2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Locked
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Q99 »

Gandalf wrote: Even then, what would have to have been in them to affect his support? His supporters know he's all types of sleazy. They know he's scum. But what's important is that he's on their side. It's the same way American liberals overlooked Obama's national security policies because of stuff like the ACA.
I wouldn't say it's 'overlooking' so much as 'noticing that the other side's were worse.'

If you picked someone purely on the most dovish available national security policy, you went Obama both times.
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10653
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Elfdart »

Wild Zontargs wrote:While we can't be sure that all of the claims are false (Gish gallop, anyone?), quite a few have been proven false, and many of the rest could quite easily have been faked, as well. I'm at the point where I'm not believing claims from either side unless there's video evidence, as it's too easy to fake something, there's too much perceived benefit in doing so, and there's almost no danger of being reprimanded if caught out.
So you chose, as the source for your claim that the wetbacks, darkies, homos, mohammedans and uppity bitches are making it all up, is a magazine that also claimed that Da Joooooooooz! were making it all up about the Holocaust, right?



Fail, as the young people like to say.
Image
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

cosmicalstorm wrote:Guess it deserves a separate thread, I'm not going to start one. I will also add that I'm fully aware of the possibility that these e-mails are manipulated. If I was doxxing someone I would probably add some untrue stuff here and there.

My main pointer is that this stuff would have been on the news networks AROUND THE CLOCK if they concerned Trump.

( Sooner or later I expect someone to post a video of him doing blow of a hookers ass or something, was that Pussygrab really the only dirt they could find??)
Other emails were also released that insinuated Podesta’s involvement in a pedophilic sex ring. Several of them mentioned “pizza”, “cheese”, “pasta,” and other foods in a cryptic manner.

In one email sent to Podesta, the email reads that “As for dinner I’m not particularly fussy about the type of pizza I enjoy, just as long as there’s no hair on it, I hate hair on my pizza!” [sic]

Another email to John, reads “I’m dreaming about your hotdog stand in Hawaii…”

And yet another email sent from Podesta himself asks a member of the Sandler Foundation, “the realtor found a handkerchief (I think it has a map that seems pizza-related. Is it yorus?” [sic]
http://shark-tank.com/2016/11/04/clinto ... ng-emails/
The bullshit Comey put out was reported on 24/7, so you don't know what you're talking about or are just throwing shit in a fan.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Q99 wrote:Hillary was a very powerful candidate going in.
I'm tempted to phrase that as "Clinton had such ultra-strong ties to the party leadership positions, that there was effectively no way she'd lose the primaries."
MKSheppard wrote:https://vault.fbi.gov/hillary-r.-clinton

https://vault.fbi.gov/hillary-r.-clinto ... of-04/view

First two pages:
On July 10, 2015, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) initiated a full investigation based upon a referral received from the US Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG), submitted in accordance with Section 811(c) of the Intelligence Authorization Act of 1995 and dated July 6,2015. regarding the potential unauthorized transmission and storage of classified information on the personal e-mail server of former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

The FBI's investigation focused on determining whether classified information was transmitted or stored on unclassified systems in violation of federal criminal statutes and whether classified information was compromised by unauthorized individuals, to include foreign governments or intelligence services, via cyber intrusion or other means.

(U/FOUO) In furtherance of its investigation, the FBI acquired computer equipment and mobile devices, to include equipment associated with two separate e-mail server systems used by Clinton, and forensically reviewed the items to recover relevant evidence. In response to FBI requests for classification determinations in support of this investigation. US Intelligence Community (USIC) agencies determined that 81 e-mail chains, which FBI investigation determined were transmitted and stored on Clinton's UNCLASSIFIED personal server systems, contained classified information ranging from the CONFIDENTIAL to TOP SECRET/SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM levels at the time they were sent between 2009-2013.

USIC agencies determined that 68 of these e-mail chains remain classified. In addition, the classification determination process administered by the US Department of State (State) in connection with Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) litigation identified approximately 2,000 additional e-mails currently classified CONFIDENTIAL and I e-mail currently classified SECRET, which FBI investigation determined were transmitted and stored on at least two of Clinton's personal server systems.
Mr. Bean, would you like to tell us what the yellow section means for the average person if they had such items on their bathroom home-built server?
I'm guessing something like five to ten in the federal pen, yeah, yeah.

