Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to death

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Dominus Atheos
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Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to death

Post by Dominus Atheos »

So another example of a mentally disturbed individual being killed by police who clearly had other options, and facing no punishment.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... tml#page=1
Park Forest cop acquitted in fatal beanbag shooting of WWII vet

The judge was only halfway through his ruling Wednesday when it became clear that Park Forest police Officer Craig Taylor would not be held criminally responsible for firing beanbag rounds at a knife-wielding World War II veteran who died hours later of internal bleeding.

In describing Taylor's actions that night in July 2013, Cook County Associate Judge Luciano Panici began using terms like "fearing for his life" and "reasonable use of force."

...

Taylor's acquittal on a single felony count of reckless conduct marked a dramatic end to a case that highlighted the difficulty of proving criminal charges against an officer who insisted he had acted out of fear for his life and that of other officers with him

An agitated Wrana had holed up in his room at the Victory Centre assisted living facility in the south suburb and threatened to kill the police.

"I really think other actions could have been taken and more restraint shown," Alvarez told reporters after attending an unrelated sentencing at the Leighton Criminal Court Building in Chicago.

Taylor, 44, had faced anywhere from probation up to three years in prison if convicted.

The case against Taylor unfolded amid national scrutiny on police use-of-force tactics sparked by the high-profile deaths of two unarmed black men in Missouri and New York. While lacking the racial element of those controversial cases, Taylor's trial focused on a similar theme: When should an officer's use of force be considered excessive?

In his ruling, Panici said the legal answer to that question requires thinking about the use of force "from the perspective of the officer, not the 20/20 vision of hindsight."

Noting that Taylor's commander — who was not charged — had come up with the plan to have Taylor shoot beanbag rounds from a shotgun if Wrana continued to disobey commands, Panici said Taylor's decision to fire five shots in rapid succession was "not excessive."

"He was faced with an advancing individual with a knife over his head, threatening to kill him and his fellow police officers," Panici said. "There was nothing criminal about his actions."

Alvarez said prosecutors considered charging the officer's supervisor as well but ultimately decided against it after a "legal analysis of accountability."

"Based on the facts and the law, we felt that the charges should only be brought against the officer who actually took the actions," she said.

After the ruling, Taylor's lawyer, Terry Ekl, told reporters it was a "shame" that Taylor had to go through the trauma of being arrested, handcuffed and brought to court. But he also said that by having the facts aired out in court, the public was able to see that Taylor "did absolutely nothing wrong."

Asked how the indictment had impacted Taylor, Ekl said, "He has not had a good night's sleep since the day he found out he was being indicted. He wakes up in the middle of the night. It's had a terrible effect on him emotionally."

Taylor, who has been on desk duty since being charged last April, hopes to return to active duty, but he still faces a multimillion-dollar wrongful-death lawsuit brought by Wrana's family in U.S. District Court. Ekl said he would not let Taylor publicly comment on his acquittal because of the pending lawsuit.

The Wrana family had no comment on the verdict. But in a statement issued to the Tribune on Wednesday afternoon, their attorney in the lawsuit said the family "looks towards their day in federal court where they believe that all (of) the persons responsible for John Wrana's homicide will be held accountable under the civil law."

Prosecutors argued during the three-day bench trial in January that Taylor and four other officers had rushed to judgment the night they were called to Wrana's room, deciding within minutes to employ a "violent extrication" that led to Wrana's death.

According to trial testimony, officers had twice gone into Wrana's room, only to retreat after he threatened them — first with a long, red-handled shoehorn and his black metal cane, later with a filleting knife with a 7-inch blade.

Cmdr. Michael Baugh conferred outside Wrana's apartment with Cpl. Lloyd Elliot, then instructed the group to form a "stack" — a staggered, single-file line — to enter Wrana's room, with Baugh in the lead carrying a shield and Taser, according to testimony.

Baugh ordered Wrana to drop the knife. When he didn't, the commander fired the Taser, but its prongs missed.

Taylor, who was second in the line, twice ordered Wrana to drop the knife and then fired the beanbag rounds. Four rounds struck Wrana, who dropped the knife into a small plastic garbage can after being struck in the hand by the final shot.

Wrana died five hours later after refusing surgery to repair an intestine that was torn and other injuries that caused massive internal bleeding.

In the trial's emotional highlight, Taylor testified that he feared for his life and those of his fellow officers when Wrana took a shuffling step forward with the knife raised. Taylor said that after the first shot or two failed to stop Wrana, he thought he had the authority to use lethal force — opening fire with his handgun — but chose not to, in part because of Wrana's advanced age.

