WSJ seems to think there's quite a bit of fuss attached. Link
Of course, I do not trust Boehner and his anarchist sociopathic cult with a set of safety scissors.
Not good. Though emergency measures becoming routine is not a good thing either.
What's the chance that those demands are something they plan to drop during negotiations ?
aerius wrote:So if it passes you guys potentially get to go through this shit again in 6 weeks. Fucking genius! What's next, pass a bill that extends the debt limit one day at a time?
What I don't understand is how repeating this in 6 weeks will help the Republicans.
One question I have
These congress critters are doing it for their corporate buddies. They are not doing it for the American people.
With only essential services running, it has to be hurting these corporate buddies.
If the US defaults on the debt, we will likely get an economic collapse.
I would think that these corporate buddies would be pushing to finish this so they don't lose effectively everything?
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Siege wrote:Isn't this the moment President Josiah Bartlet tells the Speaker to sign the budget or get out because he already met him halfway?
No, this is the moment where we see if Obama is willing to crash the world economy for his ego. If the house passes the debt limit with the condition that Obama come to the table (and he hasn't on the CRs or the FY14 budget) on the funding level and Obama balks, he's the one that gets the flack. As a side note, the blame is going about 50-50 with Obama's numbers dropping into the high 30s and the standard generic congressional match-up not breaking either way yet.
Kitsune wrote:One question I have
These congress critters are doing it for their corporate buddies. They are not doing it for the American people.
With only essential services running, it has to be hurting these corporate buddies.
I'd like some specifics on how the shutdown hurts their corporate buddies. Especially when getting the Democrats to back down will be a major benefit because if they back down over healthcare changes, they will back down over other things in the future.
If the US defaults on the debt, we will likely get an economic collapse.
I would think that these corporate buddies would be pushing to finish this so they don't lose effectively everything?
Agreed. But the default and shutdown are separate things.
Siege wrote:Isn't this the moment President Josiah Bartlet tells the Speaker to sign the budget or get out because he already met him halfway?
No, this is the moment where we see if Obama is willing to crash the world economy for his ego. If the house passes the debt limit with the condition that Obama come to the table (and he hasn't on the CRs or the FY14 budget) on the funding level and Obama balks, he's the one that gets the flack. As a side note, the blame is going about 50-50 with Obama's numbers dropping into the high 30s and the standard generic congressional match-up not breaking either way yet.
Okay, what concessions must he give for you to consider him to not be the Evil Bad Guy? Keep in mind that just rolling over on command for a bunch of lunatics (some of whom think defaulting is not a bad thing) sets a dangerous precedent. Agree to certain cuts? Sure. But you and I both know that the Republicans are gonna keep pushing to kill the ACA. That's their goal this budget, kill the ACA. It's why Boehner is refusing to put a clean CR bill before the House. He doesn't like what's in it and knows that if he does put it forward it'll get through and the Tea Party will see to it that he loses his position as Speaker of the House. If Obama is willing to just kill a single program like that, the Tea Party is going to keep doing it until they kill everything they don't like.
"I'll talk when you stop holding the nation hostage" isn't an ego trip. Or would you just hand over a Rolls Royace to a guy who took someone hostage, knowing he probably will start taking hostages again when he gets the chance? How would you have reacted if the Democrats had done this shit over the war in Iraq? Would you call Bush out for "ego tripping" because he wouldn't just throw his hands up and go along?
Sig images are for people who aren't fucking lazy.
Siege wrote:Isn't this the moment President Josiah Bartlet tells the Speaker to sign the budget or get out because he already met him halfway?
No, this is the moment where we see if Obama is willing to crash the world economy for his ego.
His ego, and a little ancillary thing like taking insurance away from people who have already signed up for it. That's the thing: the deadline has passed. The ACA's exchanges are up. Tens of thousands of families have signed up for insurance. "Delaying" it by a year now means going to all of those families and saying "Nope, sorry, you get no insurance for a year. If we decide to let you have it then, of course. We might shut the government down and fuck with the debt ceiling next year." That's what happens when you negotiate with someone holding hostages: they know exactly what they have to do to get whatever concessions they want next time.
TimothyC wrote:If the house passes the debt limit with the condition that Obama come to the table (and he hasn't on the CRs or the FY14 budget) on the funding level and Obama balks, he's the one that gets the flack.
Come to what table? No CR or budget bill has come to him for signature, since the House and Senate have yet to pass the same bill.