Now, to be perfectly blunt, I am going to ask you:

Is it a good outcome, that instead of "careless with classified information" Clinton, we have a guy who would probably spill classified information directly to his pet hooker of the day any time he feels like it, because he's a narcissistic psychopath?

Is the guy who's openly defrauded people for millions a better choice than the establishment politico who handles email carelessly?

Is the woman whose sense of entitlement and privilege is such that she commits a crime involving handling of classified documents worse than the man whose entitlement and privilege is such that he walks in on Teen Miss America contestants in their dressing room?

Seriously, this election was obviously not about character, or about the willingness of presidential candidates to take responsibility for their own actions. Or about holding people accountable for alleged criminal acts- or the woman with one ongoing criminal investigation and no evidence of specific victims would have won out over the man with multiple such investigations and numerous specific victims.

So why pretend it was ever about character, or responsibility, or privilege? We elected a man with none of the first two and one of the thickest slabs of the third in modern American history.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22443
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Mr Bean »

MKSheppard wrote:https://vault.fbi.gov/hillary-r.-clinton

https://vault.fbi.gov/hillary-r.-clinto ... of-04/view

First two pages:
On July 10, 2015, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) initiated a full investigation based upon a referral received from the US Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG), submitted in accordance with Section 811(c) of the Intelligence Authorization Act of 1995 and dated July 6,2015. regarding the potential unauthorized transmission and storage of classified information on the personal e-mail server of former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

The FBI's investigation focused on determining whether classified information was transmitted or stored on unclassified systems in violation of federal criminal statutes and whether classified information was compromised by unauthorized individuals, to include foreign governments or intelligence services, via cyber intrusion or other means.

(U/FOUO) In furtherance of its investigation, the FBI acquired computer equipment and mobile devices, to include equipment associated with two separate e-mail server systems used by Clinton, and forensically reviewed the items to recover relevant evidence. In response to FBI requests for classification determinations in support of this investigation. US Intelligence Community (USIC) agencies determined that 81 e-mail chains, which FBI investigation determined were transmitted and stored on Clinton's UNCLASSIFIED personal server systems, contained classified information ranging from the CONFIDENTIAL to TOP SECRET/SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM levels at the time they were sent between 2009-2013.

USIC agencies determined that 68 of these e-mail chains remain classified. In addition, the classification determination process administered by the US Department of State (State) in connection with Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) litigation identified approximately 2,000 additional e-mails currently classified CONFIDENTIAL and I e-mail currently classified SECRET, which FBI investigation determined were transmitted and stored on at least two of Clinton's personal server systems.
Mr. Bean, would you like to tell us what the yellow section means for the average person if they had such items on their bathroom home-built server?
Instant loss of security clerance followed by being moved to a non-classified project. For most people this means janitor work or in one case I heard about, a mechanical engineer racking leaves out front since he could not pass into secure spaces unless your private rather than goverment in which case it's instant termination instead. Regardless of if your doing yardwork or fired a in depth investigation would be launched and if it were determined anyone had access to said files or had the possibility of said access to files then you will be charged.

Unless your a Clinton as we covered at the time, in the classified world seeing Clinton not getting charged was like seeing someone run down a half dozen school children because they ignored a bus's stop sign get off without so much as a manslaughter charge.

Again we've covered all of this, the failure to prosecute is going to go down in case law classrooms. Still waiting on the various contractors cases who are sighting Clinton case as an example.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

I'll ask you what I asked him.

To be perfectly blunt:

Is it a good outcome, that instead of "careless with classified information" Clinton, we have a guy who would probably spill classified information directly to his pet hooker of the day any time he feels like it, because he's a narcissistic psychopath?

Is the guy who's openly defrauded people for millions a better choice than the establishment politico who handles email carelessly?

Is the woman whose sense of entitlement and privilege is such that she commits a crime involving handling of classified documents worse than the man whose entitlement and privilege is such that he walks in on Teen Miss America contestants in their dressing room?

