Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by FSTargetDrone »

Kanastrous wrote:The trouble with the 'if lives are in danger' part is that it presupposes that in any given case the FD will have total certitude - totally accurate certitude - not only that no un-noticed or unaccounted-for person is still endangered *and* that the spread of the fire will not happen in such as way as to endanger people who would not have been endangered had the fire been brought under control ASAP. There's no angle from which permitting a house fire to burn without intervention is a smart one (fires set for training purposes under controlled conditions being the obvious exception).
This cannot be stressed highly enough. Letting these kinds of fires burn, for any reason (especially when they can be contained by people who have already shown up) is stupefyingly insane. Everyone else on the block can be paid up, but all it takes is for some flying embers carried by the winds and suddenly Unpaid Fire Victim's fire has spread. Fire doesn't respect property boundaries.

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As for this being a rural location, who's to say that an unanswered call doesn't start off a field or forest fire that suddenly becomes a Really Big Problem, all because of a boneheaded and short-sighted policy?
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by JCady »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:The trouble with the 'if lives are in danger' part is that it presupposes that in any given case the FD will have total certitude - totally accurate certitude - not only that no un-noticed or unaccounted-for person is still endangered *and* that the spread of the fire will not happen in such as way as to endanger people who would not have been endangered had the fire been brought under control ASAP. There's no angle from which permitting a house fire to burn without intervention is a smart one (fires set for training purposes under controlled conditions being the obvious exception).
This cannot be stressed highly enough. Letting these kinds of fires burn, for any reason (especially when they can be contained by people who have already shown up) is stupefyingly insane. Everyone else on the block can be paid up, but all it takes is for some flying embers carried by the winds and suddenly Unpaid Fire Victim's fire has spread. Fire doesn't respect property boundaries.
It is even more stupefyingly insane for a fire department to be obligated to provide free service outside its area of responsibility at the expense of the people in the area of responsibility who actually pay for it.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Anguirus »

^ No, it isn't.

I'm not saying that it's not wrong for the homeowner to expect free service from a fire station that his tax dollars don't fund... but it's not more wrong than that fire station doing nothing when the ability to minimize harm was clearly in their power. That's the bitch of it. Certainly not more wrong than driving out there and intentionally not acting in a way that would minimize damage.

The fact of the matter is that this system has been exposed as unacceptable on its face to anyone who read the news article, which may help spur the development of a more acceptable system. Such as a government-funded Obion rural fire station.

Of course, if they had "worked for free" they could have done a more successful job saving the property of the neighbor who did pay them, then turned it into a PR victory against freeloading parasites. By showing up and standing there they give a rather sociopathic impression, even when all the facts are explained.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by General Zod »

JCady wrote:
FSTargetDrone wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:The trouble with the 'if lives are in danger' part is that it presupposes that in any given case the FD will have total certitude - totally accurate certitude - not only that no un-noticed or unaccounted-for person is still endangered *and* that the spread of the fire will not happen in such as way as to endanger people who would not have been endangered had the fire been brought under control ASAP. There's no angle from which permitting a house fire to burn without intervention is a smart one (fires set for training purposes under controlled conditions being the obvious exception).
This cannot be stressed highly enough. Letting these kinds of fires burn, for any reason (especially when they can be contained by people who have already shown up) is stupefyingly insane. Everyone else on the block can be paid up, but all it takes is for some flying embers carried by the winds and suddenly Unpaid Fire Victim's fire has spread. Fire doesn't respect property boundaries.
It is even more stupefyingly insane for a fire department to be obligated to provide free service outside its area of responsibility at the expense of the people in the area of responsibility who actually pay for it.
Except fire departments already do this when large scale fires break out.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Kanastrous »

I think that what JCady may be missing is that fires - once started - are notoriously indiscriminate when it comes to what arbitrary boundaries they cross and whose property and/or area of designated responsibility they burn.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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It is even more stupefyingly insane for a fire department to be obligated to provide free service outside its area of responsibility at the expense of the people in the area of responsibility who actually pay for it.
Bullshit. Fire departments are not profit making enterprises, or they damn well shouldn't be. The same applies to things like police, healthcare and ambulance service.

