US Marines Pose With SS Flag In Afghanistan

[Thanas]

Everyone of these guys should be made to visit Auschwitz several times over and then get booted out without pay and pension. Of course, none of that will happen. It is almost guaranteed from the "we will not comment on disciplinary measures being taken" that nothing will be done.

Out of curiosity, what would be the cause for firing these men? Conduct unbecoming a marine? I'd be interested to know how they can be disciplined, but I fear that well, this will just get forgotten.

Conduct unbecoming, wilfully disobeying a legal order, breaking regulations (not sure if not wearing the SS symbol is an order or a regulation or if it would make any difference) etc.

[Lonestar]

Out of curiosity, what would be the cause for firing these men? Conduct unbecoming a marine? I'd be interested to know how they can be disciplined, but I fear that well, this will just get forgotten.

Article 15, which is the catch-all "there is nothing specifically against it in the UCMJ but we're gonna get you for it anyway".


Anywho, I found out about this by reading a blog entry on a webcomic:

InSSpiration

If you don’t know what this strip is about, you probably haven’t read or seen the news all over the place that people are freaking out about a photo of a Scout Sniper platoon that features an “SS” flag akin to that of the Nazi SS.

Honestly, I don’t think the Marines intended the flag to have any Nazi affiliation, I think they just thought it was a really cool way to write “SS” on a flag. I’m Jewish, and while I understand why people are upset about it, I don’t think they meant any harm.

It’s not often you’ll see anyone start a sentence with, “One thing that was pretty cool about Nazis,” but I’d like to be the first you’ve read today to say: One thing that was pretty cool about Nazis was their fashion. No one can dispute the absolute horror and disgusting reality of the Nazi party, but black leather, lightning bolts and skulls are pretty badass, and have actually inspired some modern fashion trends.

With that said, there’s really only so much you can say to defend the choice to use a Nazi logo on a flag underneath the American Colors. Of course it’s wrong. Of course it’s stupid. They should have known better, yadda yadda; we’ve all heard it before (and especially recently). But really, everyone knows stuff like this goes on every day, it only matters when the media catches hold of it and blows it up. I doubt half of the people in Scout Snipers even knew it was a Nazi logo, and I’m pretty sure it’s been used by numerous Scout Sniper units in the past. On that note, however, there’s some things you should just avoid: and anything inspired by Nazis is probably a good place to start.

In any case, I’m sure Public Affairs has been having a blast lately.

(I suspect this guys forum is where Shep pulled the other pictures from. There's also a picture of a Afrika Korps Palmtree with the EGA instead of the Swastika)

[Ritterin Sophia]

I was just going to chalk it up to Americans and Marines, generally speaking, being ignorant as fuck, but SS runes AND totenkopfs? That's not just a simple coincidence.

Conduct unbecoming, wilfully disobeying a legal order, breaking regulations (not sure if not wearing the SS symbol is an order or a regulation or if it would make any difference) etc.

It is. Displaying any hate symbols in the US Armed Forces is grounds for immediate dismissal. It's why most members of hate groups wait until they're out of the service before they publicly identify themselves, so they can take their training and disseminate it amongst the rest of the organization, the Neo-Nazi and 'White Pride' groups are especially notorious for it.

[Grumman]

Fallujah 2006.

Mang.

I haven't laughed this hard in weeks. And I don't for a second buy the "ignorance" claim.

To be honest, I'd fall for the second one: when I see a skull and crossbones I think "pirates", not "Nazis".

[Lonestar]

I was just going to chalk it up to Americans and Marines, generally speaking, being ignorant as fuck, but SS runes AND totenkopfs? That's not just a simple coincidence.

Look at what I bought at Disneyworld in January of 2011:




"Skulls and Crossbones" is a common enough thing that it is very easy for me to believe that people wouldn't recognize that as a totenkopf unless they were super-duper WW2 nerds.

[Ritterin Sophia]

"Skulls and Crossbones" is a common enough thing that it is very easy for me to believe that people wouldn't recognize that as a totenkopf unless they were super-duper WW2 nerds.

Yeah, but that's not a 'Danziger', that's just a skull and crossbones. What was being displayed was a variation that was exclusively designed for the SS.

[Lonestar]

Yeah, but that's not a 'Danziger', that's just a skull and crossbones. What was being displayed was a variation that was exclusively designed for the SS.

And in your mind it's unlikely to the point being impossible that most servicemen would view a Totenkopf as just a variation of the Skull&crossbones that has been particularly prevalent in US media since the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise took off?

I guess what I'm saying is:

I think you are giving your average American 18 year old who joins the military a lot more knowledge of WW2 Iconography than they deserve. Maybe one or two in that unit know what the totenkopf is, and it may not bother them because to most Americans it isn't a symbol of the Nazi regime the way the swastika is.

[Darth Wong]

So if it's just ignorance, where are the pictures of black guys doing this? And how can an entire unit not have anybody who would point out the problem or know about it? Do they select Scout Sniper units for unusual stupidity and historical ignorance now?