Seriously, this election was obviously not about character, or about the willingness of presidential candidates to take responsibility for their own actions. Or about holding people accountable for alleged criminal acts- or the woman with one ongoing criminal investigation and no evidence of specific victims would have won out over the man with multiple such investigations and numerous specific victims.

So why pretend it was ever about character, or responsibility, or privilege? We elected a man with none of the first two and one of the thickest slabs of the third in modern American history.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Wild Zontargs
Padawan Learner
Posts: 360
Joined: 2010-07-06 01:24pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Wild Zontargs »

Elfdart wrote:So you chose, as the source for your claim that the wetbacks, darkies, homos, mohammedans and uppity bitches are making it all up, is a magazine that also claimed that Da Joooooooooz! were making it all up about the Holocaust, right?

Fail, as the young people like to say.
You do realize that their claims are backed up with links to actual news reports, and you can even track their sources back to official reports by local police agencies in many cases, yes? The student with the hijab story has even been charged with filing a false report. The site is entirely capable of being right in this case and holding disgusting opinions on other matters.

Edit: and you're bitching about something from the print edition 40 years ago. (Pando article and Reason response) What the fuck does that have to do with this article?
Доверяй, но проверяй
"Ugh. I hate agreeing with Zontargs." -- Alyrium Denryle
"What you are is abject human trash who is very good at dodging actual rule violations while still being human trash." -- Alyrium Denryle
iustitia socialis delenda est
Darmalus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1131
Joined: 2007-06-16 09:28am
Location: Mountain View, California

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Darmalus »

"Please ignore the crimes I have definitely committed, my opponent will probably commit the same ones in the future." is not a compelling argument that inspires trust in your judgement, Simon. That's how you lose an election to a pile of human slime with bad hair.
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by White Haven »

To be blunt, Simon, that's why we have primaries, so we don't end up with a general election that boils down to 'which of these people deserves more prison time than the other.' And yes, I'm still quite pissed at primary voters on both sides of the line, because both of the chucklefucks we ended up with in the general are the sorts of candidates that the primary system exists to filter out.

Whelp.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

White Haven wrote:To be blunt, Simon, that's why we have primaries, so we don't end up with a general election that boils down to 'which of these people deserves more prison time than the other.' And yes, I'm still quite pissed at primary voters on both sides of the line, because both of the chucklefucks we ended up with in the general are the sorts of candidates that the primary system exists to filter out.

Whelp.
I actually agree with this.

My main objection is that at this late date, it is pointless to pretend the election was about character, or for that matter about distant candidates with a sense of superiority over the electorate getting away with crimes. Both parties ran such people (due to the failure of the primary system), and the one whose entitled criminal was better at psychopathic manipulation ran away with the election.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by mr friendly guy »

Wow. Just look at RT's coverage about Clinton supporters crying, and protesting and requiring counselling. Just wow.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7476
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Zaune »

The winning candidate was officially endorsed by the United States of America's oldest domestic terrorist organisation. People are entitled to be seriously freaked out.

Some people reading this might also be interested to hear that Pink Pistols and similar gun-ownership organisations have apparently seen a surge in inquiries from ethnic minority and LGBT+ folks, which should make for some lively political debate.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

White Haven wrote:To be blunt, Simon, that's why we have primaries, so we don't end up with a general election that boils down to 'which of these people deserves more prison time than the other.' And yes, I'm still quite pissed at primary voters on both sides of the line, because both of the chucklefucks we ended up with in the general are the sorts of candidates that the primary system exists to filter out.

Whelp.
To be blunt, you don't know what you're talking about. Primaries exist solely for political parties to choose nominees. And Clinton was hardly a "chucklefuck". She's the single most qualified candidate to be nominated for president in decades.

The real issue is morons, several of whom are on this board and predicted indictments to come down every day that never materialized, who were throwing around the false equivalency that being slightly careless with some emails was on the same level as being a pedophile, rapist, and tax cheat who was born into money who has civil and criminal trials coming up.

