Uprising in Libya

[General Zod]

Well Gee, the fact that the Chinese have already removed about 9,000+ of their own nationals from Libya?

They've done everything from fly special charter air flights from Libya to Beijing to evacuate high value people like engineers and their families.

They've chartered multiple ships that can carry 2500 to 3500 people each to get a lot of other people out.

They've also hired hundreds (maybe as high as 400) trucks and buses in Egypt, Tunsia, and Algeria to form special convoys guarded by people they've paid off to transport even more people out of Libya via the roads.

It's basically the biggest mass evacuation so far in modern Chinese history of their nationals, and meanwhile, the best we can do is a single ferry?

Fer some reason I doubt the number of US Nationals in Libya reaches even 4 digits. One ferry should be enough.


FWIW I've heard rumblings elsewhere that Gaddafi indicated it would be a cold day in hell before he allows USAF aircraft to land in Libyan airports/air facilities, and that we've had trouble finding appropriate aircraft to charter out. The reason why we've finally gotten down to "a Ferry" is because there aren't any amphibious vessels on hand and the USN is showing an unwillingness to put a CG or DDG pierside in Libya for security reasons.

The US had a plane chartered to fly out its citizens on Wednesday but they were denied permission to land. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/world ... te.html?hp

[Lonestar]

The US had a plane chartered to fly out its citizens on Wednesday but they were denied permission to land. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/world ... te.html?hp

Then there you go. I still doubt that the number of US Nationals in Libya meets 4 digits.

FWIW when I posted the other post earlier this morning I glanced up at the BIG MAP at work and confirmed that yes, the Mount Whitney was still pierside because of scheduled slowly rusting away maintenance. There just were not that many options on the table for the evacuation.

[General Zod]

I still doubt that the number of US Nationals in Libya meets 4 digits.

Over 300, according to the link I posted. So definitely not in the 4-digit range.

[HMS Sophia]

Gaddafi is threatening to arm his loyal citizens and turn Libya into "a red fire"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
that link references the speech

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... een_Square
there we go.
Looks like he is getting ready to start a civil war. BBC has made a big point out of the fact that the rebels have many less loyal troops than Gaddafi does...
Ah shit is all I have to say

[CaptainChewbacca]

Question: Did Gaddafi actually destroy all his chemical weapons like he promised?

[montypython]

Gaddafi is threatening to arm his loyal citizens and turn Libya into "a red fire"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
that link references the speech

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World- ... een_Square
there we go.
Looks like he is getting ready to start a civil war. BBC has made a big point out of the fact that the rebels have many less loyal troops than Gaddafi does...
Ah shit is all I have to say

If any intervention is to be done the Libyan UN delegation needs to be making it and the Security Council act like the days before Desert Storm.

[MKSheppard]

Question: Did Gaddafi actually destroy all his chemical weapons like he promised?

He got rid of most of his 25~ tons, but he still had about 9 tons at the start of the year awaiting disposal.

[Eframepilot]

If any intervention is to be done the Libyan UN delegation needs to be making it and the Security Council act like the days before Desert Storm.

It's just impossible. Not even the U.S. could make a military intervention in less than weeks' time, and the last thing the U.S. wants or can afford to get involved in is yet another guerrilla war in the Middle East.

[lance]

If any intervention is to be done the Libyan UN delegation needs to be making it and the Security Council act like the days before Desert Storm.

It's just impossible. Not even the U.S. could make a military intervention in less than weeks' time, and the last thing the U.S. wants or can afford to get involved in is yet another guerrilla war in the Middle East.

What would it take to enforce a no fly zone? Could an Air Craft carrier, and nearby air bases pull if off?

[MKSheppard]

The US had a plane chartered to fly out its citizens on Wednesday but they were denied permission to land. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/world ... te.html?hp

Speaking of that...

Permission? We don't need no Bloody Permission

Link

Libya: British forces rescue 150 civilians from desert
One hundred and fifty civilians have been rescued by British forces from the Libyan desert south of Benghazi.

Two RAF Hercules aircraft were involved in the operation, which involved the SAS and forces from Special Boat Service.

