groups of Jews murdering civillians and demanding society comply to medieval orthodox traditions. Furthermore discrimination against Jews was primarily racial rather than religious. It is nonsencial to demand that someone stop belonging to their ethnic group, but it is entirely reasonable to demand that someone stop believing in (or at least, stop shouting) muderous rhetoric, as a condition of being allowed into a modern liberal country. Similarly it is much more reasonable to hold members of a religion responsible for the beliefs and actions of others of their religion, because unlike race, beliefs and actions are the only thing that define the group in the first place.
Last edited by Starglider on 2015-12-07 11:18pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by biostem »

What part of my response
If you are a US citizen, then you should absolutely be permitted back into the country.
did you not understand?

Muslim American = US citizen. Or, are you defining "Muslim American" to mean something different?
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Starglider wrote:If you are willing to state outright, in an official setting, that people deserve to be murdered (by vigilantees if necessary) for nothing more than changing religion, having sex outside of marriage etc, that is hate speech and it does not come under the protection of any reasonable freedom of speech. As such I would consider it reasonable grounds to bar an immigration application, as it is a literal and credible death threat against fellow citizens.
That doesn't sound unreasonable. If someone says outright that they think people should be committing murder, that's incitement of violence, and it bloody well should be illegal.

I simply think one should tread very, very carefully with the state censoring ideology, as opposed to actions. Of course, speaking out in support of criminal acts is incitement, and can be a crime.
The analogy to previous violence against Jews is a very poor one, because there were no large groups of Jews murdering civillians and demanding society comply to medieval orthodox traditions.
That sounds a lot like you're saying its not as bad to do it to Muslims because their are groups of Muslim extremists. In other words, that its okay to punish the whole faith for the actions of some of its members. Which is bigotry and discrimination.
Furthermore discrimination against Jews was primarily racial rather than religious.
While Islam is not a race, if you don't think their is a racial component to a lot of discrimination and hatred toward Muslims, you're an idiot. I'm pretty sure when the average Trump supporter thinks of a Muslim, they tend to picture a brown or black person.
It is nonsencial to demand that someone stop belonging to their ethnic group, but it is entirely reasonable to demand that someone stop holding (or at least, stop shouting) muderous rhetoric.
Yes. However, that is not an argument for barring Muslims (the original topic at hand here), because being Muslim does not equate to believing or shouting murderous rhetoric. Not by a long shot.

Do you agree with that?
Similarly it is much more reasonable to hold members of a religion responsible for the beliefs and actions of others of their religion, because unlike race, beliefs and actions are the only thing that define the group in the first place.
And we'll just ignore the fact that major religions are not anywhere near homogenous in their beliefs or actions, but are composed of different groups that are often at odds with each other? Well, that makes things nice and simple, doesn't it?
Grumman
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2488
Joined: 2011-12-10 09:13am

Re: Donald Trump calls for barring all Muslims from entering the US.

Post by Grumman »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Again, I have grave misgivings about applying an ideological test to entering the country. It would be a dangerous and undemocratic precedent.
Even if that was not a completely fucking retarded definition of "undemocratic", there are more important things than democracy. That's why we have civil rights defined in the Constitution, so that a voting majority of 50%+1 cannot use their democratically-given mandate to throw out the right to a fair trial.
Post Reply