Rioting in London?

[Chirios]

I live in Croydon, so this is happening a few miles down the road. Public transport has been shut down in the town center and there is some smoke visible. To be clear, the affected area is not a 'council estate'; it is a shopping area. This is smash and grab under the cover of arson - at least in Croydon, they aren't burning the places they actually live in.

They're 'terrifying' basically because no one can or will put up any resistance. The population is conditioned to rely completely on the police, and the police are either unable or unwilling to respond. Anyone attempting to defend their community would be derided as vigilantes and probably charged with a much worse sentence than the rioters. The rioters themselves don't seem terribly violent or willing to risk personal injury, they just see it as free stuff and a night of fun with virtually zero consequences. They won't even lose their benefits.

Nobody would be willing to confront a group of, what, fifty+ kids, all armed with baseball bats, crowbars, at least in Walthamstow with Samurai swords and knives as well. I don't blame the police, dealing with something like this is difficult. They'll do what they can to arrest those they can, that's all we can really ask from them.

[Starglider]

I bet taking their benefits would significantly reduce their proclivity to violence, right?

Actually yes, assuming this is only for those successfully charged with being in riots. When you and everyone you know lives on benefits, and employment is virtually unthinkable, having them cut off is genuinely frightening. I spent plenty of time in these social groups when I was younger.

This kind of rioting is due to a decline in both the carrots and the sticks that motivate people to be responsible members of society. The carrot is the opportunity for young people to get a decent income and stake in society and with massive youth unemployment (particularly poor, low-education and ethnic moniroties) and an uptick in fear of youth by the eldery the carrot is looking pretty mangy. Sadly there is no quick or easy way to fix this problem and I think it will get worse before it gets better.

The stick is personal consequences for criminal behavior and locking more people up is not the answer either; the UK's incarceration rate isn't comparable to the US but it has still been trending up and the cost of imprisoning people has been growing even faster. Prison conditions have improved so much, for young offenders in particular, that it is a minor inconvenience if not a holiday.

If they're nonviolent they'd be easy to scare off with any body of people; how could that possibly result in any charges?

They aren't non-violent in a pacifist sense, this the 'happy slapper' set, casual violence is cool. They'll happily kick people who won't fight back, or lob rocks at police who are huddled in roadblocks. What they won't do is get into a fight with serious risk of personal injury - they don't have the desperation of really dangerous mobs. Marching down there in a determined armed group would scare them off - admittedly to search for easier pickings - but holding a Dooey Jo approved peaceful sit-in in of concerned citizens would result in lots of Youtube videos of people getting a brick to the face.

In better times this wouldn't be a big deal, but the fact is that with a renewed recession this sort of violence is going to get more frequent and more serious. There is no money to double police headcounts to keep things under control (I hope - if there was it would be because everything else has been slashed). Distasteful as you probably find the concept of self-defence, if this becomes a regular occurance there won't be any other practical options.

Maybe if the cops had a setting between 'do nothing' and 'kick the shit out of everyone' things wouldn't be so bad for you guys.

Which is what exactly? Feel free to give an example of police tactics that work for ordinary police facing random riots - this isn't a G8 summit with massive preparations and specially trained riot police on hand. I'd note that 'kick the shit out of everyone' is still a big improvement on the US right-wing tactic of 'start shooting into the crowd'.

[TC27]

The perception is that the police have lost control of the situation and wont help people as their houses and business are burned and looted.

This is what David Cameron must address tomorrow even if he has to pull officers in from every part of the country - unless law and order is restored we will see vigilantes and inter-ethnic warfare break out in London (already happening - the Turks have formed a vigilante mob to protect their shops which is fair enough as the Police apprantly wont help).

[Broomstick]

Nobody would be willing to confront a group of, what, fifty+ kids, all armed with baseball bats, crowbars, at least in Walthamstow with Samurai swords and knives as well. I don't blame the police, dealing with something like this is difficult. They'll do what they can to arrest those they can, that's all we can really ask from them.

Here in the US, a group of 50+ armed with baseball bats, crowbars, and similar weapons of opportunity would be met by police trained in crowd control, some of them mounted, some with dogs, with a selection of weapons starting at shields and batons up through rubber bullets, tear gas, and yes, possible real bullets. The usual technique is to use the mounted police and phalanxes of officers with riot shields/gear to sub-divide the mob into smaller groups that are more easily controlled, which can be surprisingly effective.