But those email indictments are coming any day now! :wanker:
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28796
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Broomstick »

Terralthra wrote:I'm not sure secessionism is actually illegal. It's illegal to secede without the approval of Congress and the legislatures of all concerned states. I think it's actually reasonable to believe that if Cascadia (California, Oregon, Washington) had votes to secede in their respective legislatures and brought the proposal to Congress, the current House and Senate might (hilariously, I think) say good riddance to those hippy states on the Left Coast.
No fucking way - all those capitalist businessmen are NOT going to allow the world's 6th largest economy* to simply walk away.




* California, if you didn't already know.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Darmalus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1131
Joined: 2007-06-16 09:28am
Location: Mountain View, California

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Darmalus »

Broomstick wrote:
Terralthra wrote:I'm not sure secessionism is actually illegal. It's illegal to secede without the approval of Congress and the legislatures of all concerned states. I think it's actually reasonable to believe that if Cascadia (California, Oregon, Washington) had votes to secede in their respective legislatures and brought the proposal to Congress, the current House and Senate might (hilariously, I think) say good riddance to those hippy states on the Left Coast.
No fucking way - all those capitalist businessmen are NOT going to allow the world's 6th largest economy* to simply walk away.




* California, if you didn't already know.
Well, considering 1/3 of Californians voted for Trump and it's highly unlikely you could get a united from from those who didn't (I'd certainly be among those shoot AT secessionists) California would likely be a purely agricultural state with some ruins that were once cities once it was all over, win or lose. I'd be amazed if they didn't break it up into 3-4 smaller states afterward as well.
User avatar
FireNexus
Cookie
Posts: 2131
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:10am

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by FireNexus »

mr friendly guy wrote:Wow. Just look at RT's coverage about Clinton supporters crying, and protesting and requiring counselling. Just wow.
My son is half Asian American. Currently the choice of the white supremacist movement is preparing to move into the White House and discussing a trade war with China (his mom is viet, but the distinction isn't giving me a ton of comfort). Racist bullying and harassment is up in schools and probably only going to rise befor he starts school.Yes, I shed a tear.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.
User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Terralthra »

Darmalus wrote:Well, considering 1/3 of Californians voted for Trump and it's highly unlikely you could get a united from from those who didn't (I'd certainly be among those shoot AT secessionists) California would likely be a purely agricultural state with some ruins that were once cities once it was all over, win or lose. I'd be amazed if they didn't break it up into 3-4 smaller states afterward as well.
Your espousal of violence as a response to peaceful political advocacy has been noted, comrade.
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Q99 »

White Haven wrote:To be blunt, Simon, that's why we have primaries, so we don't end up with a general election that boils down to 'which of these people deserves more prison time than the other.' And yes, I'm still quite pissed at primary voters on both sides of the line, because both of the chucklefucks we ended up with in the general are the sorts of candidates that the primary system exists to filter out.

Whelp.

Here's the thing- Hillary absolutely doesn't deserve to be in prison outside of 'Clinton Derangement syndrome' and the drumbeat of propaganda. Wanna know how many crimes she's been found guilty of in her life? Zero. Wanna know how many she's been charged with? Zero. She's never gotten off on technicalities or anything of the sort- she's had people look, investigate, and go, "Dudes, there's not enough here to say wrongdoing even happened." She's guilty of violating department policy in a way that harmed no-one and which the government never charges people over- not that you'd get that impression from the "more coverage than all policy issues combined," the media decided to give it. Her failure was not in what she'd done, but message control- and even that only to an extent since it took the FBI Director doing a gigantic breach of department policy 6 days before the election in order to make it happen.

And Hillary shellacked Bernie in the primary, by several million votes, because Bernie Sanders fired up one section of the party and got a 'meh' from the majority of the party.


Anyone who tries to say "Oh if only Bernie had won," "the primary was supposed to prevent this!" wasn't paying that much attention to the results.

