U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

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U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Supreme_Warlord »

Glenn Greenwald wrote:On December 30 of last year, ABC News reported on a 16-year-old Pakistani boy, Tariq Khan, who was killed with his 12-year-old cousin when a car in which he was riding was hit with a missile fired by a U.S. drone. As I noted at the time, the report contained this extraordinary passage buried in the middle:

Asked for documentation of Tariq and Waheed’s deaths, Akbar did not provide pictures of the missile strike scene. Virtually none exist, since drones often target people who show up at the scene of an attack.

What made that sentence so amazing was that it basically amounts to a report that the U.S. first kills people with drones, then fires on the rescuers and others who arrive at the scene where the new corpses and injured victims lie.


In a just-released, richly documented report, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, on behalf of the Sunday Times, documents that this is exactly what the U.S. is doing — and worse:

The CIA’s drone campaign in Pakistan has killed dozens of civilians who had gone to help rescue victims or were attending funerals, an investigation by the Bureau for the Sunday Times has revealed.

The findings are published just days after President Obama claimed that the drone campaign in Pakistan was a “targeted, focused effort” that “has not caused a huge number of civilian casualties”. . . .

A three month investigation including eye witness reports has found evidence that at least 50 civilians were killed in follow-up strikes when they had gone to help victims. More than 20 civilians have also been attacked in deliberate strikes on funerals and mourners. The tactics have been condemned by leading legal experts.

Although the drone attacks were started under the Bush administration in 2004, they have been stepped up enormously under Obama.

There have been 260 attacks by unmanned Predators or Reapers in Pakistan by Obama’s administration – averaging one every four days.

As I indicated, there have been scattered, mostly buried indications in the American media that drones have been targeting and killing rescuers. As the Bureau put it: “Between May 2009 and June 2011, at least fifteen attacks on rescuers were reported by credible news media, including the New York Times, CNN,Associated Press, ABC News and Al Jazeera.” Killing civilians attending the funerals of drone victims is also well-documented by the Bureau’s new report:

Other tactics are also raising concerns. On June 23 2009 the CIA killed Khwaz Wali Mehsud, a mid-ranking Pakistan Taliban commander. They planned to use his body as bait to hook a larger fish – Baitullah Mehsud, then the notorious leader of the Pakistan Taliban.

“A plan was quickly hatched to strike Baitullah Mehsud when he attended the man’s funeral,” according to Washington Post national security correspondent Joby Warrick, in his recent book The Triple Agent. “True, the commander… happened to be very much alive as the plan took shape. But he would not be for long.”

The CIA duly killed Khwaz Wali Mehsud in a drone strike that killed at least five others. . . .

Up to 5,000 people attended Khwaz Wali Mehsud’s funeral that afternoon, including not only Taliban fighters but many civilians. US drones struck again, killing up to 83 people. As many as 45 were civilians, among them reportedly ten children and four tribal leaders.

The Bureau quotes several experts stating the obvious: that targeting rescuers and funeral attendees is patently illegal and almost certainly constitutes war crimes:

Clive Stafford-Smith, the lawyer who heads the Anglo-US legal charity Reprieve, believes that such strikes “are like attacking the Red Cross on the battlefield. It’s not legitimate to attack anyone who is not a combatant.”

Christof Heyns, a South African law professor who is United Nations Special Rapporteur on Extra- judicial Executions, agrees. “Allegations of repeat strikes coming back after half an hour when medical personnel are on the ground are very worrying”, he said. ‘To target civilians would be crimes of war.” Heyns is calling for an investigation into the Bureau’s findings.

What makes this even more striking is how conservative — almost to the point of inaccuracy — is the Bureau’s methodology and reporting. Its last news-making report, issued last July, was designed to prove (and unquestionably did prove) that top Obama counter-Terrorism adviser John Brennan lied when he said this about drone strikes in Pakistan: “in the last year, ‘there hasn’t been a single collateral death because of the exceptional proficiency, precision of the capabilities that we’ve been able to develop.” The Bureau’s July, 2011 report concluded that Brennan’s claim was patently false: “a detailed examination by the Bureau of 116 CIA ‘secret’ drone strikes in Pakistan since August 2010 has uncovered at least 10 individual attacks in which 45 or more civilians appear to have died.” As I noted at the time — and again when I interviewed Chris Woods of the Bureau — their methodology virtually guarantees significant under-counting of civilian deaths (and, indeed, their July, 2011, count was much lower than other credible reports) because they only count someone as a “civilian” when they can absolutely prove beyond any doubt that the person who died by a drone strike was one. The difficulty of reporting and obtaining verifiable information in Waziristan ensures that some civilian deaths will not be susceptible to that high level of documentary proof, and thus will go un-counted by the Bureau’s methodolgy.

The point is that the Bureau is extremely scrupulous, perhaps to a fault, in the claims it makes about civilian drone fatalities. Its findings here about deliberate targeting of rescuers and funeral attendees are supported by ample verified witness testimony, field research and public reports, all of which the Bureau has documented in full. As Woods said by email: “We have been working for months with field researchers in Waziristan to independently verify the original reports. In 12 cases we are able to confirm that rescuers and mourners were indeed attacked.”

