Nikolas Cruz 'remorseful' as police report claims he confessed to Florida school shooting massacre

[MKSheppard]

So what happens when an armed teacher accidentally blows away an innocent student in the crossfire? Who is liable? The teacher? The district?

The spree killer. This is what the felony murder statute was invented for.

[The Romulan Republic]

And of course now Alt. Reich fucks are saying that the student protesters are paid Deep State actors.

As to arming teachers: now, maybe I'm paranoid, but I can see right where this is going. First it'll be "Let's arm teachers." Then it'll be "You have to be a trained gunman to be a teacher." Then it'll be ex-cops and soldiers being favored for teaching positions.

Sure, there are probably lots of well-intentioned idiots latching onto the idea because they think it'll help, but if Trump has put any thought into it at all, that's why he's backing this proposal (that or just sucking the cocks of his donors in the NRA). Remember, everything he does is geared ultimately towards either gratifying his ego, or expanding his own wealth and power. And one of the first things any would-be despot wants to do is get their claws into the school system. So I think that maybe Trump is seeing an opportunity here to try to take the first steps towards making school staff an extension of the (often pro-Trump) law enforcement and armed forces.

[Napoleon the Clown]

So what happens when an armed teacher accidentally blows away an innocent student in the crossfire? Who is liable? The teacher? The district?

The spree killer. This is what the felony murder statute was invented for.

Not "who faces murder charges" but "Who is legally liable for expenses associated with death or injury to an innocent third party shot by the person that was supposed to be protecting them."

Here's the thing with shooting in tense, emotional situations: Your aim goes to shit. Most CCL holders don't have anywhere close to the sort of training or experience to shoot with any accuracy when their (or other peoples') lives depend on it. More guns means more bullets, which means more chance at increasing casualties. Bullets don't magically vanish after hitting a wall.

Toss in that this just means the shooter will go for the teacher first, and you're not really making any progress.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah. The logical extension of "The solution is arming teachers" (if you put any thought into it at all) is "Teachers require training comparable to police or soldiers." Which I'm worried is exactly what the Alt. Reich is angling for- the militarization of the school system.

[MKSheppard]

Here's the thing with shooting in tense, emotional situations: Your aim goes to shit. Most CCL holders don't have anywhere close to the sort of training or experience to shoot with any accuracy when their (or other peoples') lives depend on it.

Neither do cops.

Cops in NYC fire 84 times, miss 83 times

So your argument is pretty shit anyway; in that you demand an unrealistic DELTA FORCE, SOPMOD, SQUEAL TEAM SIX level of perfection.

[Zaune]

Well, it's official: Trump says he "will consider" a proposal to issue firearms to teachers.

If this actually gets signed into law I'm petitioning the moderators of TV Tropes to lift their real-life examples ban on the page for "Jumped the Shark".

[Zixinus]

All solutions involve increasing security in the school. Whether you hire professional security, have cops present or the damn teachers, it all means saying "aye" to the decision to increase active security in schools. When most schools struggle to meet their basic needs.

A lesser alternative? Panic alarms for the teachers or at least the principal. Specifically for this kind of stuff. An increase in response time might save lives. Maybe panic alarms for the doors, but then again, most locks could be just shot.

Either way is accepting that school shootings is somehow a routine matter.

[Broomstick]

Well, it's official: Trump says he "will consider" a proposal to issue firearms to teachers.

Fucker ignored every other suggestion made. It was what he was looking for from the first. It was all a sham. Fuck fuck fuck...

[houser2112]

An increase in response time might save lives.

I think a decrease would be better.

[Lonestar]

"Teachers require training comparable to police or soldiers."

Soooo...not very much training?

[TheFeniX]

"Throw more guns at it." Let's just say, for the moment, the idea of modifying and expanding background checks and how the mental health care system relates is a big part of this. Trump did say that, so let's just try and not laugh and think for the moment he would make good on that. Those later two things cost money. A lot of money, spent continuously. Hundreds of millions easily. Obama couldn't make a dent here.