Both planes have landed in Malta, the Ministry of Defence confirmed, while HMS Cumberland is on her way back to Benghazi to evacuate anyone else left in the chaos-stricken country.

Britain has also evacuated its diplomatic staff and suspended the operations of the British embassy in Tripoli.

Workers departed on the last Government-chartered flight, which took off for Gatwick carrying 53 British nationals on Saturday afternoon.

Liam Fox, the defence secretary, said: "I can confirm that two RAF C130 Hercules aircraft have evacuated around 150 civilians from desert locations south of Benghazi.

"HMS Cumberland is on her way back to Benghazi to evacuate any remaining entitled persons from there.

"HMS York has arrived in Valletta to take on board stores so it can assist the evacuation effort if required. And a number of other military assets remain available to support the FCO led efforts to return civilians from Libya"

The desert rescue was reported to be extremely complex and relied on information about the likely response from Libya's air defence systems.

A Foreign Office spokeswoman said the Hercules planes were being met by a team of consular officials and Red Cross staff in Valletta, Malta.

"Once disembarked, the passengers will be given food and water and offered full consular assistance at the airport. This includes immigration processing and a medical.

"They will then be bussed to hotels, where they will stay overnight. They will return to the UK on Sunday or Monday on an FCO-chartered plane."

The departures came as Libyans prepared themselves for battles after Colonel Gaddafi said he was ready to arm civilian supporters.

Almost the entire east of the oil-rich North African nation has slipped from Gaddafi's control since the popular uprising began in the port city of Benghazi on February 15, inspired by revolutions in neighbouring Egypt and Tunisia.

Passengers who earlier flew into Gatwick from Malta spoke of the chaos gripping Libya.

Many spoke of the deteriorating safety on the streets of Tripoli, and marauding gangs ransacking and looting people of their possessions.

Construction industry worker Jong-Kuk Lee, a 56-year-old Korean who lives in Surbiton, Surrey, was greeted with hugs by his tearful wife Cecilia, 51, and daughter Joo Lee, 26.

He was attacked at knifepoint by thugs and robbed of possessions including his passport and mobile phone in his living quarters in the middle of the night.

His daughter said: "The worst night was on Monday night when it all started to kick off in Benghazi. As much as I love social media because you can keep in touch with what's going on, it also meant that I saw pictures of people shot.

"I'm glad that he's safe. I saw him in the background on the television news. He looked a bit dishevelled."

Mr Lee said: "I feel better now. I had everything stolen. They took everything from me. I didn't have my passport or mobile. It was terrible."

Paul Ellis, 51, from Milton Keynes, and his colleagues working on the Great Man-Made River Project in Libya were confronted by armed gangs.

Asked whether he was frightened at any point, he said: "Just a bit. The camp that we lived on was ransacked. Anything of any value - mobile phones, laptops - were taken.

"One of the guys had all his clothes taken as well. I was quite lucky that they didn't take mine.

"Gangs of young Libyans had knives and machetes. What they wanted was any valuables - money, laptops and mobiles. We just gave them those and the keys to cars and they just left us alone to some extent."

Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian prime minister, said Gaddafi 'no longer controls' the country.

"I have fresh news from a few minutes ago and it appears that, effectively, Gaddafi no longer controls the situation in Libya," Mr Berlusconi told a political meeting in Rome.

Mr Berlusconi, who has been relatively subdued in condemning the violence in Libya, said popular revolts in North Africa could bring democracy and freedom but also trigger the creation of "dangerous centres of Islamic fundamentalism a few kilometres from our shores" and a mass exodus of refugees.

"For this reason, Europe and the West cannot remain spectators of this process, and above all we can't do that," he said. "The events of the past few weeks affect our trade relations, our energy supplies and our own security."

David Cameron spoke to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Mr Berlusconi and Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan in the last 24 hours about Libya.

A spokesman for Mr Cameron said: "There was clear agreement that the actions of the Libyan regime were totally unacceptable and that brutality and intimidation would not be tolerated."

