Brexit and General UK politics thread

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I found it absolutely hilarious that the Labour national conference and diehard supporters were saying they were now ready for government, with Corbyn as the next PM.

What they don't seem to have grasped is that the next election won't come around for another five years. So even if they get in to power they'll inherit what's left of the economy post-Brexit. Perhaps if Corbyn had actually campaigned for remain instead of half-assing it we might not have gotten into this mess.

[Crazedwraith]

What do expect them to say? Everything's fucked and we've got no chance?

Even Vince Cable has to pretend it's plausible he could be PM.

[Simon_Jester]

The guy is like a conservative from the 1920s who time-travelled into today.

I feel for the ambassador.

The previously unbroadcast footage shows the diplomat managing to halt Johnson before he could get to the line about a “Bloomin’ idol made o’ mud/ Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd” – a reference to the Buddha.

He's like an oikish and stupid conservative from the 1920s who time-travelled into today.

Back in the '20s, the Tories' picks for handling foreign affairs were surely racist, but they were at least not as likely to be utterly feckless nonentities.

Nowadays you pretty much have to be that stupid to stay racist. So if a party insists on populating your government with racists, they'll get a much lower caliber of candidate than in the old days.

...

[decides not to bring up his opinions on Kipling in this particular set of company]

[Gandalf]

I found it absolutely hilarious that the Labour national conference and diehard supporters were saying they were now ready for government, with Corbyn as the next PM.

What they don't seem to have grasped is that the next election won't come around for another five years. So even if they get in to power they'll inherit what's left of the economy post-Brexit. Perhaps if Corbyn had actually campaigned for remain instead of half-assing it we might not have gotten into this mess.

I'd wager that Labour knows they're a good fraction of a decade away from having to do anything, so it's easier to look unified and fling all sorts of shit at the existing government until they work out what sticks or the ruling coalition collapses.

That's the great thing about half-arsing elections in times of strife; if one wins, then expectations are lowered. If one loses, then it's a problem for the other guy to solve.

[Thanas]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... settlement

Project fear? Project reality.

[Thanas]

A great article on European negotiation tactics here.

[Vendetta]

They'll just do everything we want because reasons has been a major tentpole of the Brexit campain from the start, so nobody should be surprised.

[Simon_Jester]

It's the kind of surprise that I remember seeing in a quote from a Deadpool comic:

Bullseye: "You can't possibly be this stupid."

Deadpool: "You watch me."

Some kinds of stupid are surprising no matter how many times you see them in action, because they violate the viewer's theory of mind on a fundamental level. Namely, the theory that the person or group you're dealing with HAS a mind.

[Zaune]

I found it absolutely hilarious that the Labour national conference and diehard supporters were saying they were now ready for government, with Corbyn as the next PM.

What they don't seem to have grasped is that the next election won't come around for another five years. So even if they get in to power they'll inherit what's left of the economy post-Brexit. Perhaps if Corbyn had actually campaigned for remain instead of half-assing it we might not have gotten into this mess.

If every single one of the Tory MPs named in an ongoing and increasingly ugly sex scandal turn out to be actually guilty then they might not have to wait that long. And if that doesn't come to pass then it's academic, because the Tories are bidding fair to fuck this up so badly that there won't be much of a United Kingdom left to govern.

[Vendetta]

Though we've already had two cabinet ministers resign their positions in the last two weeks, Fallon for not being able to keep his hands to himself and Patel for doing a bit of freelance international diplomacy when nobody asked her to, and Johnson might be helping to extend prison sentences in Iran for British nationals which is basically the exact opposite of his job.

So y'know, that no confidence vote probably isn't all that far away...

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, there are few things that would make me happier than a no confidence vote on these fuckers followed by a Corbyn win. Pretty much top of my political wish list after a Trump indictment/impeachment. Fingers crossed.

[Vendetta]

Also they have to publish the Brexit impact assessments that they wanted to keep secret on Tuesday (at least to MPs), which is going to be embarrassing because they almost certainly consist of the word "Fucked" repeated for 58 pages. (If there was anything good in them, they'd be shouting about it from the rooftops).