TimothyC wrote:As a side note, the blame is going about 50-50 with Obama's numbers dropping into the high 30s and the standard generic congressional match-up not breaking either way yet.
bilateralrope wrote:I'd like some specifics on how the shutdown hurts their corporate buddies. Especially when getting the Democrats to back down will be a major benefit because if they back down over healthcare changes, they will back down over other things in the future.
Businesses, including a hot dog store in Columbus, Ohio, can't get their government-backed Small Business Administration loans. (LINK)
Congress' failure to consider a farm bill because of the shutdown is hurting dairy farmers. (LINK and LINK)
Sugar daddy websites, focusing on relationships that feature older men who spend lavishly on women, are witnessing a spike in interest, which some website operators attribute to young women losing government benefits. (LINK)
Real estate agents in Texas are seeing less business. (LINK)
Veterans, including 100 Missouri State University students, will not receive federal tuition assistance. (LINK)
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service facilities -- in states that include Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio and Wisconsin -- are closed to the public. (LINK)
Timber contracts for national parkland have been suspended and sales are slowing. (LINK and LINK)
A town in Montana dependent on seasonal tourism has become a "ghost town." (LINK)
A dinosaurs fossil exhibit museum delivery to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History has been delayed. (LINK)
Private tour companies near Yellowstone National Park have seen a dramatic drop in customers. (LINK)
An annual roundup of wild ponies on the Eastern Shore of Virginia has been canceled. (LINK)
Private hotels on government property are struggling with the shutdown and the absence of customers. (LINK and LINK)
The director of a project to study stink bugs was furloughed, just as the pests are beginning to find winter hiding places inside homes. (LINK)
Arizona stopped payments to 5,200 families eligible for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families. (LINK)
Private businesses at Grand Canyon are suffering. (LINK and LINK)
A legal challenge to Texas' voter ID law has been delayed at the request of the Department of Justice. (LINK)
Officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are growing frightened. "The blind spots are getting bigger every day as this goes on," said CDC spokeswoman Barbara Reynolds in Atlanta. (LINK)
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission court cases have been delayed in Maine. (LINK)
The citrus forecast, which influences price negotiations between Florida growers and juice processors, was cancelled. (LINK)
NASA websites have been pulled down. (LINK)
King crab fishing boats have to stay docked without government approval of permits and quotas, costing Alaska fisherman potentially "hundreds of thousands of dollars." (LINK)
Everglades restoration project funding has been jeopardized. (LINK)
Tours at Abraham Lincoln Birthplace National Park in Kentucky have been canceled. (LINK)
Some Native Americans are not receiving scholarships. (LINK)
Other Native American communities are seeing nutrition programs, foster care payments, financial assistance for the poor and anti-elder-abuse programs cut. (LINK)
Oregon State University is losing $600,000 a day in federal research money. (LINK)
Dog park volunteers are being forced to stay at home in Oregon. (LINK)
Medicare program audit has been delayed. (LINK)
Farm and livestock producers are lacking basic information to make business decisions. (LINK)
Two New Hampshire families were stuck in Arizona parking lot after planning 20-day rafting trip on the Colorado River. (LINK)
Lockheed Martin announced it was furloughing 3,000 workers in Colorado. (LINK)
The Maverick Mountain Bike Championship canceled two of its three races in Colorado. (LINK)
The absence of a farm bill has hit cotton farming in Georgia. (LINK)
Nursery plants in Virginia may die waiting to be given to defense installations. (LINK)
Federal investigators can't inspect a fatal Metro accident in Washington, D.C. (LINK)
The Department of Justice is seeking a delay in a National Security Agency case. (LINK)
Washington, D.C.'s, food trucks have lost a tremendous amount of business. (LINK)
United Technologies Corp. says it may furlough more than 5,000 workers in Nevada. (LINK)
Sea turtle monitoring in Florida has been hampered. (LINK)
Children in Tennessee couldn't ride the bus to school. "Since the Great Smoky Mountains are closed, along with a number of roads overseen by rangers, a some parents had to find another way to get their children to class. During the government shutdown, Bus #49 could not make its route." (LINK)
Habitat for Humanity has been dealt a funding cut. (LINK)
A free health care clinic in Alabama can't take on new patients. "Our hands are tied because we can’t help those patients unless we get that," said Cullman’s Good Samaritan Clinic Executive Director Kelly Lindsey. "We also work with pharmaceutical companies to get people free medicine, but they won’t do that unless we have that paperwork. It’s impacting us quite a bit now." (LINK)
A boy was denied blood test until Sen. Jerry Moran (R-Kansas) stepped in to help. (LINK)
Unemployment claims skyrocketed 500 percent in Utah. (LINK)
Build America Bond rebates were not being paid. (LINK)
A death penalty appeal in North Dakota was delayed. (LINK)
Pig virus monitoring was stopped. (LINK)
A wedding was displaced in Tennessee because it was in a national park. (LINK)
Canopy tours in Great Smoky Mountain National Park saw "a dramatic decrease in the number of people walking through their doors." (LINK)
All of the ones I have underlined have been effecting businesses and I am sure that these are just a few items.