I think the real problem is that the reverence for chest-thumping machismo has gotten out of control, to the point where the people in this culture start to think that anything which smacks of ruthlessness and machismo is "cool", even if it's Nazi paraphernalia (an attitude which is much easier to hold if you're racist in general). That would account for some of the participants in this conduct; the others would, of course, be actual neo-Nazis who, as the FBI has reported for years, have been deliberately infiltrating the military in order to gain skills which they bring back to their organizations.

[Alkaloid]

There won't just be people ordering skull and crossbones jumpers for their units that happen to have that particular version of the skull and crossbones on it, the guy that ordered it knew what he was doing. But that same guy is not going to go out of his way to get the black guys the jumper, and if they do end up with them he sure as hell isn't going to take a photo and upload it onto the net, because that would defeat the purpose.

[Lonestar]

So if it's just ignorance, where are the pictures of black guys doing this? And how can an entire unit not have anybody who would point out the problem or know about it? Do they select Scout Sniper units for unusual stupidity and historical ignorance now?

Black guys are pretty uncommon in infantry units, for one. For another in all of the photos posted so far there really might be minorities in those photos. A lot of hispanics look like white guys when everyone has the same haircut.

As for minorities that do it, on that board where shep pulled those photos there's a American Indian Marine bragging that he has the SS runes tattooed on him. It happens.

I think the real problem is that the reverence for chest-thumping machismo has gotten out of control, to the point where the people in this culture start to think that anything which smacks of ruthlessness and machismo is "cool", even if it's Nazi paraphernalia (an attitude which is much easier to hold if you're racist in general). That would account for some of the participants in this conduct; the others would, of course, be actual neo-Nazis who, as the FBI has reported for years, have been deliberately infiltrating the military in order to gain skills which they bring back to their organizations.

The long and short of it is that even the people who do know the significance of those runes usually don't care. They aren't offended to the point where it's a problem, and to most Americans the Swastika is the symbol of the Nazi regime, not various SS paraphernalia. As it is, the military has a culture of "suck it up and deal with it". As strange as this may sound, this might be low on the list of priorities of stupid chicken shit stuff the average serviceman has to deal with. Some leaders don't want to be seen as the PC Police, especially when they have to walk on eggshells in other contexts.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So if it's just ignorance, where are the pictures of black guys doing this? And how can an entire unit not have anybody who would point out the problem or know about it? Do they select Scout Sniper units for unusual stupidity and historical ignorance now?

Scout Sniper units screen people suffering from ususual stupidity - unless you honestly believe that they want people who are going to get others/themselves killed and/or fuck up the mission. Historical knowledge likely is not a factor at all. Your second paragraph hits the nail on the head. Scout Sniper units are composed of chest thumping individuals as are most special operational units. At least that is true if chest thumping means individuals with lots of confidence, athletic, and ambitious.

[Ritterin Sophia]

And in your mind it's unlikely to the point being impossible that most servicemen would view a Totenkopf as just a variation of the Skull&crossbones that has been particularly prevalent in US media since the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise took off?

Except that's not just a skull & crossbones, that's a very specific design style. If they were trying to get a jolly roger they would just pick a jolly roger since a Danziger totenkopf is a significantly more difficult symbol to find as iconography outside of known hate groups.

I think you are giving your average American 18 year old who joins the military a lot more knowledge of WW2 Iconography than they deserve. Maybe one or two in that unit know what the totenkopf is, and it may not bother them because to most Americans it isn't a symbol of the Nazi regime the way the swastika is.

No, I was giving them a lot of leeway when it came to the SS runes. When it's SS runes AND a fucking danziger this is not simply something you can pawn off as simple ignorance.

[Zaune]

And, in that hypothetical situation, couldn't the one person who says something speak to his commanding officer?

Soldiers who drop their colleagues in the shit with the CO tend to regret it, especially in combat. I mean, would you want to find yourself relying on one of these guys to watch your back in a firefight when you were indirectly responsible for them receiving punishment duty for a week?

Incidentally, is anyone else morbidly curious to hear what the Al-Queda propaganda machine makes of this? I mean, not only have they got to explain the symbolism to their own rank and file, they have to reconcile this with their own issues with Zionism.

[Lonestar]

Except that's not just a skull & crossbones, that's a very specific design style. If they were trying to get a jolly roger they would just pick a jolly roger since a Danziger totenkopf is a significantly more difficult symbol to find as iconography outside of known hate groups.

Which is why most people don't identify it as such. They've been blasted by the Jolly Roger in the public media for, oh, the last ten years or so, and to a lesser degree even longer. This is my point.

Like Wong said, military people put stuff up in their iconography that is "badass". Hell, there are some photos floating around of the Poles putting the mark of Khorne on their armored vehicles in Afghanistan.

No, I was giving them a lot of leeway when it came to the SS runes. When it's SS runes AND a fucking danziger this is not simply something you can pawn off as simple ignorance.

(1)I haven't, not once, said that everyone out there doesn't know the significance of SS runes and a totenkopf. I have said most don't know about it, or are not offended enough to worry about it.

(2) Shep didn't make this clear, so I will: Those photos did not come from the same unit. They didn't even come from the same type of unit. In fact the way the poster worded it implied that the Totenkopf was used in that unit, but not in conjunction with any other iconography. The SS-rifle was posted by someone from a third unit.