The escalating revolt against Gaddafi, which his deputy envoy to the United Nations said has killed thousands, emboldened tens of thousands of protesters across the Arab world to step up demands for historic reforms.

After protests in Tunisia and Egypt forced the resignations of longtime leaders Zine El Abidine Ben Ali and Hosni Mubarak, Libya's ruler of four decades appeared to dig in for a bitter fight to the end.

"We could still hear gunfire all night," one Tripoli resident said, saying that electricity had been cut overnight.

"We were terrified. We thought that meant they were preparing for attacks. We grabbed whatever we could use as weapons and stayed by the door in case anyone broke in."

In a rabble-rousing speech that presaged a bloody battle for the capital, Gaddafi told frenzied supporters in Tripoli's Green Square on Friday that the rebels would be defeated.

"We will fight them and we will beat them," he told a crowd of hundreds.

"Sing, dance and prepare yourselves," the 68-year-old leader said. "If needs be, we will open all the arsenals."

[Tribun]

No feat. We can do this as well.

Berlin - Two German military planes on Saturday left Libya with 133 foreign nationals on board, the Foreign Ministry in Berlin said without providing further details about the evacuation mission.

"I am very relieved that the evacuation succeeded," Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said. "I thank all those who were involved in the planning and execution of the event. I especially thank the members of the (armed forces) for their courageous mission."

According to information obtained by the German Press Agency dpa, the planes had flown to southern Libya from a NATO base on the Greek island of Crete and were to return there.

Among the planes' passengers are dozens of German and European Union citizens, the ministry said.

It estimates that some 100 German nationals are still currently in Libya, with about half located in the interior of the unrest-beset North African country.

[HMS Sophia]

I can't believe we actually sent in special forces... that's a little bit awesome.
Plus the Navy is finally getting a chance to actually do something... *grumble, grumble*

[Aaron]

I can't believe we actually sent in special forces... that's a little bit awesome.
Plus the Navy is finally getting a chance to actually do something... *grumble, grumble*

That bit at the front of the British passport isn't just for show.

[MKSheppard]

No feat. We can do this as well.

To be more specific:

Two C-160 Transalls of Luftlandebrigade 31. No less than 133 EU citizens were flown out from the Al-Nafoura oil field in Southeast Libya.

Aw. You guys are being more aggressive than the US. *sniff*

[Zaune]

I once again remind you that the US Air Force killed one of Gaddafi's kids. He probably doesn't care enough about the various European nations getting their people out to put a stop to it, but with you folks it's personal.

[Mr Bean]

I once again remind you that the US Air Force killed one of Gaddafi's kids. He probably doesn't care enough about the various European nations getting their people out to put a stop to it, but with you folks it's personal.

Here's an idea, we have treaties with these various people, if your so hyper worried about us doing anything to Gaddafi then ask the Germans, the Brits or even the Chinese to pull them out instead.
We got caught with our pants down in the second country in a row with an identical problem (Evacuate our people quickly) and as I said I'll bet you 50$ right now if Bahrain went into a bloody civil war tomorrow then it would take at least a week to evacuate Americans.

[MKSheppard]

I once again remind you that the US Air Force killed one of Gaddafi's kids.

I remind you again, so what?. The day that we kowtow to a mope like him is the day that we die a little inside. Besides, if he didn't want F-111s blowing his palace up, he shouldn't have blown up that Disco in Berlin. Secondly, there's strong evidence that no such daughter ever existed and was instead a propagandas invention.

[Guardsman Bass]

The UN Security Council apparently did a travel and assets sanction on Gaddafi and his inner circle. Which is nice, but wouldn't it tend to encourage him to dig in and make the end as bloody and difficult as possible?

[K. A. Pital]

The UN Security Council apparently did a travel and assets sanction on Gaddafi and his inner circle. Which is nice, but wouldn't it tend to encourage him to dig in and make the end as bloody and difficult as possible?

Libya is on the brink of civil war and frankly, Quaddafi's never shown any desire to move out of Libya even before the UNSC placed any travel sanctions.

Then again, he stays, he is killed by the rebels? That is good enough for me. Politicians should face consequences for their actions. All African and non-african rulers should face the wrath of their people and meet a miserable end - that will set a strong precedent.