Prosecutors alleged Taylor fired the rounds from a much closer range than called for during training. Their case also rested heavily on Francis Murphy, a former Secret Service supervisor who testified that the officers had other options and escalated the confrontation by storming Wrana's room.

Murphy testified the officers could have used their ballistic shield to knock Wrana to the ground, deployed pepper spray to disable him or simply retreated and allowed him time to cool off.

But the judge blasted those assertions in his ruling, saying staff at the facility had been trying to calm him down "for the entire day" to no avail.

"The evidence clearly indicated that Mr. Wrana had become more agitated as time progressed," Panici said.
Murphy testified the officers could have... simply retreated and allowed him time to cool off.
Clearly the best solution to a 95 year old man holed up in his room at an old folks home when he doesn't seem to be a threat to anybody.

It may be true that it was wrong to charge the officer who fired the beanbag rounds with a crime. It depends on how much America considers "I was only following orders" to be a valid excuse, but the officer who order the assault should definitely be charged with felony murder.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Zaune »

However physically frail he may have been, the man was armed with a deadly weapon and in a highly agitated state of mind, and for all I know there was another way out of his room that couldn't easily be blocked off. Neither was there really any really less-lethal method of disarming him; at that age even just grabbing his wrist and pinning him against the wall 'til he dropped the knife carried serious risks of injuring him.

It sounds like the cops had very few choices and they were all bad ones, frankly.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Grumman »

Dominus Atheos wrote:Clearly the best solution to a 95 year old man holed up in his room at an old folks home when he doesn't seem to be a threat to anybody.
It would seem to be a threat to the man he was threatening. You do yourself no favours by just making shit up when the facts do not support the narrative you wish existed.

If you don't want to die, don't advance on a cop with a knife while threatening to kill him. If doing that gets you killed, it's your own fucking fault.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Dominus Atheos »

A mentally disturbed 95 year old man alone in his own room, even if he has a knife, isn't a threat to anyone except himself. Certainly not enough of a threat to justify (less) lethal force. If they had bean-bagged him after he left his room, then it would be justified. There has to be an active threat against someone (besides himself) to justify lethal force.

And using lethal (even less-lethal) force against someone because they are a threat to themselves is... I guess the best term would be "counter-productive" (because the mods don't like it when you use terms like "Fucking Pants-On-Head Retarded")
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Grumman wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:Clearly the best solution to a 95 year old man holed up in his room at an old folks home when he doesn't seem to be a threat to anybody.
It would seem to be a threat to the man he was threatening. You do yourself no favours by just making shit up when the facts do not support the narrative you wish existed.

If you don't want to die, don't advance on a cop with a knife while threatening to kill him. If doing that gets you killed, it's your own fucking fault.
You know what, even if it makes the mods unhappy and with apologies to any mentally challenged people, you're a fucking retard. The old man wasn't "advancing", and the police created the threat by attacking him first. There was no threat to the officers until they used military tactics and "stacked" officers up to assult the room, his room at the old folks home he was in alone.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by TheFeniX »

Zaune wrote:However physically frail he may have been, the man was armed with a deadly weapon and in a highly agitated state of mind, and for all I know there was another way out of his room that couldn't easily be blocked off. Neither was there really any really less-lethal method of disarming him; at that age even just grabbing his wrist and pinning him against the wall 'til he dropped the knife carried serious risks of injuring him.
I think the risk of blunt-force trauma to a 95-year-old man is far less deadly than shooting him with multiple bean-bag rounds which are more than capable of killing someone much younger and in better physical shape. In fact, I can think of a lot of ways to not kill someone that don't involve rapid firing 1oz bags into their chest at 400FPS.

Since he, you know died, it's not a stretch to say maybe giving him more than 10 minutes to calm down or just tire himself out since he's ninety-fucking-five would have been a better course of action when he's in his own home, even if it's a retirement community.

The whole thing is kind of morbidly comical to me. If this were to be in a movie, you'd have 5 cops with all this riot gear kicking down the door because an old man has a knife. The smart-ass one would say something like "don't you think we're a little over-dressed for this party?"
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Highlord Laan »

insisted he had acted out of fear for his life
I am utterly sick and fucking tired of this excuse. Especially when they come from jackbooted thugs allowed to wear body armor, carry weapons, and are trained in the use of both. "Feared for his life" my ass. He's just another trigger happy little shitpiece coward like the rest of them.