Saying "teachers can Conceal Carry on school grounds now" costs nothing outside the original ink. So, when the next round of Republican pushed budget cuts come around and the NRA is a-hollerin': what's the first to go? After the fervor of this latest shooting dies down and the victims are forgotten and people might have to wait around a few more minutes for the checks to go through when buying another gun, what happens?

End result: we won't do our job to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them nor help identify potentially violent offenders. And the laws already on the books would actually have stopped more than a couple of these shootings if they were funded and enforced.

Instead, you should just buy a gun and handle it yourself. I mean.. it's just fucking hilarious when he says "Cops are 8 minutes away on average" and we don't even consider analyizing what it would take to get that time lower or how to make it not an issue rather than saying "more guns."

U.S. Republicans (and honestly more than a few Democrats). Really, American politics in general is "low bid." Doesn't matter if the guy they hired to fill in the pot-holes is using cow shit: "low bid."

So, when you're a bunch of overpaid, but notoriously cheap fuckers when it comes to anything besides bombing brown people or warrantless surveillance of citizens: it makes perfect sense to pass a zero-cost measure where all the responsibility for failure is passed onto the average citizen. How is anyone surprised by this? U.S. politicians do this as a matter of course.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Here's the thing with shooting in tense, emotional situations: Your aim goes to shit. Most CCL holders don't have anywhere close to the sort of training or experience to shoot with any accuracy when their (or other peoples') lives depend on it.

Neither do cops.

Cops in NYC fire 84 times, miss 83 times

So your argument is pretty shit anyway; in that you demand an unrealistic DELTA FORCE, SOPMOD, SQUEAL TEAM SIX level of perfection.

When have I ever said I consider the police to be adequately trained, at present? Because I'm pretty sure I've expressed that their training is horribly inconsistent and needs to be at a higher standard nationwide.

Arming teachers won't accomplish anything helpful. It is extraordinarily rare for a God Guy With A Gun™ to stop a Bad Guy With A Gun™. It'll add panic, it'll add confusion. People who have actually seen combat think it would be utterly useless at best. Adding more bullets to the air when there are already bullets in the air means more chance at bullets hitting people the Good Guys™ don't want to see getting bulleted.

[Tribble]

So, one of the survivors is apparently receiving death threats:

The family of one of the survivors of the South Florida school shooting, who has been accused of being a “crisis actor” by conspiracy theorists, is now receiving death threats, according to the student’s mom.
“I’m under so much stress,” Rebecca Boldrick, the mother of 17-year-old David Hogg, a senior at Parkland’s Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, told the Washington Post.
Boldrick told the news outlet that her family has received death threats online.
“I’m angry and exhausted,” added Boldrick, an elementary school teacher.
“Angry, exhausted,” she reiterated. “And extremely proud” of her son.
In the wake of the Feb. 14 shooting rampage that left 17 dead, Hogg became one of the leading student voices advocating for gun reform via social media and during many TV interviews.
He was then one of two teen students to be targeted by fringe right-wing sites — as well as an aide to a Florida lawmaker — as being an actor.
Even first son Donald Trump Jr. “liked” a pair of tweets that attacked Hogg, including one that linked to a story suggesting he was fabricated by the “mainstream media.”
After Hogg had mentioned in an interview that his father was a retired FBI agent, some online conspiracy theorists drummed up the idea that he was in cahoots with the FBI to criticize President Trump.
Responding to the wild claims, Hogg bluntly told CNN: “I am not a crisis actor. I’m somebody that had to witness this and live through this and I continue to have to do that.”
The mother told the news outlet that her husband, Kevin Hogg, a Republican, worked for the FBI as an agent at airports in Los Angeles and Florida before retiring from the bureau in October 2016.
She said her husband left the FBI because he had been diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson’s disease several years earlier and noted that her family has not previously revealed the reason for his retirement because he was embarrassed, according to the Washington Post.

https://nypost.com/2018/02/22/mom-of-su ... h-threats/

'Murica.

[Wicked Pilot]

I'm sure from the gun advocates' perspective the solution is to arm all the staff.