As the report notes, it’s particularly remarkable that these findings come on the heels of President Obama’s recent boasting about the efficacy of drones and his specific claim that the policy has “not caused a huge number of civilian casualties”, adding that it was “important for everybody to understand that this thing is kept on a very tight leash.” Compare that claim to the Bureau’s almost certainly under-stated conclusion that it has “found that since Obama took office three years ago, between 282 and 535 civilians have been credibly reported as killed including more than 60 children.” And targeting rescuers and funeral attendees of your victims is quite the opposite of keeping the drone program on a “very tight leash.” As Samiullah Khan, one of the Bureau’s field researchers put it:

In a war situation no one is allowed to attack the Red Cross. Rescuers are like that. You are not allowed to attack rescuers. You know, the number of Taliban is increasing in Waziristan day by day, because innocents and rescuers are being killed day by day.

Strictly speaking, the legality of attacking rescuers may be ambiguous because, as the Bureau put it: “It is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions to attack rescuers wearing emblems of the Red Cross or Red Crescent. But what if rescuers wear no emblems, or if civilians are mixed in with militants, as the Bureau’s investigation into drone attacks in Waziristan has repeatedly found?” But there’s nothing ambiguous about the morality of that, or of attacking funerals (recall the worst part of the Baghdad attack video released by WikiLeaks: that the Apache helicopter first fired on the group containing Reuters journalists, then fired again on the people who arrived to help wounded). Whatever else is true, it seems highly likely that Barack Obama is the first Nobel Peace laureate who, after receiving his award, presided over the deliberate targeting of rescuers and funeral mourners of his victims.
Regarding the bolded parts, unfortunately as long as might makes right, this sort of shameless behaviour will continue to prevail.

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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

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Glenn Greenwald wrote:Whatever else is true, it seems highly likely that Barack Obama is the first Nobel Peace laureate who, after receiving his award, presided over the deliberate targeting of rescuers and funeral mourners of his victims.
*sigh*

Somebody should really make him give that back.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Zaune »

In a war situation no one is allowed to attack the Red Cross. Rescuers are like that. You are not allowed to attack rescuers.
That raises an important question, actually. Does the policy of "follow-up strikes" only apply to people the drone operators have reason to believe are the target's bodyguards or staff rather than mere bystanders, which is kind of a dick move but probably barely within the bounds of what might be justifiable, or have the US military knowingly fired on noncombatants? And further to that, have those noncombatants included uniformed emergency service personnel?
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by madd0ct0r »

They've knowingly set the definition so that unless they're 100% sure you're a civilian, you're not and therefore a legitimate target.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by K. A. Pital »

madd0ct0r wrote:They've knowingly set the definition so that unless they're 100% sure you're a civilian, you're not and therefore a legitimate target.
+1. The entire U.S. military doublespeak is revolving around that issue. Once you set the definition in such a fashion, since there are no ground operations to confirm or deny whether it was clear or not that these were civilians, the people are at the mercy of the drone operators.

What they do, whom they target, and how they do it is entirely their own discretion (well that and also those who set the targets are absolutely unaccountable, ha-ha).

Welcome to a new world where the answer to the question whether you're a target or not lies firmly in the eyes of a far-away beholder.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by MKSheppard »

Clearly, this is a function of insufficiently lethal primary strikes, requiring secondary or even tertiary strikes to service the target completely and eliminate squirters.

Conclusion: More lethal drone-carried weapons are required.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Thanas »

It is what is to be expected of Obama at this point.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Stark »

How are better weapons supposed to kill people who aren't even there yet?

Oh right: tough guy posturing. Reading the micro drone thread is an exercise in mental blinkers, so this shouldn't be too surprising.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by mr friendly guy »

Asking Obama to give back the Nobel peace prize implies that its actually worth something. The Prize was given to people like Kissinger, Arafat, Gore and Obama. It may have meant something once upon a time, but it doesn't mean shit now. These are just the ones considered controversial. There are a few others I am dubious of, but they most probably are NOT controversial enough in the West to even be discussed.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

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MKSheppard wrote:I wanna kill more brown people and civilians
The point of the thread flew right over your head, no?
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

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MKSheppard wrote:Clearly, this is a function of insufficiently lethal primary strikes, requiring secondary or even tertiary strikes to service the target completely and eliminate squirters.

Conclusion: More lethal drone-carried weapons are required.
"Squirters?"

That's a funny term for mourners and rescue workers. I don't object to the use of Drones to eliminate known terrorists, but the way this campaign is being conducted is simply atrocious. If drones are to be used at all, there need to be assets on the ground to confirm targets and make sure there aren't too many civilians present. Simply blowing the shit out of anything that moves and has brown skin is not acceptable.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by K. A. Pital »

MKSheppard wrote:Clearly, this is a function of insufficiently lethal primary strikes, requiring secondary or even tertiary strikes to service the target completely and eliminate squirters.
You mean drones should drop nukes or MOABs all the time, killing most civilians in the area (possibly with city- and village-wide extermination)? :luv: Because that's the only case when more powerful primary strikes would simply amount to uninterrupted genocide and render the question of civilian-combatant distinction redundant.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Grumman »

Why am I not surprised?