In the 1960's we learned that while a mob can easily overturn a police vehicle, police horses are not so easily toppled, they are capable of fighting back, and if overturned are capable of righting themselves. They are also harder to set on fire.

Of course, in the US rioters are also more likely to have guns of their own than in the UK, which adds a slightly different dimension to US riots. I also think the US has slightly different laws on self-defense, and defense of property, that make it more likely for property owners to fight back, yes, even with guns.

[Broomstick]

I bet taking their benefits would significantly reduce their proclivity to violence, right?

Actually yes, assuming this is only for those successfully charged with being in riots. When you and everyone you know lives on benefits, and employment is virtually unthinkable, having them cut off is genuinely frightening. I spent plenty of time in these social groups when I was younger.

That would only work for some of the benefit-dependent. When you actually cut folks like that off benefits then you wind up with desperate, frightened people who no longer have anything to lose. That could up the violence instead of decreasing it.

I'd note that 'kick the shit out of everyone' is still a big improvement on the US right-wing tactic of 'start shooting into the crowd'.

Note two things please:

First, "start shooting into the crowd" is NOT the first tactic employed by US police. That is the last tactic taken out of the tool box.

Second, US police, as opposed to UK, are far more likely to be facing a crowd possessing firearms, that is able and willing to shoot at them.

[Dartzap]

Here in the US, a group of 50+ armed with baseball bats, crowbars, and similar weapons of opportunity would be met by police trained in crowd control, some of them mounted, some with dogs, with a selection of weapons starting at shields and batons up through rubber bullets, tear gas, and yes, possible real bullets. The usual technique is to use the mounted police and phalanxes of officers with riot shields/gear to sub-divide the mob into smaller groups that are more easily controlled, which can be surprisingly effective.

Have you not seen the pictures? Theres been full on cavalry charges in some parts, as well as armoured phlanxes of riot officers. They have done exactly that, but the arseholes have fled to other areas rapidly in opposite directions.

As for the water-cannon - none on the mainland due to use in NI, and the rubber bullets will be needing higher authority than the met-chief - probably the Home Sec. I imagine that'll get ok'd at COBRA tomorrow.

[Chirios]

Here in the US, a group of 50+ armed with baseball bats, crowbars, and similar weapons of opportunity would be met by police trained in crowd control, some of them mounted, some with dogs, with a selection of weapons starting at shields and batons up through rubber bullets, tear gas, and yes, possible real bullets. The usual technique is to use the mounted police and phalanxes of officers with riot shields/gear to sub-divide the mob into smaller groups that are more easily controlled, which can be surprisingly effective.

In the 1960's we learned that while a mob can easily overturn a police vehicle, police horses are not so easily toppled, they are capable of fighting back, and if overturned are capable of righting themselves. They are also harder to set on fire.

Of course, in the US rioters are also more likely to have guns of their own than in the UK, which adds a slightly different dimension to US riots. I also think the US has slightly different laws on self-defense, and defense of property, that make it more likely for property owners to fight back, yes, even with guns.

True, but I was talking about civilians which is what Starglider was suggesting. And they are doing that here, or at least trying to. The problem is that people who are in their houses are leaving to go and watch the looters... loot, and getting in the police's way thereby. And the cops are worried about agitating the situation if they simply beat up everyone who is in the local area.

They'll happily kick people who won't fight back, or lob rocks at police who are huddled in roadblocks. What they won't do is get into a fight with serious risk of personal injury - they don't have the desperation of really dangerous mobs. Marching down there in a determined armed group would scare them off - admittedly to search for easier pickings - but holding a Dooey Jo approved peaceful sit-in in of concerned citizens would result in lots of Youtube videos of people getting a brick to the face.

Again, that's true, but you're ignoring the fact that most people haven't had a fight in their lives, and if they have haven't had one since secondary or primary school. They aren't going to have the confidence, or the ability really, to walk up to a gang ready to fight. And that's assuming you live in one of the better areas. In Walthamstow, Hackney or Brixton there's a good chance that some of them will be carrying knives and other weapons, making it even more dangerous. Remember the "on the street" interviews that they were having in Peckham? Talking about the various youth gangs who had come together to fight the police and rob stores, this isn't just the happy slap community.