[mr friendly guy]

They'll just do everything we want because reasons has been a major tentpole of the Brexit campain from the start, so nobody should be surprised.

I vaguely remember it was because " Europe needs us more than we need Europe" as a justification. Buttressed with statistics that British trade with the EU is a larger percentage than EU trade to Britain. Even if that is true, the EU with a bigger economy can afford to take a bigger hit, so that type of argument seemed a bit strange to me when I heard it.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I can't think of anything worse than Labour getting back into power- those were the morons whose entire response to the credit crunch & subsequent recession was "YEAH MORE DEBT!!!".

This whole trainwreck might actually be funny if I didn't happen to live in the UK.

We've already got a major NHS figure tearing into the Brexit bullshit, asking if (instead of when) the much-trumpeted £350 million is going to materialise.

[Crazedwraith]

I can't think of anything worse than Labour getting back into power- those were the morons whose entire response to the credit crunch & subsequent recession was "YEAH MORE DEBT!!!".

Because Austerity has worked so well?

From my limited understanding of economic theory more borrowing is a good response to recession to get the economy working again, of course then you're supposed to be paying it off in your fat happy years. Which wasn't happening either.

TBH, none of the parties are that good.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I can't think of anything worse than Labour getting back into power- those were the morons whose entire response to the credit crunch & subsequent recession was "YEAH MORE DEBT!!!".

Because Austerity has worked so well?

From my limited understanding of economic theory more borrowing is a good response to recession to get the economy working again, of course then you're supposed to be paying it off in your fat happy years. Which wasn't happening either.

TBH, none of the parties are that good.

That's where Labour dropped the ball, they had no problems borrowing huge sums of money but when it came to paying back they didn't think things through. The resulting mess is what the Tories inherited- at least because it would have been more expensive to cancel them we didn't lose the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers we had under construction. Since the Invincible-class was retired and scrapped, the alternative would have been the UK having no aircraft carriers at all.

I'm reminded of some reporter asking one of the navy higher-ups what they needed expensive aircraft for. That's right, said reporter didn't get what the first half of the word "Aircraft carrier" really meant!

[Crazedwraith]

Well the Divorce Bill has been settled at some like £50-57 billion.

John Humpfrys annoyed me today, saying everyone knew there was going to be a bill when Chuka Umunna was pointing out Brexiteer lies about the bill.

[Thanas]

Well the Divorce Bill has been settled at some like £50-57 billion.

Funny how that is the exact number the EU wanted, right?


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -is-it-for

[Crazedwraith]

It's almost like our negotiators are incompetent and have no leverage. How about that?

[Thanas]

Guess the EU was whistling a lot.

[Tribble]

Was the "Divorcee Bill" punitive, or just a reflection of the share of the debt the UK owes as an EU member?

[LaCroix]

Was the "Divorcee Bill" punitive, or just a reflection of the share of the debt the UK owes as an EU member?

The actual share. Considering the fact that the UK had enjoyed a "special discount" for pretty much forever, there was little impetus and goodwill to let them off the hook with only a partial payment.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

NI is pretty adamant that unless there's a guarantee over the border, they're going to block any trade talks. And given the DUP are propping up the Tories they actually have the leverage the Brexiteer bunch lack!

[Juubi Karakuchi]

NI is pretty adamant that unless there's a guarantee over the border, they're going to block any trade talks. And given the DUP are propping up the Tories they actually have the leverage the Brexiteer bunch lack!

Funny you should say that.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/no-deal-b ... er-2017-12

No deal: Britain and EU fail to reach agreement on Irish border

Adam Payne and Adam Bienkov

Crunch Brexit talks fail to produce an agreement on the Irish border issue.

"It was not possible to make a complete agreement today," Theresa May told journalists in Brussels.
DUP concerns sunk chances of a deal being reached today.
Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said he was "surprised and disappointed" that May had gone back on her word.
The EU had set Monday, December 4 as the deadline for a deal to be reached on phase one of talks.