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
It's not like all corporate entities are besties with each other. Right now, it seems that health insurance lobby's influence has gotten to the point where it's starting to hurt the interests of other corporate entities.
Kitsune, how much influence do each of those affected businesses have in US politics (alone or as a group), compared to other large corporate lobbies ?
For the lobbies that are for, or at least neutral, on the matter of the shutdown, what things are likely to make them change their mind ?
Unemployment claims skyrocketed 500 percent in Utah. (LINK)
Seeing as I don't know how unemployment claims work in the US, could someone elaborate on how this is hurting businesses ?
TimothyC wrote:As a side note, the blame is going about 50-50 with Obama's numbers dropping into the high 30s and the standard generic congressional match-up not breaking either way yet.
bilateralrope wrote:Seeing as I don't know how unemployment claims work in the US, could someone elaborate on how this is hurting businesses ?
Businesses pay some sort of money towards unemployment benefits. As I've never employed anyone I'm not entirely sure how that works, but more unemployment claims increase this amount.
Also, unemployment benefits are rather meager. The unemployed severely cut back on purchases, which means businesses sell less stuff.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
You could almost say that it is the circle of life
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
TimothyC wrote:No, this is the moment where we see if Obama is willing to crash the world economy for his ego.
I like how you tacitly admit that the Republicans are a bunch of brats, discussion with them is impossible, and Obama has to be the grownup. Because if they were rational beings, surely you would be saying that there is a third option: that they relent.
Similar to a bill we passed last fall, laying out broad from Ryan Budget principles for what tax reform should look like.
Gives fast track authority for tax reform legislation
Energy and regulatory reforms to promote economic growth
Includes pretty much every jobs bill we have passed this year and last Congress
All of these policies have important positive economic effects.
Energy provisions
Keystone Pipeline
Coal Ash regulations
Offshore drilling
Energy production on federal lands
EPA Carbon regulations
Regulatory reform
REINS Act
Regulatory process reform
Consent decree reform
Blocking Net Neutrality
Mandatory Spending Reforms
Mostly from the sequester replacement bills we passed last year
Federal Employee retirement reform
Ending the Dodd Frank bailout fund
Transitioning CFPB funding to Appropriations
Child Tax Credit Reform to prevent fraud
Repealing the Social Services Block grant
Health Spending Reforms
Means testing Medicare
Repealing a Medicaid Provider tax gimmick
Tort reform
Altering Disproportion Share Hospitals
Repealing the Public Health trust Fund
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
SirNitram wrote:Isn't that mostly copy-paste from their proposals for if Romney won?
My understanding from other sources is pretty much "Give us everything we want."
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV)
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:I like how you tacitly admit that the Republicans are a bunch of brats, discussion with them is impossible, and Obama has to be the grownup. Because if they were rational beings, surely you would be saying that there is a third option: that they relent.
Why should the republicans give up? This is the only way to force Obama to the table to even talk about deficit reduction, and he likes to play dirty all the time, so why shouldn't the republicans?
Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure what TimothyC is smoking there but the public is blaming the GOP more than the President by 22 points. 50-50 blame my ass!
CNN has it at a 5 point R-D spread, with a 10 point R-Obama spread, and that's will a full court press from the media!). The fundamental point remains that for most people there is plenty of blame to go around, but around here partisan blinders are in full effect.
Also, I would like for someone to explain to me why it's ok for private (non-governmental) groups to pay for death benefits (as Obama's spokesperson has said), but not to pay for everything else that has been offered?
"I believe in the future. It is wonderful because it stands on what has been achieved." - Sergei Korolev
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:I like how you tacitly admit that the Republicans are a bunch of brats, discussion with them is impossible, and Obama has to be the grownup. Because if they were rational beings, surely you would be saying that there is a third option: that they relent.
Why should the republicans give up?