I know a fair number of fire fighters through my local diving club; they are routinely expected to respond to fires and accidents outside of the local area, even outside of Swale (the borough I live in). Now, granted, the English system isn't the same as the US one (in fact, the US one sounds astoundingly shit, and I'm even more glad I don't live over there), but even so, I'm of the opinion that the idea of fire fighters responding only to emergencies inside their own geographic area is insane.

Tax the people in Obion county, and use the money to fund the fire service. If the way local government is organised prevents this, then that's a pretty big clue that you're doing it wrong. When your local government can't actually provide the services that local government is supposed to, then you need a new system.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Kanastrous »

Psychic_Sandwich wrote: I'm of the opinion that the idea of fire fighters responding only to emergencies inside their own geographic area is insane.
That's the majority opinion in the United States, too. In the west it's routine for firefighting teams to travel across state lines (not to mention county lines) to provide support in fighting large fires.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by General Zod »

Kanastrous wrote:
Psychic_Sandwich wrote: I'm of the opinion that the idea of fire fighters responding only to emergencies inside their own geographic area is insane.
That's the majority opinion in the United States, too. In the west it's routine for firefighting teams to travel across state lines (not to mention county lines) to provide support in fighting large fires.
A recent blaze in Boulder had 800 firefighters from 20 different states. Refusing to provide firefighting service unless you pay some sort of fee is clearly the exception. Not the norm.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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The problem is that the municipal districts in the county here that respond to all calls and then charge the calller for the incident are all broke, and under US law it's illegal for the fire department to demand payment up front, which would be the best solution to this, i.e., "Okay, swipe your credit card on the card reader in the supervisor's truck and we'll get started. It'll be a thousand dollars." While I think that this situation is horrifyingly retarded, the simple fact is that if you lived in one of those municipalities, you would be subsidizing some rich asshole in the country who refuses to pay his bills and the fire department has no way of collecting them unless the subscription model was used. The only options are to either force the country to fund a real fire service (it's not hard, you use volunteer firefighters, there were two such depots in the middle of nowhere within five miles of my house growing up!) or to change the law to let the municipal fire departments demand up-front payment.

Forcing the cities to pay out a couple more million a year in taxes to support rich assholes in the rural areas of the county is one of the more retarded things I've ever heard. Yes, government services are good, but people should be universally forced to pay for them in accordance with their ability to pay. The demands in this thread are that generally poorer urban dwellers use their tax money to provide free services to rich people who own a couple hundred acres of farmland.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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I may have missed this in the story; do we have reportage indicating that the guy whose property burned is 'rich?'

I guess we can probably agree on stipulating that he's kind of obviously an asshole...
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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Kanastrous wrote:I may have missed this in the story; do we have reportage indicating that the guy whose property burned is 'rich?'

I guess we can probably agree on stipulating that he's kind of obviously an asshole...
According to an updated article, he forgot to pay it.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Wait a minute? They lost all their possessions along with their pets? Basically the fire fighters are now accessory to animal murder.

Also the mayor is an asshole "People would only pay on the spot when theirs a fire". Then charge somewhere around 5000-7500, that basically covers 50-100 years of living.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Zaune »

Further to Psychic_Sandwich's comments, it's worth noting that whilst we do officially have county and municipal fire brigades, their command structure and I think their funding (pay is certainly standard across the country) are centralised at what in the US would be state level. A quick look at Wikipedia also suggests that Oblon County's system would be illegal under UK law; if they couldn't or didn't want to deploy an effective fire service of their own they'd be obliged to amalgamate with other local areas and pool their resources.

And I can't help but contrast this incident with the last time our fire brigades came out on strike, a strike that ultimately proved to be a paper tiger because they would invariably cross the picket line en masse and turn out for anything that resembled a genuine emergency call.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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Alphawolf55 wrote:Wait a minute? They lost all their possessions along with their pets? Basically the fire fighters are now accessory to animal murder.
I don't think there's such a crime as 'animal murder.'

At least, I haven't succeeded in finding it on anyone's books...
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Alphawolf55 »

True, but it still makes them assholes.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The problem is that the municipal districts in the county here that respond to all calls and then charge the calller for the incident are all broke, and under US law it's illegal for the fire department to demand payment up front, which would be the best solution to this, i.e., "Okay, swipe your credit card on the card reader in the supervisor's truck and we'll get started. It'll be a thousand dollars." While I think that this situation is horrifyingly retarded, the simple fact is that if you lived in one of those municipalities, you would be subsidizing some rich asshole in the country who refuses to pay his bills and the fire department has no way of collecting them unless the subscription model was used. The only options are to either force the country to fund a real fire service (it's not hard, you use volunteer firefighters, there were two such depots in the middle of nowhere within five miles of my house growing up!) or to change the law to let the municipal fire departments demand up-front payment.