LONDON — Prime Minister Theresa May and EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker have confirmed that British and EU negotiators have failed to reach a deal on the first phase of Brexit talks after hours of negotiations.

Speaking at a joint press conference in Brussels on Monday afternoon, the pair said that work still needed to be done on the Irish border.

The UK prime minister said: "Despite our best efforts and significant progress teams have made in recent days, it was not possible to make a complete agreement today."

She added: "I am confident that we will conclude this positively."

Juncker agreed that while significant progress had been made in Brexit talks there was not yet sufficient agreement to enable the negotiations to move onto future trade and transition.

The Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said he was "surprised and disappointed" that May appeared to have gone back on the deal on the Irish border he had agreed with her this morning.

"The responsibility of any prime minister is to ensure that they can follow through on agreements that they make and we are surprised and disappointed that they haven’t been able to," he told a press conference.

It was widely reported this morning that May had agreed a deal with the Irish government that there would be "regulatory alignment" between Northern Ireland and the EU.

Varadkar said a text had been agreed with May but added that the prime minister now appeared to "need a little bit more time" to reach an agreement.

DUP scupper deal

Arlene Foster, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), speaks in Downing Street, London, Britain November 21, 2017. REUTERS/Simon DawsonThomson Reuters

Reports that May had reached an agreement with Ireland were met with incredulity from the DUP earlier on Monday, with their leader Arlene Foster warning in a press conference that they "will not accept" any such deal.

Foster's comments appear to have caught Downing Street off guard this afternoon, with senior sources telling Business Insider that May was forced to leave talks with Juncker in order to speak to the DUP leader on the phone. The talks ended shortly afterwards with May then announcing that no deal had been reached.

Conservative MPs were later briefed by Theresa May's chief of staff Gavin Barwell that no deal had been reached.

One prominent Brexit-supporting Conservative MP welcomed the fact that no deal with Ireland had been reached.

"It turns out that we haven't decided to dismantle the United Kingdom and give into the demands of the Irish government," they said.

"The DUP and the Conservative and Unionist party are at one at keeping the United Kingdom together and Gavin Barwell made it absolutely clear we are not going have as he said trade [differences] between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. It would be completely intolerable."

"You cannot align the regulation of one part of the United Kingdom with the European Union and if we align the whole of the United Kingdom with the regulation of theEeuropean Union then we haven't left the European Union so there is a logical impossibility in doing what the irish government proposes without either remaining in the European Union or splitting up the United Kingdom, neither of which I I'm in favour of."

No agreement has been reached between the EU and UK in #Brexit talks today, says EU Commission President @JunckerEU pic.twitter.com/q9diwTLIwF
— Sky News (@SkyNews) December 4, 2017

Reports that May had agreed to "regulatory alignment" between Northern Ireland and the EU led to immediate calls for similar assurances to be given to other parts of the UK.

The Scottish First minister Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Wales Carwyn Jones and London Mayor Sadiq Khan all argued that they should also be given special access to the single market and customs union if this is granted to Northern Ireland as part of a Brexit package.

Huge ramifications for London if Theresa May has conceded that it's possible for part of the UK to remain within the single market & customs union after Brexit. Londoners overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU and a similar deal here could protect tens of thousands of jobs.
— Sadiq Khan (@SadiqKhan) December 4, 2017

If one part of UK can retain regulatory alignment with EU and effectively stay in the single market (which is the right solution for Northern Ireland) there is surely no good practical reason why others can’t.
— Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon) December 4, 2017

We cannot allow different parts of the UK to be more favourably treated than others. If one part of the UK is granted continued participation in the Single Market & Customs Union, then we fully expect to be made the same offer.
— Carwyn Jones (@fmwales) December 4, 2017

I suspected something like this would happen; but for one of my analyses to actually come true is a first for me.

[Vendetta]

It's the clusterfuck that never stops squirting, that's for sure....