SC Governor calls for removal of Confederate flag

[Borgholio]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charle ... te-n379801

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley called for the removal of the Confederate flag from the grounds of the state Capitol Monday.

"Today, we are here in a moment of unity in our state, without ill will, to say it is time to move the flag from the Capitol grounds," Haley said during a news conference attended by Republican senators Lindsey Graham, Tim Scott and other state leaders.

The announcement was met by applause and cheers from those in attendance.

The flag wasn't lowered to half-staff after the shooting along with the other flags at the Statehouse after nine people were killed at a historic African American church Wednesday because doing so is under the authority of the state's General Assembly — and so is taking it down.

Authorities have said the shooting was a hate crime, and a white supremacist website that may be linked to shooter Dylann Roof shows images that apparently show him holding the flag.

The General Assembly's session ended on June 4, but lawmakers are meeting Tuesday to pass a budget compromise, at which point they can vote on extending the session to debate the Confederate flag. A decision to continue the session would take two-thirds of the vote, as would passing legislation to take down the flag.

If they don't, Haley said she would use her authority to call them back into session to debate on the flag.

"There will be a time for discussion and debate, but the time for action is coming soon," Haley said. "We know bringing down the flag will not bring back the nine victims," but "we will not allow the symbol to divide us any longer."

"I hope that, by removing the flag, we can take another step towards healing and recognition - and a sign that South Carolina is moving forward," Graham said in a statement after the news conference.

Political and religious leaders in the state urged lawmakers to vote to remove the flag as early as Tuesday in tribute to the victims of the shooting.

"This act will do something very personal," Charleston Mayor Joe Riley said on Monday.

"Take away Mr. Roof's symbol of misguided idea of racial superiority and bigotry. Take it away from him and all like him and give the front of our state Capitol equally and fairly to every citizen of South Carolina," he said.

Rev. Nelson B. Rivers III, a National Action Network and NAACP official, called for the flag to come down before Rev. Clementa C. Pinckney, who was a state senator, lies in state on Wednesday. He was the pastor of Emanuel AME and one of the nine victims of Wednesday's shooting.

"We should not go another week with that symbol of hate that was adored by the man who killed them to sit in front of the people's house," Rivers said.

The leaders, also including Chairman of the Charleston County Council J. Elliott Summey, Senator Marlon Kimpson (D-Charleston), North Charleston Mayor Keith Summey and National Action Network state President Elder James Johnson, also called for residents to meet in front of the Statehouse Tuesday to urge the General Assembly to vote to take the flag down.

President Barack Obama believes the Confederate flag "should be taken down and placed in a museum where it belongs," but realizes that the decision is a state issue, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said during Monday's press briefing.

"This will be South Carolina's decision," Haley said Monday, but presidential candidates and other leaders have been weighing in on the issue. Presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) called for the removal of the flag Monday, and presidential candidate Jeb Bush commended Haley's announcement.

Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus called for the flag to come down Monday, and Mitt Romney asked South Carolina in a tweet Sunday to "remove it now."

The flag flew over the Capitol dome itself until 2000. Under a compromise, it was removed, and another version of the flag was hoisted atop a flagpole elsewhere on the grounds.

About god damn time. Nice to hear South Carolina is actually realizing just what the Confederate flag stood for. Only took a century and a half... :-/

[Rogue 9]

Just in time for National Burn the Confederate Flag Day!

[Iroscato]

It should be treated with the same contempt that we give the Nazi flag. Consign it to the junkyard of history, already.

[Sidewinder]

It should be treated with the same contempt that we give the Nazi flag. Consign it to the junkyard of history, already.

Well said. Too bad historical knowledge, logic, as well as compassion, are all in EXTREMELY short supply in the Southern states.

[Joun_Lord]

I think it should come down, be pissed upon, shat upon, and then tossed on some KKKers for good measure but not because of the shooting.

I understand the emotional want to do........something. The want to make a difference, to make something good of a tragedy. However I also think such efforts tend to be pretty ill conceived and possibly create more problems.

Don't get me wrong, the Confed flag should be taken down, no doubt aboot that. Its just doing it for the shooting I think is the incorrect response. There is probably a free speech argument to be made about the flag flying and bullshit about history, taking it down now sends the message that people's free speech might end because of a tragedy, history will be trampled, blah blah, Conservatives fears and rhetoric.