There was an armed officer on campus during the shooting. He chickened out and didn't engage. The fact of the matter is that most of us would have done the same, or would have been ineffective even if we did.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... l-shooting

[Wicked Pilot]

Airplane tries to hijack itself, armed captain shows it who's boss. Didn't realize disconnecting the autopilot would have done the trick too...

[The Romulan Republic]

All solutions involve increasing security in the school. Whether you hire professional security, have cops present or the damn teachers, it all means saying "aye" to the decision to increase active security in schools. When most schools struggle to meet their basic needs.

A lesser alternative? Panic alarms for the teachers or at least the principal. Specifically for this kind of stuff. An increase in response time might save lives. Maybe panic alarms for the doors, but then again, most locks could be just shot.

Either way is accepting that school shootings is somehow a routine matter.

Because obvious a solution that involves actually reducing the number of shootings is an impossible fantasy.

Well, I guess it probably is as long as Republicans hold Congress. The only "solutions" we're getting from them involve authoritarianism to give the illusion of "security". Just like after 9/11.

[Lonestar]

It really fucking bothers me that that Sheriff's department sat on the information that the Parkland shooter had been a repeat customer, and that the deputy hanged out outside of the school while the shooting was going on until after the Townhall.

It also bothers me that some individuals are waving this off as "understandable", or "this is just the Trump Administration trying to shift blame". Some of these individuals are the same types that post shit on Facebook about how cops are untrustworthy, shouldn't be taken at face value, etc. While I haven't been shot at, I have been second in line of a hose getting ready to go into a main space during a fire, and I have had a loaded AK pointed in my face while the only thing I had was a camera, and I still did my fucking job.

[Zaune]

It really fucking bothers me that that Sheriff's department sat on the information that the Parkland shooter had been a repeat customer, and that the deputy hanged out outside of the school while the shooting was going on until after the Townhall.

It also bothers me that some individuals are waving this off as "understandable", or "this is just the Trump Administration trying to shift blame". Some of these individuals are the same types that post shit on Facebook about how cops are untrustworthy, shouldn't be taken at face value, etc. While I haven't been shot at, I have been second in line of a hose getting ready to go into a main space during a fire, and I have had a loaded AK pointed in my face while the only thing I had was a camera, and I still did my fucking job.

Obviously we don't know all the circumstances yet, but it's quite possible the deputy in question did their job by getting everyone who'd made it out of the building behind secure cover and calling for backup rather than charging in trying to play hero. Even in Florida I doubt a School Resource Officer has immediate access to a rifle of their own or body armour that can stand up to 5.56mm NATO -at best it'd be in the trunk of their vehicle- and for all they knew there could be three or four shooters in there all wearing Level III vests of their own.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe so. But at the same time, if he had gone in, there's a chance that more children would be alive.

But really, law enforcement failed horribly here, at all levels (including both the FBI and local law enforcement).

Edit: I also can't help but wonder what would have happened if this shooter had been black. I wonder weather he would have even survived that many visits from the cops, never mind been able to buy a gun.

[TheFeniX]

Well, I guess it probably is as long as Republicans hold Congress. The only "solutions" we're getting from them involve authoritarianism to give the illusion of "security". Just like after 9/11.

I wouldn't hold my breath. If memory serves, not soon after Obama got elected (and Democrats control the majority of the legislature) he tried pushing for some expansion of background checks and another push at an Assault Weapons ban. Congress basically told him "no one cares about guns, fix the economy."

Then they just sat on it. And we can (and should) blame obstructionist GOPers for some of this, but Obama was able to push the ACA and Immigration reform past it, so what stopped him on gun control? I'm inclined to say Democrats don't give enough shits to die on their sword for it.

Besides, "let private citizens handle crime themselves" isn't exactly authoritarianism. For the "just like after 9/11" analogy to hold, the response back then would have had to be "let airline passengers with CHLs carry on the plane."

It really fucking bothers me that that Sheriff's department sat on the information that the Parkland shooter had been a repeat customer, and that the deputy hanged out outside of the school while the shooting was going on until after the Townhall.