Servicemen put up stupid shit. We had a Jolly Roger with a Danzigerish Skull&Cross bones on it, canted sideways(with "Surrender your booty" underneath) hanging up in my space on my ship. When we did our big drug bust the boarding officer(who was also our division officer) hung it from the Dhows radio whip. CO made him take it down before someone took a picture of it and it ended up on the Internets.

(he was too slow in getting it down before that happened. No, I will not direct you to a photo of it)

[Lonestar]

Addendum to the above:

Nothing I have written is to be construed as me saying that they should not get their pee-pee smacked over this. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If you act stupid in uniform, expect to be made an example out of.

[Spoonist]

The Etruscan, Greek, Roman, Polish and Finnish swastikas however rotate the "right" way.And the Fins actually still use it as a military enblem.

Yes, in some air force formations and other instances, for historical reasons. If you run this Wikipedia page through Google Translate, you will get a more detailed version of the historical reasons than is available on the English or even the German version.

With regard to the Finnish military instances that use it, it is most emphatically not symbol of Nazism.

Swedish company ASEA used it between 1890-1933. Specifically as the symbol for electricity.

So the trams for tourists in Gothenburg sweden which where built by ASEA has swastikas.
http://www.ringlinien.org/vagnhallen/vi ... .asp?id=36

Which the local Israeli embassy brought up with the gov...

[weemadando]

Everyone of these guys should be made to visit Auschwitz several times over and then get booted out without pay and pension. Of course, none of that will happen. It is almost guaranteed from the "we will not comment on disciplinary measures being taken" that nothing will be done.

Out of curiosity, what would be the cause for firing these men? Conduct unbecoming a marine? I'd be interested to know how they can be disciplined, but I fear that well, this will just get forgotten.

Giving aid and comfort to the enemy? Because you can't argue that bullshit like this doesn't firm up the other side's supporter base.

[FSTargetDrone]

Yeah, it's one thing to use a known Nazi symbol. Even if no one else in the unit had an idea of their historical significance, surely the officers should have been cognizant and dealt with it appropriately.

The generic skull & crossbones or Jolly Roger is another thing altogether:





The submarine is the HMS Triumph and the picture is from 2011

[Gunhead]

One of our flags

When our air force was asked to change their flag symbol, they told people to go fuck themselves. The swastika was given to our air force as a sign of good fortune, and as such we will honor it.
That is all.

-Gunhead

[Julhelm]

It's too bad that while US soldiers evidently have no problem snatching Nazi symbols they don't have the good sense to nick the Nazi's Hugo Boss-designed uniforms and replace that horrible ACU or whatever-you-call-it uniform they have now.

[AniThyng]

The Swastika and SS runes may be the most hated and directly linked to the Nazi party, but if being responsible for "world shattering war" is your criteria, shouldn't we be opposed to even the WW1 style iconography still in use by the modern German armed forces, or even on a more local level, the iconography *of the United States Military* itself?

But YMMV - So far as I know no one really cares (outside of the elderly and people with their own hateful nationalistic axes to grind) that Japan gets to keep the Rising Sun flag, though I imagine people tend to think of the sun burst style naval jack when they think WW2 Japan, and don't realize or notice they got to keep that one too.

[Zinegata]

Swastika's history of pure evil is frankly a Western invention. It's still widely used in India, China, and elsewhere without any evil connotation whatsoever. Seriously, does this even look like the Nazi swastika?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HinduSwastika.svg

If you color it black, put on a white circle, and placed on top of a red flag then you can make a case; because that's the complete Nazi iconography.

But really, saying the Swastika as being a symbol of PURE EVIL is like saying all Germans are evil because they produced the Nazis. Just because "people cannot tell the fucking difference" does not excuse this sort of broad generalization.

[madd0ct0r]

Just echoing Zinegata here:

I can walk down the road, pop into the shop that sells religious paraphernalia and get:
a swastika on a necklace, a swastika on a stick, a swastika roof tile topper, a swastika transfer for my bike, a different one for my helmet and, the piece de resistance, a backlit LED swastika for placing behind a Buddhas head for a halo. When you power it up, it shows a swirling 'brain washing' pattern leading into the swastika.

and we're not talking the poncy hindu one above. We're talking regular, angular, at 45 degree angle basic clone of the nazi one. and nobody here even knows, anymore then any American can describe the flag of pre 1975 South Vietnam.
It's a huge deal in the west, but approximately 5/6 of the worlds population doesn't care.

[MKSheppard]

nobody here even knows, anymore then any American can describe the flag of pre 1975 South Vietnam.

That's actually pretty well known. Try again.

[Sidewinder]

It's too bad that while US soldiers evidently have no problem snatching Nazi symbols they don't have the good sense to nick the Nazi's Hugo Boss-designed uniforms and replace that horrible ACU or whatever-you-call-it uniform they have now.

The SS uniform might work as a DRESS uniform, with a color change (white, to show that we're white hats?), but it will NOT work as a combat uniform. Black has an unfortunate tendency to be VERY visible when seen through night-vision goggles.