And of course the judge ruled in his favor. The whole fucking system looks after their own better than they do everyone else.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Kon_El »

Dominus Atheos wrote:
Murphy testified the officers could have... simply retreated and allowed him time to cool off.
Clearly the best solution to a 95 year old man holed up in his room at an old folks home when he doesn't seem to be a threat to anybody.
The problem with that solution is that this took place in a nursing home. A situation like this would create a huge disruption of the needed care for the neighboring residents. Is it worth it to risk their health and well being by trying to wait him out?
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by TheFeniX »

Assisted living isn't the same thing as a nursing home. Assisted living is for people who don't need constant supervision, but people who just can't live alone due to disability or age and need help taking care of themselves.

I don't get the huge disruption part. He's contained in his room. He's belligerent... in his room. He can yell and scream and beat on walls... in his room. It's like shooting a dog in a cage because if you let him out, he might bite you. Yea, it's easier to just shoot the dog, because his barking is annoying and you're off the clock in 2 hours. But if you decide to shoot the dog with whatever you have on-hand: you're an asshole.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Kon_El »

TheFeniX wrote:Assisted living isn't the same thing as a nursing home. Assisted living is for people who don't need constant supervision, but people who just can't live alone due to disability or age and need help taking care of themselves.

I don't get the huge disruption part. He's contained in his room. He's belligerent... in his room. He can yell and scream and beat on walls... in his room. It's like shooting a dog in a cage because if you let him out, he might bite you. Yea, it's easier to just shoot the dog, because his barking is annoying and you're off the clock in 2 hours. But if you decide to shoot the dog with whatever you have on-hand: you're an asshole.
It's contained in his room unless he decides to come out. Thus that section of the hallway is either off limits or clogged up with cops. Which makes it difficult for those people to get the help taking care of themselves that they need. The question then becomes how long should they wait.
But the judge blasted those assertions in his ruling, saying staff at the facility had been trying to calm him down "for the entire day" to no avail.
There has to come a point where the situation needs to be resolved.

I also feel this to be highly relevant.
Wrana died five hours later after refusing surgery to repair an intestine that was torn and other injuries that caused massive internal bleeding.
What do you think his chances of living would have been if he hadn't refused treatment?
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Thanas »

So what prevented the cops from waiting outside his room with one or two officers with riot shields?

If you are afraid of an 95-year old in a fight of knife vs riot shield and baton then you don't belong on the force.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Nova Andromeda »

Some random ideas:

A. What if every cop that killed someone, no matter the reason or circumstance, was retired immediately. Perhaps given 6 months desk duty to find a new job and some reasonable amount of severance. The idea here is that a cops will hence forth be forced to choose between their current career and killing someone. Let us assume training and equipment are provided for the methods used to subdue people used in Europe.

B. Does A need to include something to make sure cops don't then just fail to protect people for fear of losing their jobs?

C. What if officer pay is based 75% on public feedback. That is, each officer is rated based on some metric including: what the people they've interacted with have to say - especially those they hurt/arrest, how many people they hurt in the course of their duties, how many people they help in the course of their duties, normalized for time/area/etc of operation, etc. I leave the actual metric unstated as I want to know if you can imagine any metric based on the above working/helping.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Highlord Laan wrote:
insisted he had acted out of fear for his life
I am utterly sick and fucking tired of this excuse. Especially when they come from jackbooted thugs allowed to wear body armor, carry weapons, and are trained in the use of both. "Feared for his life" my ass. He's just another trigger happy little shitpiece coward like the rest of them.

And of course the judge ruled in his favor. The whole fucking system looks after their own better than they do everyone else.
The judged ruled in his favor because it was a legal use of force and I will explain why. Whether he feared for his life isn't necessarily relevant to the justified or unjustified use of deadly force.

I'll quote the code and highlight the relevant parts;
(720 ILCS 5/7-5) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-5)
Sec. 7-5. Peace officer's use of force in making arrest. (a) A peace officer, or any person whom he has summoned or directed to assist him, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. He is justified in the use of any force which he reasonably believes to be necessary to effect the arrest and of any force which he reasonably believes to be necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest. However, he is justified in using force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or such other person, or when he reasonably believes both that:
(1) Such force is necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape; and
(2) The person to be arrested has committed or attempted a forcible felony which involves the infliction or threatened infliction of great bodily harm or is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon, or otherwise indicates that he will endanger human life or inflict great bodily harm unless arrested without delay.
(b) A peace officer making an arrest pursuant to an invalid warrant is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the warrant were valid, unless he knows that the warrant is invalid.
(Source: P.A. 84-1426.)
This is practically universally true all over the nation. If you're subject to arrest by police and your resistance is the use of a weapon that can cause serious bodily injury or death then deadly force can be used to defeat this resistance.