Because you lost the White House and the Senate, and this is supposed to be a democracy, not rule by a spoiled minority having a tantrum.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
SirNitram wrote:Isn't that mostly copy-paste from their proposals for if Romney won?
Eh, the global economy going kaboom couldn't be that bad by comparison. Do what you gotta do, guys, we'll work something out.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:I like how you tacitly admit that the Republicans are a bunch of brats, discussion with them is impossible, and Obama has to be the grownup. Because if they were rational beings, surely you would be saying that there is a third option: that they relent.
Why should the republicans give up? This is the only way to force Obama to the table to even talk about deficit reduction, and he likes to play dirty all the time, so why shouldn't the republicans?
Yes, exactly. "Holding the American (and world) government hostage is the only way to retroactively win the election we mostly lost (Presidential, Senate, and lost seats in the House) campaigning against a law we don't like." Have you considered that maybe "economic collapse" is too high a wager for a game of poker over a health care law that is essentially decades behind the rest of the industrialized world?
TimothyC wrote:
Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure what TimothyC is smoking there but the public is blaming the GOP more than the President by 22 points. 50-50 blame my ass!
CNN has it at a 5 point R-D spread, with a 10 point R-Obama spread, and that's will a full court press from the media!). The fundamental point remains that for most people there is plenty of blame to go around, but around here partisan blinders are in full effect.
I love how you read the paragraph with one poll's spread, but not the next few paragraphs:
Your Own Fucking Article wrote:But the NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey and two other polls suggested a wider gap between the two parties.
By a 22-point margin, more people in the NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey blame the GOP in Congress rather than the White House for the partial shutdown. And only 24% approve of the job congressional Republicans are doing, 12-points lower than the approval rating for their Democratic counterparts.
Forty-five percent of those questioned in an ABC News/Washington Post poll said they approved of the way Obama was handling budget negotiations, with 35% saying the same thing about congressional Democrats. Neither figure is anything to brag about, but they are better than this number: Only 25% gave a thumbs up to how the GOP in Congress was handling the budget talks.
And just 28% of those in the new Gallup survey say they have a favorable opinion of the Republican party, down 10 points from last month, an all-time low in nearly 75 years of Gallup polling. The favorable rating for the Democratic party slipped four points in the survey to 43%.
TimothyC wrote:Why should the republicans give up?
Because you lost the White House and the Senate, and this is supposed to be a democracy, not rule by a spoiled minority having a tantrum.
Playing devil's advocate, if throwing a tantrum and threatening to screw things up for everyone has proven to work in the past in getting what they want, then why the hell would they stop doing it? If it works, keep doing it until it doesn't work anymore and the other party & the people make them stuff it where the sun don't shine.
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either.
While a part of me stays stand firm on this and don't let the whiners win, the fallout is potentially quite severe and will likely extend beyond the US borders.
On the other hand, health coverage IS a matter of life or death... which is about the best reason I can think of for not giving in on this issue.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Broomstick wrote:While a part of me stays stand firm on this and don't let the whiners win, the fallout is potentially quite severe and will likely extend beyond the US borders.
On the other hand, health coverage IS a matter of life or death... which is about the best reason I can think of for not giving in on this issue.
There can't be a person with an internet connection and a half-decent grasp of any language commonly spoken in the States who doesn't know people who stand to have their lives ruined by any moderately serious medical condition as long as the status quo persists.
Does anyone here seriously think we should begrudge the global economy taking a moderate kicking if it means that stops being a thing? I sure don't.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin
Broomstick wrote:On the other hand, health coverage IS a matter of life or death... which is about the best reason I can think of for not giving in on this issue.
I'm going to throw out a hypothetical situation. As we all know the healthcare act is something like 2000 pages and if someone tells me they fully understand what's in there I'm gonna call that person a liar. So let's say the Republicans get some key concessions from the Democrats on various parts of the healthcare act in exchange for funding it and passing the rest of the budget or whatever the hell it is you call it these days. If they're smart they'll do it in such a way that it cripples Obamacare and/or causes it to fail or run very poorly.
So let's say a few years down the road the healthcare act results in a total fuckup, partly because it was a 2000 page bill with god knows what it in, and also because the Republicans managed to fuck things up with the concessions they extracted. I bet less than 1% of the population understands the damn bill, and even fewer will remember or understand what the Republican modifications were. The Repubs then get to pin all the failures on the Dems and possibly get enough support to repeal the entire act. Boy would that ever be a fuckjob.
I don't know what the solution is. Well, short of reforming the way your entire government system works.
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either.