Now, the Republican primary, that I grant you! It should've been, in order, Jeb, Rubio, Kasich.
Tvpnbb
Redshirt
Posts: 38
Joined: 2016-07-26 06:37pm
Location: Tampere, Finland

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Tvpnbb »

mr friendly guy wrote:Wow. Just look at RT's coverage...
I'm pretty sure this is the part where you went wrong.
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by K. A. Pital »

Tvpnbb wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:Wow. Just look at RT's coverage...
I'm pretty sure this is the part where you went wrong.
RT coverage of US elections should be a delicious mix of schadenfreude. Why did he go wrong? Not everyone likes the US... :P
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4397
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Ralin »

Flagg wrote:But those email indictments are coming any day now! :wanker:
Well, they probably are now!

Seriously though, whether Trump actually follows up on all that stuff about arresting Clinton is going to be my personal litmus test for exactly how bad we can expect him to be.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I don't have a better source than Robert Reich's Facebook page citing a Fox News interview, but reportedly Trump's campaign manager is threatening prosecution of Harry Reid.
Also this morning Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway, appearing on "Fox News Sunday," raised the specter of legal action against political critics of Trump. After condemning comments of Senator Minority Leader Harry Reid, she said Reid “should be very careful … in a legal sense. He thinks — he thinks he's just being some kind of political pundit there, but I would say be very careful about the way you characterize it.”
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Q99 wrote:Here's the thing- Hillary absolutely doesn't deserve to be in prison outside of 'Clinton Derangement syndrome' and the drumbeat of propaganda. Wanna know how many crimes she's been found guilty of in her life? Zero. Wanna know how many she's been charged with? Zero. She's never gotten off on technicalities or anything of the sort- she's had people look, investigate, and go, "Dudes, there's not enough here to say wrongdoing even happened." She's guilty of violating department policy in a way that harmed no-one and which the government never charges people over- not that you'd get that impression from the "more coverage than all policy issues combined," the media decided to give it. Her failure was not in what she'd done, but message control- and even that only to an extent since it took the FBI Director doing a gigantic breach of department policy 6 days before the election in order to make it happen.
I will nitpick one thing: the underlined.

A person of merely ordinary standing within the State Department, or other government agencies, who violated the same department policy would indeed be in serious trouble and for all I know might well be charged.

However, this does not happen when the top-ranking leadership of the organization violates the same rule. And that is not going to change. The reason why that's not going to change isn't of Clinton's creation, and here's the reason.

(I am now speaking mostly to others, not to Q99)

...

The reality is that the State and Defense departments, and others which handle sensitive information, are routinely led by people whose career background is as politicians, lawyers, outside consultants, and the like. This is a reality imposed by the nature of the way our government works: you don't become the tip-top of the Defense Department by promotion through the ranks, you get it by being one of the people the president wants on his* cabinet.

These are people who need not have experience handling classified information. Who have not necessarily received clearances through the normal process. The de facto policy of the US government is to ignore all that, and trust that the Secretary of State is not in fact a spy funneling information to the outside world, or if they are, we're already screwed whether they handle classified documents properly or not.

Furthermore, both parties are full of entitled jackasses, and the Republican candidate pool are no exception to this, and the senior leadership class don't want one of their own being actually punished for doing something like this.

Therefore, there are entire categories of offenses against state procedure that are never punished with criminal charges. Was Bush, or Obama, or any of their underlings, punished for torturing captives? No. Not even because it was legal, but because the reality is that we don't punish senior government officials for policy decisions. Maybe we should, but we don't, and there are some reasons we don't.

In the normal course of things, would Clinton be punished for mishandling classified information? No. Not because it was legal, but because the reality is that we don't punish senior government officials for the way they choose to run their departments. Maybe we should, but we don't, and there are some reasons we don't.

...

The biggest reason we don't do that, in both cases, is that it invites politically motivated criminal charges against senior members of the government, as a way to purge the government of enemies, or to seek revenge against a defeated opponent. There are a lot of countries where everyone in the government is blatantly corrupt, and in those countries corruption charges are actually quite common- but they're used by the party in power to strike down members of a party that has been defeated. The party in power doesn't care about corruption as such, they just want an excuse to crush the opposition.

If we DO see charges pressed against Clinton, or against any senior leader of the Democratic Party, in the first years of a Trump administration, everyone with a brain should be perfectly aware that this is a politically motivated purge. An attempt to destroy political opposition to Trump's rule. Because if the Trump administration ever actually cared about criminal conduct by senior officials, the first thing they'd have to do is turn around and charge their own boss.