Oh, right: because a helicopter did it to the people trying to rescue the reporters they'd shot up, and Obama's response was to throw the Espionage Act at the guy who brought it to the public's attention.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by MKSheppard »

Stas Bush wrote:You mean drones should drop nukes or MOABs all the time, killing most civilians in the area (possibly with city- and village-wide extermination)?
Current weapons being used, such as Hellfire, were originally designed to you know, kill tanks and other armored vehicles; and as such, have designs rather suboptimal for destroying unarmored vehicles or targets in the open.

There have been attempts to design drone specific weaponry, but most of them are repurposing of existing weapons, like Viper Strike, which is IIRC a stock 81mm Mortar Shell with a GPS guidance tailkit.

The big thing holding back advanced minaturized weaponry is cost; as these advanced technologies cost 30-40% more than their conventional counterparts; an issue when you buy 10,000+ of them at a time...
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by K. A. Pital »

So you actually meant more precise weapons. Not more lethal. Since precision decreases lethality.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by MKSheppard »

Thanas wrote:The point of the thread flew right over your head, no?
No, I got the point of the thread.

It was more of the same "US drones are evil killfuckery machines that kill Johnny Abu-Al-Shroomalki, who pets ponies in his spare time and has five kids at home to feed." that we've been seeing ever since the drone war started.

Nevermind that drones are a huge advance over previous weapons systems, which were non recallable or non-retargetable inflight, allowing much less overall civilian casualties than just blindly firing missiles over distances of several thousand miles with time deltas measured in hours.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

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Hey Shep, here is a new thought - if you cannot reliably identify the target and hit it without causing numerous civilian casualties, maybe you should not hit it then?
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Baffalo »

I was looking up the AGM-114 Hellfire missile for some idea of the specs when I saw this:
From 2001 to 2007, the U.S. military fired over 6,000 Hellfires in combat. It has found the missile effective in urban areas, as the relatively small warhead reduces the risk of civilian casualties.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

The only way this makes sense is if the US policy in this regard was specifically designed to maximize recruiting and mobilization of terrorists to keep the perpetual war well-stocked with the Enemy. In other words our government is Fucking Evil and needs total replacement.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

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Thanas wrote:Hey Shep, here is a new thought - if you cannot reliably identify the target and hit it without causing numerous civilian casualties, maybe you should not hit it then?
To quote Paul Tibbets: "That's their tough luck for being there"
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Aaron MkII »

MKSheppard wrote:
Thanas wrote:The point of the thread flew right over your head, no?
No, I got the point of the thread.

It was more of the same "US drones are evil killfuckery machines that kill Johnny Abu-Al-Shroomalki, who pets ponies in his spare time and has five kids at home to feed." that we've been seeing ever since the drone war started.

Nevermind that drones are a huge advance over previous weapons systems, which were non recallable or non-retargetable inflight, allowing much less overall civilian casualties than just blindly firing missiles over distances of several thousand miles with time deltas measured in hours.
No you don't, the point is that deliberatly targeting civvies is a war crime. I long for the day when someone has the power to bring guys like Obama up on charges.

Einy, its just that your government doesn't know how to interact without force. Mind you if you look at the US as a failing empire, desperate to maintain relevance, every thing makes sense.
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Post by Aaron MkII »

Julhelm wrote:
Thanas wrote:Hey Shep, here is a new thought - if you cannot reliably identify the target and hit it without causing numerous civilian casualties, maybe you should not hit it then?
To quote Paul Tibbets: "That's their tough luck for being there"
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Alkaloid »

I can't help but think the US is less interested in fighting a war and more interested in performing a case study called 'How not to run a counterinsurgency campaign,' because even if only looked at from a practical standpoint, ignoring the ethics of the thing, this is all wrong.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

Post by Julhelm »

You just fail to realise that while in the 80's and 90's the US could afford to be restrictive about killing terrorists if civilian casualities were possible, post 9/11 that just isn't the case anymore. There simply is no way that the US is not going to preemptively kill these threats if the alternative is risking new attacks on american soil. So unfortunately what Col Tibbets said is just the way it is. And it won't get better anytime soon, either. Regardless if you or I don't like it, it's what reality looks like and to the average american the average american is worth a hundred times more than random brown person in farawaystan.
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Re: U.S. drones targeting rescuers and mourners

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Julhelm wrote:You just fail to realise that while in the 80's and 90's the US could afford to be restrictive about killing terrorists if civilian casualities were possible, post 9/11 that just isn't the case anymore.
What makes 9/11 so freaking special that suddenly the laws of war do not apply anymore to any military action taken over a decade after 9/11?
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