Now, that doesn't mean that these officers didn't screw up. They may have violated department policy and if they did they should have been held accountable for that but they can't be held accountable criminally because they did not violate any laws and that would be true if they shot and killed him with a firearm. He didn't even do that though. He used a weapon that was consider less lethal and did not fall within the deadly force category and on top of that the victim died because he refused surgery for five hours

Now this post shouldn't be taken to mean that I don't think there were better options. I think they should have treated it like a barricade, because that is what it was, so they contain the room and begin negotiations. Though due to the location of this event that may have required the evacuation of neighboring units and the time allowed before an assault would be drastically reduced. Still, I agree they should have done something else instead of assaulting the unit. Their tactics were very poor but if not part of their policy then they can't be fired. Because their actions did not violate law they can't be charged.

The only recourse now is the unpopular civil suit against the city for failure to train or something along those lines.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Nova Andromeda wrote:Some random ideas:

A. What if every cop that killed someone, no matter the reason or circumstance, was retired immediately. Perhaps given 6 months desk duty to find a new job and some reasonable amount of severance. The idea here is that a cops will hence forth be forced to choose between their current career and killing someone. Let us assume training and equipment are provided for the methods used to subdue people used in Europe.
Why would anyone be a police officer if you're punished for defending your life or the life of another person? How about we improve accountability and transparency before we start coming up with extreme solutions.
B. Does A need to include something to make sure cops don't then just fail to protect people for fear of losing their jobs?
Again, why would anyone want to be a police officer if they're going to be punished for acting and now not acting?
C. What if officer pay is based 75% on public feedback. That is, each officer is rated based on some metric including: what the people they've interacted with have to say - especially those they hurt/arrest, how many people they hurt in the course of their duties, how many people they help in the course of their duties, normalized for time/area/etc of operation, etc. I leave the actual metric unstated as I want to know if you can imagine any metric based on the above working/helping.
Do you honestly believe the people they arrest and don't hurt at all would give a fair rating?
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Grumman »

Nova Andromeda wrote:A. What if every cop that killed someone, no matter the reason or circumstance, was retired immediately. Perhaps given 6 months desk duty to find a new job and some reasonable amount of severance. The idea here is that a cops will hence forth be forced to choose between their current career and killing someone. Let us assume training and equipment are provided for the methods used to subdue people used in Europe.
Zero tolerance policies are a horrible idea. The only reason to give a cop a gun in the first place is out of recognition that sometimes, lethal force is the right choice. And if the cop does use lethal force when it is the right choice, it is immoral to punish him for doing the right thing and saving innocent lives just because whoever's in charge is too much of a coward to make judgements and stand by them.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by TheFeniX »

Kon_El wrote:It's contained in his room unless he decides to come out.
A task easily defeated by a $10 piece of rubber. Besides, he spent all day being angry in his room, only threatening people who came in. And these are small 300-500Sqft apartments, so he's pretty self-contained, like any apartment complex. I feel for the guy because at that point, it is his home. For all I know, he was just trying to enforce some semblance of control on his own world since he was at one point in charge of his own life, much like my grandmother did when she was put into assisted living, and he got killed for it.

He's dead because the best course of action police could come up with after 10 minutes was enter his home, taser a 95-year-old man, and have a bean-bag shotgun for backup.
Thus that section of the hallway is either off limits or clogged up with cops. Which makes it difficult for those people to get the help taking care of themselves that they need. The question then becomes how long should they wait.
To keep from possibly having to kill someone? Maybe all fucking week. If he injures himself in the mean-time, dems' the breaks. If policy won't allow for that, change the policy. Get family involved. Get councilors, just something besides 5 cops with riot gear and shotguns. You don't fucking have to do something all the time as a cop. Even other cops say that. De-escalation is a powerful tool cops don't like to use anymore for whatever reasons like looking weak or having to not be 100001% in control of a situation.
But the judge blasted those assertions in his ruling, saying staff at the facility had been trying to calm him down "for the entire day" to no avail.
There has to come a point where the situation needs to be resolved.
Contain and wait him out. Like cops should have done in the Chamberlain case. He's contained, possibly in an altered state of mind since even 95-year-old war vets generally don't stay belligerent all day for no reason. It's even possible he wanted to die or just didn't give a fuck anymore. But that shouldn't factor into decisions on force.
I also feel this to be highly relevant.
Wrana died five hours later after refusing surgery to repair an intestine that was torn and other injuries that caused massive internal bleeding.
What do you think his chances of living would have been if he hadn't refused treatment?
At 95, even routine surgery is dangerous. Many surgeons won't even try on anything but immediately life-threatening conditions. "Massive internal bleeding" also makes him surviving even less likely since he's so old, repairing the damage is just as likely to kill him.