[Teebs]

Here in the US, a group of 50+ armed with baseball bats, crowbars, and similar weapons of opportunity would be met by police trained in crowd control, some of them mounted, some with dogs, with a selection of weapons starting at shields and batons up through rubber bullets, tear gas, and yes, possible real bullets. The usual technique is to use the mounted police and phalanxes of officers with riot shields/gear to sub-divide the mob into smaller groups that are more easily controlled, which can be surprisingly effective.

In the 1960's we learned that while a mob can easily overturn a police vehicle, police horses are not so easily toppled, they are capable of fighting back, and if overturned are capable of righting themselves. They are also harder to set on fire.

Of course, in the US rioters are also more likely to have guns of their own than in the UK, which adds a slightly different dimension to US riots. I also think the US has slightly different laws on self-defense, and defense of property, that make it more likely for property owners to fight back, yes, even with guns.

The police here are quite capable of bringing out horses and similar tactics. I think they are being restrained because of the worry about negative perceptions when the original trigger was a police shooting. Interestingly they've also been complaining on the news about large numbers of people 'spectating' and how this has interfered with their operations. No idea how valid that is as a complaint.

I hope it doesn't take someone dying for this to end.

[UnderAGreySky]

Things are slowly turning around. From the Grauniad:

We've detoured to Dalston where a bus was set on fire in shacklewell lane earlier. The single deck bus is now cordoned off and there doesn't seem to be much damage, but the incident has clearly shaken the large Turkish community here. Many shopkeepers are on the street talking about how they chased away the gang of youths behind the bus fire.

"We beat up four of them quite badly and they ran off," one man, who wouldn't give his name, said. Another said: "this is not justice, coming here and trying to attack us." Notably several businesses are still open ascot usual here, unlike other violence hit areas.

We've just watched a mob of locals chase a gang of hoodies down the main road, with police vans on full siren in pursuit.

[Starglider]

Here in the US, a group of 50+ armed with baseball bats, crowbars, and similar weapons of opportunity would be met by police trained in crowd control, some of them mounted, some with dogs

In a large city, there might be mounted police and riot control on call 24/7. What about a town of 100,000? Of 10,000? Smaller towns will not have those kind of resources - in fact small towns in the US are more likely to have a SWAT team ready to execute forced entries under cover of snipers than a serious riot control force.

with a selection of weapons starting at shields and batons up through rubber bullets, tear gas, and yes, possible real bullets.

Technically those things are all available in the UK, but the chances of actually getting authorisation to use firearms are pretty much zero. That's probably for the best, but unfortuantely effective and relatively safe tools such as water cannon have also been driven into extinction by the 'can't risk hurting the poor rioters, who are the real victims here' crowd.

The usual technique is to use the mounted police and phalanxes of officers with riot shields/gear to sub-divide the mob into smaller groups that are more easily controlled, which can be surprisingly effective.

Mounted police and to a lesser extent dog units take time to gear up and deploy. They are effective when you can guess in advance where the riots will take place (e.g. political events), which take time to build up or which go on for days. It's much harder to deploy them in time to prevent massive property damage when you have little warning when and where the mob will strike. At the time the Croydon incident stated, traffic alone was a 40 minute delay between central London and Croydon.

I also think the US has slightly different laws on self-defense, and defense of property, that make it more likely for property owners to fight back, yes, even with guns.

Certainly, which drives up the fatality rate, although recent US mob violence has had surprisingly little gun use.

First, "start shooting into the crowd" is NOT the first tactic employed by US police. That is the last tactic taken out of the tool box.

I know. I said that it's a solution favoured by the right wing; for example go over to the HPCA board, and the favoured solution to the Detroit flash mobs is 'shoot them all'.

[Broomstick]

Here in the US, a group of 50+ armed with baseball bats, crowbars, and similar weapons of opportunity would be met by police trained in crowd control, some of them mounted, some with dogs, with a selection of weapons starting at shields and batons up through rubber bullets, tear gas, and yes, possible real bullets. The usual technique is to use the mounted police and phalanxes of officers with riot shields/gear to sub-divide the mob into smaller groups that are more easily controlled, which can be surprisingly effective.