[I will make an exception to this if it turns out some senior Democrat is secretly a serial killer or something, AND if there is evidence of that which is clearly the product of neutral parties. But I do not think this to be likely.]
__________________________

*Very much 'his,' apparently...
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I've been reevaluating my position on Trump, of late.

After the election, in the first few days, we saw what appeared to be moves toward conciliation, or at least bog-standard corporatist Republicanism, rather than full-blown white supremacist despotism as some had feared.

But now, already, the Trump camp appears to be shifting back to threats and despotic policies.

The more popular view is likely that Trump is an impulsive, know-nothing buffoon, and that his campaign and staff are a disorganized mess.

But the other, more frightening possibility is that they are deliberately sending mixed messages, with the effect of creating uncertainty and complacency about his intentions, letting everyone see what they want to see- and preventing opposition from mobilizing against his real intentions until its too late.

I suspect its the latter. Because I don't think Trump is stupid. He may be ignorant of subjects which don't affect him, his wealth, and his power personally, but he is not a fool. He is good at one thing: he is a master con man. He won in large part because he managed to rile up the specific segments of the electorate he needed, while keeping those in power from taking him seriously. And now he's doing it again.

His rhetoric and personality is that of an authoritarian. I think we have to assume that he has authoritarian intentions, and not be distracted or lulled by mixed messages.

Edit: To be clear, its not my opinion that Trump is an authoritarian piece of shit that's changed, obviously. Rather, that what I might have put down to incompetence or disorganization in the past, I am more inclined to regard now as a deliberate tactic of misdirection.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
FireNexus
Cookie
Posts: 2131
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:10am

Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by FireNexus »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I've been reevaluating my position on Trump, of late.

After the election, in the first few days, we saw what appeared to be moves toward conciliation, or at least bog-standard corporatist Republicanism, rather than full-blown white supremacist despotism as some had feared.

But now, already, the Trump camp appears to be shifting back to threats and despotic policies.

The more popular view is likely that Trump is an impulsive, know-nothing buffoon, and that his campaign and staff are a disorganized mess.

But the other, more frightening possibility is that they are deliberately sending mixed messages, with the effect of creating uncertainty and complacency about his intentions, letting everyone see what they want to see- and preventing opposition from mobilizing against his real intentions until its too late.

I suspect its the latter. Because I don't think Trump is stupid. He may be ignorant of subjects which don't affect him, his wealth, and his power personally, but he is not a fool. He is good at one thing: he is a master con man. He won in large part because he managed to rile up the specific segments of the electorate he needed, while keeping those in power from taking him seriously. And now he's doing it again.

His rhetoric and personality is that of an authoritarian. I think we have to assume that he has authoritarian intentions, and not be distracted or lulled by mixed messages.

Edit: To be clear, its not my opinion that Trump is an authoritarian piece of shit that's changed, obviously. Rather, that what I might have put down to incompetence or disorganization in the past, I am more inclined to regard now as a deliberate tactic of misdirection.
Trump isn't stupid, but he also isn't smart. He doesn't play 7D Chess. And he's been sending inconsistent messages about his political stances since before they mattered. He might rule as an authoritarian, but he is simply not implementing some grand plan to reshape the world to his whims. He's doing what he always did and he got into the office through luck and skill (being the only one who treated the election as what it's always been: a reality TV show.)

He is scary and can do damage, but there's no need to treat him as if he's some puppet master. He never has been, and never will be. Even he never expected to win at every step of the contest according to new reporting. Treating him like an authoritarian means going to the lengths you'd go to depose one. And when people start trying to assassinate him or rioting, you'll give him all the excuse to actually seize power you want.

Treat him like a shitty president who will set us back 30 years. Once again raising the alarm bells and acting like the sky is falling (Even though your concern was borne out, it was not because you're a great prognosticator.) is going to do no good and may well result in the exact kind of Nightmare scenario yu're warning about. Well, not that you're going to personally be doing anything to begin with. But somebody who does actually participate might take your same sentiment and take a shot at him, which would be a disaster.
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.
Locked