Either way, his chances would have been a lot better had he not taken multiple rounds to the chest. You want to see what those things do? click here. Bonus points: you get to see Johnny Knoxville get wrecked. Also, notice how he's wearing a bullet-proof vest over his chest and crotch? That's because those rounds can easily kill you...... like in this case. In fact, I would expect multiple rounds like this to kill an elderly person.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by TheFeniX »

Ghetto Edit:
But that shouldn't factor into decisions on force.
Let my clarify here because re-reading this I seem to be saying cops shouldn't meter their decisions on what and when to use force based on the mental state of a suspect. What I meant to say was just because someone is threatening violence doesn't mean you have to respond with violence if their ability to inflict injury can be mitigated. Obviously, a 95-year-old man roaming the streets with a knife needs to be handled much more expediently. But in this case, locking yourself into your home and threatening to kill someone who enters is not the same thing. When "doing nothing" leads to the possibility of the suspect hurting only themselves and disrupting some other people's day to day lives and the only other option you can come up with is a taser with a bean-bag shotgun for backup: doing nothing becomes the prudent course since either of those option run a high-risk of killing the suspect. Tasers in of themselves kill way to many people a year for my liking. Without either tool, cops would have been forced into either physical force or (more importantly) negotiation/waiting, which I can't see being a terrible thing in this situation.

"Less lethal" tools can end up being a dangerous crutch for police officers that gets way more people killed than they should. You know if you drill a guy with 9mm rounds, he's probably going to die. But saying "well, this bean-bag shotgun is less-than-lethal" leads to situations where you have a disconnect. "I didn't mean to kill him" even though the weapon being used in that situation is at the least going to cause grievous injury.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Patroklos »

Dominus Atheos wrote:military tactics and "stacked" officers up to assult the room, his room at the old folks home he was in alone.
How the hell is that a military tactic? That's just how you take down a room regardless of who you are.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Purple »

Patroklos wrote:
Dominus Atheos wrote:military tactics and "stacked" officers up to assult the room, his room at the old folks home he was in alone.
How the hell is that a military tactic? That's just how you take down a room regardless of who you are.
Because a non militarized tactic would be to NOT ever assault the room to begin with. And to instead negotiate or hell just wait for the guy to fall asleep before walking in. He is 95, how long can he stay up anyway?
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Patroklos »

You response is irrelevant. If you are going to take down a room, and I assume you aren't so daft to say that's not a normal function for police (far more than the military), that's how you do it. Its not a military tactic. In fact I bet if you track it you will find its sourced from police agencies and not the military.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Purple »

Patroklos wrote:You response is irrelevant. If you are going to take down a room, and I assume you aren't so daft to say that's not a normal function for police (far more than the military), that's how you do it. Its not a military tactic. In fact I bet if you track it you will find its sourced from police agencies and not the military.
The point, which I can see in his post and you can't is that the act of "taking down the room" it self is a militarized tactics and that the police should not "take down a room" to begin with.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Patroklos »

So the police never deal with, say an abusive husband/father with a gun pointed at his children after he already shot his wife in the head? Or are we supposed to call the national guard in for that? Just let him die?

You can argue about whether they should have gone in in this case, but you can't argue that they should never go in unless you are a raving idiot. When they do go in there is a right way to do that and it is not "military" in any way shape or form.
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Purple
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Purple »

Patroklos wrote:You can argue about whether they should have gone in in this case
And that is really all everyone here is doing. Get with the program.

The argument is pure and simple that the militarization of american law enforcement has lead them making an ever increasing number of false calls when it comes to if they should attempt to storm a room and take people down. It has lead them to see that old, frail man cooked up in his own room all by him self as being equal to the child murdering psychopath you gave as an example. And that is bad. If you can't see that than well frankly you are even more out of touch with america than I am. And I live an ocean away from it.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Patroklos
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Patroklos »

Purple wrote: And that is really all everyone here is doing. Get with the program.
No, its not:
Dominus Atheos wrote:
You know what, even if it makes the mods unhappy and with apologies to any mentally challenged people, you're a fucking retard. The old man wasn't "advancing", and the police created the threat by attacking him first. There was no threat to the officers until they used military tactics and "stacked" officers up to assult the room, his room at the old folks home he was in alone.
From the OP starter no less. Also the exact line I quoted before you stumbled face first into a conversation you are not equipped to handle. All I said was that is not a specifically military tactic. If you read something else into that one line that's your problem.
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Thanas
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Re: Cop acquitted after bean-bagging 95 year old man to deat

Post by Thanas »

Does it matter if it is a military tactic or not? If not, please stop this. If yes, then explain why.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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