Have you not seen the pictures? Theres been full on cavalry charges in some parts, as well as armoured phlanxes of riot officers. They have done exactly that, but the arseholes have fled to other areas rapidly in opposite directions.

No, honestly, I have not seen those pictures - actually, I've been at work all day but perhaps it's time for me to hit my UK news bookmarks and get properly updated. The US has also been have problems with mob violence this week, though not quite on the scale London has, so gangs of 20-100 youths beating the shit out of random victims in Chicago and Milwaukee have sort of eclipsed most of the London news.

Hell, half the reason I stay on SD.net is to know when the US media is failing to talk about something.

If current tactics aren't working it may be time to ratchet up the response, as repellent as that might be.

[UnderAGreySky]

As an added comment, I'm not surprised to see the immigrant population - especially the older lot - in the above quote standing up to beat the crap out of looters. Half of them come from second and third-world countries, work their arses off to provide upward mobility for their kids and don't take crap from anyone. They are also less likely to be reliant on cops and authority for protections, since it rarely works in the places they come from.

More often than not though it's the second/third generation immigrant children that *I have encountered* that come across as entitled, whiny, arrogant and rebellious.

That comment is from personal experience, but I've seen it too often to not suspect a pattern there.

Edited to add: Here's a map of the affected areas.

To everything, burn, burn, burn...

[Chirios]

Quote from a lady who came across some youths acting buckwild:

This is about a man who got shot in Tottenham this ain't about you lot getting to say that you're warring and that you're badman!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/ ... night-live

Scroll down there and you'll see the video.

[Bluewolf]

It has now spread to Eeling in, West London. Fires, looting, property damage. It also spread to Birmingham.

Ghetto Edit from the BBC:

2335: Police at the scene of the Croydon disturbances are investigating a "non-fatal" shooting, according to a source.
No more details are immediately available.

[Chirios]

http://yfrog.com/z/h07mxcyzj

Piece of paper found in Dalston with advice that was given out about how to avoid arrest. Thing is, this is really good advice as well. Whoever wrote it has either been arrested quite a few times or is a law student.

[Bluewolf]

Looting now on Old Kent Road and Tower Bridge.

[Stark]

You'd think there'd be steps taken to poltically separate the looters from the original rioters and deal with them. Taking a 'hands off' approach an then being surprised everyone notices and jumps into the action is stupid.

[Broomstick]

Here in the US, a group of 50+ armed with baseball bats, crowbars, and similar weapons of opportunity would be met by police trained in crowd control, some of them mounted, some with dogs

In a large city, there might be mounted police and riot control on call 24/7. What about a town of 100,000? Of 10,000? Smaller towns will not have those kind of resources - in fact small towns in the US are more likely to have a SWAT team ready to execute forced entries under cover of snipers than a serious riot control force.

Cities of 100,000 might well have a police unit trained in crowd control. A lot of smaller cities have mutual aid agreements either with each other or with larger cities nearby. We put a lot of this in place during the 1960's when the US was seeing over a hundred significant riots a year. Admittedly, I have no idea how European nations are set up to deal with these things, though I expect I'll learn more in the near future. Your police hierarchies are structured quite differently from ours as well, that may affect how easy it is or isn't to get extra assistance.

I will also point out that gun ownership is higher in small town and rural US than in the big cities of the US, and the residents will defend themselves. This does change the dynamic considerably.

The usual technique is to use the mounted police and phalanxes of officers with riot shields/gear to sub-divide the mob into smaller groups that are more easily controlled, which can be surprisingly effective.

Mounted police and to a lesser extent dog units take time to gear up and deploy. They are effective when you can guess in advance where the riots will take place (e.g. political events), which take time to build up or which go on for days. It's much harder to deploy them in time to prevent massive property damage when you have little warning when and where the mob will strike. At the time the Croydon incident stated, traffic alone was a 40 minute delay between central London and Croydon.

In large US cities like NYC and Chicago there are mounted patrols active at all times, so they're already "geared up" and "deployed". When there isn't unrest they do a lot of PR work, but there are always mounted police on the street in downtown Chicago (as an example) so they're available pretty much instantly. Ditto for dog units - they're a common site everywhere in the US. (There is even a form of armor for police dogs, originally developed by the US military for war dogs, but utilized by urban police forces when they feel it appropriate, such as during drug raids and yes, riots.)