Forcing the cities to pay out a couple more million a year in taxes to support rich assholes in the rural areas of the county is one of the more retarded things I've ever heard. Yes, government services are good, but people should be universally forced to pay for them in accordance with their ability to pay. The demands in this thread are that generally poorer urban dwellers use their tax money to provide free services to rich people who own a couple hundred acres of farmland.
I don't know where you grew up, but in the South most people living in the country are decidedly not rich. This guy might be an exception, but there are a lot of people who are land-rich and money-poor. That's one reason many counties and states have homestead deduction or exemptions on property taxes, so that families can keep land they've had for decades or generations without going broke from taxes.

I'd also like to point out that for quite a lot of people, seventy-five dollars is a not a tiny amount of money to pay all at once. When you're living month to month, a $75 fee can mean a bill doesn't get paid, or a prescription doesn't get filled, or there is nothing extra to pay for an emergency. For poor hicks out in the county it might seem rational to take the gamble, since odds are your house isn't going to burn down.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Kanastrous »

Well...part of gambling is supposed to be whinge-free dealing with what happens when you lose. This guy doesn't seem to be handling this like a responsible person who gambled and lost; he sure seems to feel that he was entitled to that same coverage as everybody else even though he did not pay.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Johonebesus wrote:
I don't know where you grew up, but in the South most people living in the country are decidedly not rich. This guy might be an exception, but there are a lot of people who are land-rich and money-poor. That's one reason many counties and states have homestead deduction or exemptions on property taxes, so that families can keep land they've had for decades or generations without going broke from taxes.

I'd also like to point out that for quite a lot of people, seventy-five dollars is a not a tiny amount of money to pay all at once. When you're living month to month, a $75 fee can mean a bill doesn't get paid, or a prescription doesn't get filled, or there is nothing extra to pay for an emergency. For poor hicks out in the county it might seem rational to take the gamble, since odds are your house isn't going to burn down.
It's $75.00 a year, not a month... That means you have to save about six bucks a month to make the payment. It's true that I suppose the area could be highly impoverished. However, at least where I grew up in a rural area there was a higher proportion of well-to-do people than there were of poor people living in trailers. The people who lived to our east were well enough, then, to our east two houses down, dirt poor trailer trash; there was us, firmly upper middle class, to the north some people who were outright rich, then two more upper middle class houses as you turned and drove up to the main road, some kind of commune off to the left at that point... You get the idea, and that was at the end of a five mile long dead end. Very sharp class divide; you were either well to do and had 10 - 25 acres and a big house or dirt poor and had 2.5 - 5 acres and a trailer on it. Still, in general, there were a lot more very upper middle class types as a ratio of the total population in the rural area I grew up in, than there were in the city itself that was eight miles away (and had a population of 4,000 when we first lived there).

The one time I resided briefly in the south in Georgia there was the same sort of mix, in my impression, of well-to-do professional families wanting to get out of the city and then the old time residents were dirt poor and little different from subsistence farmers, so I didn't see much difference. I was generously assuming these people actually farmed on more than a limited show/boutique level like the region I grew up in did (though it was hilly enough to have an excuse). The obvious answer would be to apply a local income tax on the rich families to provide basic emergency services for the entire county, but of course it's the south so god forbid that happen.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Losonti Tokash »