Its akin to the similar harping on guns (a topic I possibly talk too much about but I'm redneck so I'm allowed, check you're non-hillbilly privilege) after tragedies such as this. Some gun gets up and shoots some people all on its own and there is great and bountiful talk across the land of banning such terribad devices. A time when emotions are raw and wounds, physical and mental, are still fresh. There is the call to do.....something. Anything. There is little thought put into the intiatives, they are emotion driven acts that would many times not even come close to preventing the attack they are in response to.

Some of this is just whores using dead bodies to push their agendas, but others really are trying to do the right thing. However the right thing isn't the right thing, the thing they would do would not prevent similar attacks and criminalize people who didn't have anything to do with the attack beyond being in the same group.

Such a mentality is frankly stupid as shit. We rightfully get pissed when some racist ass douche tries to blame all black people for the actions of a few "thugs", we are disgusted when Christian fucks blame all gay people for some child rape committed some small number of pedophiles, we find it appalling when religious wackjobs accuse all atheists of being religious hating zealots because a few very loud cunts are religious hating zealots, why are gun owners treated as one monolithic groups where one members crime is the fault of them all?

Though I supposed the treatment of gun fetishists is a bit like the treatment of all men as potential rapists by some women or the view of all cops as racist thugs. Such things are objectionable to some but others might say its a bit fucked but unfortunately that is the response one must have because of the reality of life, most men might not be rapists but enough are to make women have serious problems, most cops are murderous morons but enough are to endanger minorities and the mentally ill.

Of course to my knowledge while women might be wary of men and blacks wary of cops their is no legal action taken against all men or cops in a sort of pre-crime fashion.

If their is to be gun legislation it should be unrelated to any tragedies, in a time of calm and thought, crafted with care and logic and not emotion. Such a thing should be the same with this reprehensible flag (and not only because it confuses young X-Men fans, seriously I had a friend who had a Confed shirt growing up who got it thinking it was an X-Men shirt, this was awhile ago when I was like in the 1st grade and the X-Men Fox saturday morning cartoon was airing back in the early 90s) it needs taken down but not as a emotional response but a reasoned one.

The I wish to do the totally logical and reasonable and not at all emotional act of pissing on it.

[Borgholio]

Well, didn't take long for this to snowball. Walmart just announced that they are ceasing sales of anything with the Confederate flag on it. Given how Walmart is pretty central to the deep southern way of life, this could be big.

[Channel72]

I'm pleasantly surprised how all these prominent Republicans are joining in on this - which indicates that even they realize there's a limit to how far to the right you need to go in order to court redneck voters during the primaries.

On the other hand... it's 2015. And we're actually still debating this? Why is this still a thing?

Also, given the uptick in white supremacy groups and websites these days (many of which are hosted in the US), should we perhaps consider taking a cue from Germany and sort of just... you know, putting a bit more restrictions on freedom of expression when it comes to groups who revel in our past sins? Or is that just too unpatriotic and slippery-slopish for America?

[Tanasinn]

Our second President ever tried to slippery slope the First Amendment to death. The slippery slope is real, a matter of objective historical fact.

As much contempt as I hold for the Confederacy and the idiots who promulgate the idea that the Civil War was an issue of "states' rights," I won't be party to attempts to control their speech, because history demonstrates that speech control will be used to suffocate ideas that the powerful do not like. Misguided European attempts to ban badthink have done nothing to kill racialism and fascism in Germany (where neo-nazism is alive and growing) or any other European nations, and abuses of libel laws in places like Britain show the very real and very modern danger speech control poses. Banning speech is a terrible idea if you want to fight an idea anyway - banning speech suggests you have no argument against it, and lends the banned ideas a mystique they don't have when people are free to express those beliefs and be mocked for them.

That said, a traitor's flag has no place in a house of government any more, I feel, than the ten commandments do. As for Wal-Mart not selling flag-branded products, that is their right as a private business and has no bearing on free speech at all.

[Grumman]

Also, given the uptick in white supremacy groups and websites these days (many of which are hosted in the US), should we perhaps consider taking a cue from Germany and sort of just... you know, putting a bit more restrictions on freedom of expression when it comes to groups who revel in our past sins? Or is that just too unpatriotic and slippery-slopish for America?