Of course, there are no guarantees that police will always be able to control a crowd before thing get ugly. A big enough crowd that outnumbers police is going to cause a lot of damage.

I also think the US has slightly different laws on self-defense, and defense of property, that make it more likely for property owners to fight back, yes, even with guns.

Certainly, which drives up the fatality rate, although recent US mob violence has had surprisingly little gun use.

I think that, given the rioters are well aware that people on the sidelines, or whom are being targeted, may be heavily armed, makes US rioters slightly less inclined to attack other people. Slightly. And not too many people, even in a mob, are inclined to charge into gunfire. It's not impossible, just not likely.

I wonder if US riots have more property damage? Rioters might be more inclined to target property, particularly undefended property, than take on other people? Not sure, and don't really have the time to research the question. I know that during the LA "Rodney King" riots some neighborhoods organized themselves and present enough of a threat/defense that the rioters left them largely untouched. However, I don't think people in the UK have the option of standing on a rooftop with a half dozen neighbors, everyone holding rifles, shouting "If your ass comes closer we'll open fire". The other thing is that, in the US, those opening fire on a mob approaching them might well suffer little or no legal penalty when all is said and done. (They might also get charged with murder and wind up in front of a judge, but historically US juries have tended to excuse such actions under riot conditions)

NOTE: tonight's TV "world" news does have video of burning streets, mounted police, and a report of "reinforcements" being brought in from outside London. Still sandwiched between reports of violence and economic worsening in the US. It's not that we don't care about the UK, but we've got problems of our own taking up our attention.

[Stark]

Can we not turn this thread into YET ANOTHER gun control thread or YET ANOTHER police thread?

And seriously, someone lecturing people in the hot zone based on world news reports is just sad. Giant posts about the US in a thread about something happening in London are hardly providing news.

[HMS Sophia]

According to the BBC, both David Cameron and Ed Milliband are cutting their holidays short. Isn't that nice of them?
(And why does he keep leaving the country to Nick clegg )

Spoiler

So COBRA is english? Who'da thunk it.

[Zaune]

Spoiler

So COBRA is english? Who'da thunk it.

You have no idea how badly I needed that laugh. Thank you.

[Broomstick]

Can we not turn this thread into YET ANOTHER gun control thread or YET ANOTHER police thread?

And seriously, someone lecturing people in the hot zone based on world news reports is just sad. Giant posts about the US in a thread about something happening in London are hardly providing news.

Is there something wrong with comparing how different countries handle similar problems?

I also think it's significant that this sort of unrest is not merely a UK phenomena. I also think it is sad that these riots are not getting the play they should, because this kind of unrest in a world class city like London is internationally news-worthy.

And please don't blame the lecturing on just the US - this particular offering:

You'd think there'd be steps taken to poltically separate the looters from the original rioters and deal with them. Taking a 'hands off' approach an then being surprised everyone notices and jumps into the action is stupid.

came from Australia, after all. Perhaps you remember it, Stark?

[Big Orange]

Maybe the politicians should reconsider their budget cuts to law enforcement and military then, eh?

Sorry to learn that you live not far from the troubles in Croydon, Starglider, that old furniture store getting turned into a huge pillar of white hot fire was genuinely terrifying and I'm starting to get paranoid (cars have been set alight in Liverpool and I wouldn't be surprised if problems will return to Bristol).

The police can deal with socialists and students (people from pampered backgrounds who conveniently gather at pre-determined marches), but this huge mob of young crooks created by a dysfunctional, dying Capitalist system have no rythm and rhyme in their pattern of attack, many of them are essentially sociopaths (lack of a firm but fair father figures in their upbrining), and they have caught everybody off guard. I'm worried that when the government gets organized and launches a proper retaliation they'll now clamp down even harder on large gatherings of people with more legitimate grievances and a police state infrastructure could be established by popular demand that will make the UK resemble the dystopian UK from Children of Men (or City 17 from Half-Life 2).

[Chirios]

Isn't the violence in Liverpool in the same place as where that little kid got shot a few years ago?

[Big Orange]

Events are moving too fast for the media and authorities to keep up with, I'm worried about tomorrow and what's been hit by looters next.