The concept that emergency services personnel don't have a duty to act is absurd. Admittedly I am less familiar with laws regarding firefighters, but even if I'm off-duty and pass (for example) a car accident without stopping to render aid, I can go to jail and lose my ability to practice, along with being fined and opening myself up to lawsuits. The firefighters who just sat there are complete fuckfaces.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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Losonti Tokash wrote:The concept that emergency services personnel don't have a duty to act is absurd. Admittedly I am less familiar with laws regarding firefighters, but even if I'm off-duty and pass (for example) a car accident without stopping to render aid, I can go to jail and lose my ability to practice, along with being fined and opening myself up to lawsuits. The firefighters who just sat there are complete fuckfaces.
No, they're not. They didn 't sit there refusing to act--read the updated article. They responded to the neighbour, who had paid the fee, having his fence catch on fire as the fire spread, and contained it. They just didn't move in to put out the fire on the asshole's house. It was sensationalistically reported at first. Anyway, they have a duty to make sure that the City of South Fulton still has fire service the next year. If the city just helpfully put out all the fires in the county without demanding payment first, it's quite possible their fire department would go broke and in this economic climate nothing could be done to keep it running, and then the entire city and everyone in it who paid for that fire service could burn down from some random incident. There is simply not enough money for some small rural southern town to provide free fire service across a huge district outside of its town boundaries. Resources are not magically infinite, and the area is so under-served that this is like triage in a mass casualty incident: They choose which houses to save based on prepayment and geographic location because they do not have the resources to save all of them. The only people guilty of anything here is the homeowner for being a retard who can't remember to pay his bills, and the county itself is the true evil force here, for refusing to raise money which would let them provide real fire protection services, likely due to retarded republican anti-tax ideology.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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Kanastrous wrote:Well...part of gambling is supposed to be whinge-free dealing with what happens when you lose. This guy doesn't seem to be handling this like a responsible person who gambled and lost; he sure seems to feel that he was entitled to that same coverage as everybody else even though he did not pay.
There's enough ethical problems with the fire department's arrangement that I have a hard time faulting someone for not paying. Suppose someone had just moved into the area but hadn't had the chance to pay when an accident happened?
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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Apples to oranges. Why do we need to discuss some imaginary person who didn't have an opportunity to pay, when in fact the story revolves around a real person who did have the opportunity, and chose to pass it up?

Ethical concerns aside the fact remains that this fellow was aware of the arrangement, and chose to exclude himself from it. That means that he failed in his rather minimal responsibility to cover his property as his neighbors were doing. What, is he special, or something? There's an ethical argument that he should receive free-of-charge what his neighbors are obliged to pay for?
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

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Kanastrous wrote:Apples to oranges. Why do we need to discuss some imaginary person who didn't have an opportunity to pay, when in fact the story revolves around a real person who did have the opportunity, and chose to pass it up?
I see it as which one has the greater responsibility here. Frankly the fire department should have never had a revenue model like that to begin with, and if it was built into taxes residents wouldn't have to worry about whether or not they've paid it. Blaming the guy whose house burned down is just a red herring for the real problem.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by Kanastrous »

There are two problems - a poorly-designed system and a jackass who was aware of the poor design in the system and chose to bone himself by refusing to subscribe to it.

It's *his* house, and *his* responsibility to ensure coverage by the local FD, if that's the situation in which he lives. Talking about how 'the arrangement should have been different' may be legitimate but it doesn't address the homeowner's sole responsibility to deal with the system as it exists.
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Re: Libertarianism In Action — Obion County, TN

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

General Zod wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:Apples to oranges. Why do we need to discuss some imaginary person who didn't have an opportunity to pay, when in fact the story revolves around a real person who did have the opportunity, and chose to pass it up?
I see it as which one has the greater responsibility here. Frankly the fire department should have never had a revenue model like that to begin with, and if it was built into taxes residents wouldn't have to worry about whether or not they've paid it. Blaming the guy whose house burned down is just a red herring for the real problem.
The Fire Department doesn't have such a revenue model. The fire department is legally charted to serve the city of South Fulton, Tennessee. Everyone in the city of South Fulton Tennessee, does not have to paid any kind of money to receive fire service. However, if you live in the rural county, you have no fire service whatsoever. No fire department is legally obligated to respond to any calls in your area; your fire department consists of the neighbours with buckets like it was still 1750 CE. That is how primitive, barbaric, and lolbertarian the people running Obion County, Tennessee are. However, because the fire department is made out of fairly decent people, they came up with a subscription service to serve parts of the surrounding county, so that the subscriptions could provide the funding necessary to actually provide the service of fighting fires outside of the city where they are legally obligated and fully funded to do so for free.

Without the subscription service, there would be no fire service whatsoever in rural Obion county, and that's entirely the fault of the county comimssioners/council for not raising taxes to provide for rural fire service, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the South Fulton Fire Department.
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