Yes, it is. The government should not be permitted to show support for a failed state founded on the exploitation and oppression of American minorities, and individuals should have the brain cells to recognise them as - at best - a bunch of assholes who poisoned the well on States' Rights by using it as an excuse to suppress individual rights, but censorship of the sort you desire is a cure far worse than the disease.

[FSTargetDrone]

Good. Next should be the removal of any and all statues of the various Confederate generals displayed on public lands. They can start by ejecting Lee's statue from Gettysburg. I don't care to see a memorial to the general-in-chief of the army of secessionists in a northern state, of all places.

[The Romulan Republic]

A memorial to Lee at Gettysburg of all places, not only a place in a northern state but a place where he was defeated and got a bunch of his own men killed (Pickett's Charge), is simply perverse.

[Grumman]

They can start by ejecting Lee's statue from Gettysburg.

Unless what I've read of Lee is inaccurate, I don't agree with that. If he was a voice in favour of ex-Confederates accepting their defeat gracefully, he's a good example for these Confederacy-loving idiots to follow.

[Block]

They can start by ejecting Lee's statue from Gettysburg.

Unless what I've read of Lee is inaccurate, I don't agree with that. If he was a voice in favour of ex-Confederates accepting their defeat gracefully, he's a good example for these Confederacy-loving idiots to follow.

He was against the whole thing from the beginning the way I understand it. He served his state, but much preferred a peaceful solution.

[Metahive]

Lee was a traitor who came closer than anyone else to destroying the US. He also allowed the capture of free blacks on northern soil to be sold into slavery. He was a butcher whose victories and defeats came at a high cost in manpower which the South couldn't actually afford. All his flaws and shortcomings were foisted on his subordinates like Longstreet by Lost Cause propagandists to carve his heroic post-war image.

No matter what he might have thought or said, his track record should preclude him from being considered any kind of "hero".

[Ziggy Stardust]

Why does the Governor need to "call for" the removal of the flag? Can't she just literally walk outside and take it down herself (or, more realistically, just tell the staff to do it)? I know that in government even the most ludicrously insignificant matters need to be passed through several layers of pointless bureaucracy, but isn't there some state-level equivalent of an executive order? Just take the fucking thing down. "Calling" for it to be removed just sounds like an attempt to pass the buck and play the middle; she comes out against the flag publicly, so she can't be decried for supporting it, but she also can't be criticized for removing it. She is pushing the responsibility for dealing with it onto somebody else.

EDIT: I missed the line in the article that says that the General Assembly has authority over the flag, not the governor's office. But ... still. It still feels incredibly disingenuous, and there's also something fairly ridiculous about the entire spectacle.

As much contempt as I hold for the Confederacy and the idiots who promulgate the idea that the Civil War was an issue of "states' rights," I won't be party to attempts to control their speech, because history demonstrates that speech control will be used to suffocate ideas that the powerful do not like.

But this isn't being used to control anybody's speech. They aren't making it illegal to show the Confederate flag. They are taking it down from the state Capitol. There is a HUGE difference, there (and, further, it is dubious to say that the right to freedom of speech even applies to the actions of a state government). Flying the flag over the state Capitol is implicitly an official acknowledgment and acceptance of the Confederacy and everything it stood for.

[K. A. Pital]

Maybe if the South actually secedes ("rises again"), it would be beneficial for the US? They can live in their crazy conservatopia, while the rest will join an alliance with Canada and have an easier time.

[Borgholio]

Why does the Governor need to "call for" the removal of the flag?

As per state law, only the State Assembly can call for the flag to be removed, installed, or flown at half staff. So it wouldn't be legal for the governor to do that. Even an executive order must be legal.

there's also something fairly ridiculous about the entire spectacle.

What's ridiculous is that it took this long for it to happen. With that said, the discussion has spread to Tennessee and Mississippi. Mississippi...of all places. Somehow I doubt it'll happen there since you can't get more Confederate than there, but the fact they're talking about it is impressive.

http://www.wdam.com/story/29381966/top- ... sippi-flag

[Joun_Lord]

Maybe if the South actually secedes ("rises again"), it would be beneficial for the US? They can live in their crazy conservatopia, while the rest will join an alliance with Canada and have an easier time.