The recent wave of anti-government protests must show that there will be no mercy to the autocrats. If there is, they will just fly to safe havens taking billions of laundered money with them and crippling national economies in the process. There can be no other option but the destruction of oligarchic elites.

[Dartzap]

I'm fairly sure the UK forces are retrieving anyone who happens to be around, once they find our own mob, anyway. I've certainly heard of Irish citizens being evacced on UK planes, as well as a fair chunk of Commonwealth citizens as well. I would imagine that they are picking up stray Americans, cause we're nice like that.

There has been alot of criticism about Whitehall not doing enough when this all started, and I'm wondering if the words 'Imperial bastards invade Africa' were flickering across some of the FCO minds. Apart from foreign aid, we arnt exactly swaggering around blowing stuff up over there like the French on a regular basis. (AFAIK)

Still, better late than not at all, I suppose.

[MarshalPurnell]

The UN Security Council apparently did a travel and assets sanction on Gaddafi and his inner circle. Which is nice, but wouldn't it tend to encourage him to dig in and make the end as bloody and difficult as possible?

Libya is on the brink of civil war and frankly, Quaddafi's never shown any desire to move out of Libya even before the UNSC placed any travel sanctions.

Then again, he stays, he is killed by the rebels? That is good enough for me. Politicians should face consequences for their actions. All African and non-african rulers should face the wrath of their people and meet a miserable end - that will set a strong precedent.

The recent wave of anti-government protests must show that there will be no mercy to the autocrats. If there is, they will just fly to safe havens taking billions of laundered money with them and crippling national economies in the process. There can be no other option but the destruction of oligarchic elites.

I suspect letting Gaddafi go free with his ill-gotten gains would, in the long run, be a far more preferable outcome to the situation than a bloody civil war that forces the regime to fight to the death for physical survival. Notwithstanding that violent revolution tends to leave a country in tatters and exacerbates existing ethnic and tribal divides, there's also the problem that the masses may not win if you give the "oligarchs" a choice of victory or death. Hama or Karbala is what you get when a regime decides it will hold on to power with all the means at its disposal and Qaddafi is clearly unbalanced enough to replicate them.

Qaddafi is also clearly unbalanced enough that he'll fight on anyway, but if he fled to Venezuela with a billion dollars and his buxom Ukrainian nurses the avoidance of full-on civil war would probably more than justify not getting in the way there. And it may very well be a deal worth making with more rational autocrats in the future.

[K. A. Pital]

If you let them flee, in the long run it creates lots of problems. The power structure quickly creates a semblance of collapse, and afterwards former ministers and former wealthy people gain power in the new "revolutionary" structure.

This is notable even now - Libya's former minister of something leads the "provisional government" in Benghazi. You want to make bets as to how corrupt his rule will be? Heh.

[Sea Skimmer]

Former Interior Minster; and he apparently single handily ended the battle for Benghazi by convincing the remaining government forces to leave a huge fortified compound on the south side of the city which withstood days of suicide attacks. Those forces are now at several hundred miles away at Sirt, blocking the rebel army from moving up the coastline for the moment. The revolutionary government has called for elections to be held within 90 days, so who knows what will happen. IIRC the Interior Minster is in fact a new face in the Gaddafia government and has only held his post for three years.

[Eframepilot]

Former Interior Minster; and he apparently single handily ended the battle for Benghazi by convincing the remaining government forces to leave a huge fortified compound on the south side of the city which withstood days of suicide attacks. Those forces are now at several hundred miles away at Sirt, blocking the rebel army from moving up the coastline for the moment. The revolutionary government has called for elections to be held within 90 days, so who knows what will happen. IIRC the Interior Minster is in fact a new face in the Gaddafia government and has only held his post for three years.

Also, he said that the reason he defected was that Gaddafi tried to have him assassinated in order to blame the rebels - a bullet flew into his office and badly wounded a relative. If true, that's usually not how a dictator treats a trusted lieutenant.

[Zaune]

Depends on the dictator, really.