Could be mostly "CYA" for the former, but for the later since it was either summary or expedited dismissal of the officer, they couldn't or wouldn't hide behind "the investigation of the officers actions is ongoing." Could have taken them that long just to know he was worth shitcanning.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, the Democrats failed on this issue before. But at the same time, today's Democratic Party is not the Democratic Party of a decade ago. It just isn't.

Hell, Hillary Clinton (who is nobody's idea of a radical reformer) made somewhat successful political capital out of Bernie Sanders not being anti-gun enough for the current Democratic Party in the primaries.

As to Obama- yeah, he got the ACA passed- and pretty much expended a huge amount of political capital to do so, to the point that his party lost Congress in the backlash and gave the Republicans a position of power in Congress which they have never really lost since, and from which the country still hasn't recovered. I think he could have pushed through sweeping gun control (maybe- there wasn't as much support for it then as now) or the ACA, maybe, but not both. And frankly, he made the right call there, because the ACA would almost certainly save more lives in the long run than gun control will.

[Lonestar]

Obviously we don't know all the circumstances yet, but it's quite possible the deputy in question did their job by getting everyone who'd made it out of the building behind secure cover and calling for backup rather than charging in trying to play hero.

No, he fucking didn't do his job.

Standard practice since Columbine has been to respond immediately.

Even in Florida I doubt a School Resource Officer has immediate access to a rifle of their own or body armour that can stand up to 5.56mm NATO -at best it'd be in the trunk of their vehicle-

It's why AR-15s have proliferated in every squad car(at least here in VA!), so that the first responding officer can go in.


Fuck, there have been instances of school shootings stopped by STAFF running out to their cars, getting a handgun out of their glove compartment, and running back to confront the shooter.

Deputy Friendly, if he had his cruiser in the parking lot, didn't even run out to grab his patrol rifle and armor. In fact, if you read a lot of the articles it wasn't like he was outside when the shooting happened, he was in the school office and then ran outside.

nd for all they knew there could be three or four shooters in there all wearing Level III vests of their own.

Name five times in the US that this has happened in any context other than "robbing a bank".

School shootings are basically gangland or white dude(sometimes Asian) decides to make a name for himself. He was a Deputy who, if he had had even a little bit of training, should have been aware of the odds that it as one white guy doing this. Instead he sat outside jerking off and re-enacting the Columbine response.

Actually, it's worse than that, some articles, once you read the beyond the headlines, report that he was IN THE SCHOOL and then ran away.

[Lonestar]

Edit: I also can't help but wonder what would have happened if this shooter had been black. I wonder weather he would have even survived that many visits from the cops, never mind been able to buy a gun.

I've observed that, very frequently, when a hard target is picked for murder and mayhem it's usually a POC that does it. In fact I'm having a hard time thinking of the last time a white dude decided that instead of shooting up a school he was going to snipe at police officers at a rally, or attack the Washington Navy Yard.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm honestly not sure what your point is, or what that has to do with my point, which is that law enforcement tends to give white guys way more benefit of the doubt and second chances than black guys.

[MKSheppard]

It really fucking bothers me that that Sheriff's department sat on the information that the Parkland shooter had been a repeat customer, and that the deputy hanged out outside of the school while the shooting was going on until after the Townhall.

Worse than that.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics ... index.html

(CNN)When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building where the shooter was. New Broward County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Florida, joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building.

Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. It's unclear whether the shooter was still in the building when they arrived.

What these Coral Springs officers observed -- though not their feelings about it -- will be released in a report, likely next week. Sources cautioned that tapes are currently being reviewed and official accounts could ultimately differ from recollections of officers on the scene.

The resentment among Coral Springs officials toward Broward County officials about what they perceived to be a dereliction of duty may have reached a boiling point at a vigil the night of February 15, where, in front of dozens of others, Coral Springs City Manager Mike Goodrum confronted Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel. A source familiar with the conversation tells CNN that Goodrum was upset that the Broward deputies had remained outside the school while kids inside could have been bleeding out, among other reasons.