Be good other then all that lost land and resources, all the people who don't want to enslave others or those who would be enslaved for states rights still left behind, and having a belligerent country with a massive land border with us right beside us.

The only thing that would maybe be good for it is when Cletus and his band of toothless white pride Southern Gentlemen decide to rise up with their army of like minded bloated waist fellows they would be cut down rather quick by the military and law enforcement ending forever the notion of the Confederacy rising again.

Though even that is not good considering its the deaths of atleast hundreds of people. While I can't say I would weep for the Confederate morons who get killed should they try to rise up (though I'd rather they didn't die at all as I don't think they are worthy of death just because they hold an ideology that is as reprehensible as one can be without strapping on some Hugo Boss, I'd much rather them to get a fucking clue and stop being fucking racist morons) but would feel considerably bad for the soldiers and cops killing putting these idjits down. Plus it wouldn't just be combatants dying and not only because most rednecks I've had the pleasure of meeting tend to be shit shots. I wouldn't put it past Neo-Confederates to try to act like Roof and starting round up "undesirables" to kill in any areas they occupy.

Plus joining up with Canada would be terrible. That defiled snowy wasteland is where Celine Dion and Justine Bieber came from, a land of misery and woe and maple syrup. Such an alliance would only lead to insanity and universal healthcare to treat that insanity.

No, I think we shall stick with our Southern states and not look to the north, that way lies madness.

[Channel72]

Maybe if the South actually secedes ("rises again"), it would be beneficial for the US? They can live in their crazy conservatopia, while the rest will join an alliance with Canada and have an easier time.

Economically speaking, the South is pretty useless - except for one colossal exception : Texas, which has an amazing economy and if it were to secede from the nation, it would definitely put a major dent in the overall GDP of the nation.

[Borgholio]

I think the loss of the Gulf ports would hurt the economy a fair bit.

[Zaune]

Maybe if the South actually secedes ("rises again"), it would be beneficial for the US? They can live in their crazy conservatopia, while the rest will join an alliance with Canada and have an easier time.

And be stuck with cleaning up the mess when they destroy themselves in a race-war after trying to reintroduce segregation, or worse?

[Elheru Aran]

Well, didn't take long for this to snowball. Walmart just announced that they are ceasing sales of anything with the Confederate flag on it. Given how Walmart is pretty central to the deep southern way of life, this could be big.

Eh. It'll probably be temporary. They took down Paula Deen stuff for a while when she got into some public trouble, but a few years later it's back. Walmart in general is a fairly conservative company with solid Bible-Belt roots. They probably won't rock the boat too much.

[Ace Pace]

Maybe if the South actually secedes ("rises again"), it would be beneficial for the US? They can live in their crazy conservatopia, while the rest will join an alliance with Canada and have an easier time.

Economically speaking, the South is pretty useless - except for one colossal exception : Texas, which has an amazing economy and if it were to secede from the nation, it would definitely put a major dent in the overall GDP of the nation.

You forget the prime real estate that is part of the south. The gulf ports, the space launch sites.

[Elheru Aran]

Maybe if the South actually secedes ("rises again"), it would be beneficial for the US? They can live in their crazy conservatopia, while the rest will join an alliance with Canada and have an easier time.

Economically speaking, the South is pretty useless - except for one colossal exception : Texas, which has an amazing economy and if it were to secede from the nation, it would definitely put a major dent in the overall GDP of the nation.

You forget the prime real estate that is part of the south. The gulf ports, the space launch sites.

Borgholio already mentioned the ports As for space launching... we still have Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. It'd complicate things as we would have to ship our space equipment there, but it's doable.

Talking about the South seceding again is a bit silly, though. It's pretty unlikely that they're going to try it.

[TheFeniX]

I never understood why the battle flag is considered the "Confederate Flag." I assume its use with white-supremacy groups in the mid-1900s had something to do with its popularity and, I don't care what you say, displaying it as anything more than a relic essentially screams "I'm backasswards."

As much as I think remembering even the terrible parts of our history is important, I could go my whole life without ever seeing a Rebel Flag again and not feel any poorer for it.