Rampage shooting in Santa Barbara by misogynist 22-yo.

[His Divine Shadow]

Having to demonstrate a need to own something is downright childish, the fact someone has to prove they need it, has to get permission from mummy and daddy to own something, can be denied just on the whim of some governmental idiot is amazingly demeaning. I know for a fact most Eurocommie countries self defense is not a reason to need a gun, for the most part the only reasons someone in most Europeon countries can own a gun is to defend live stock from predators.

I agree in principle, but the amount of people who own guns in europe (UK excepted, not really europe either) would probably surprise you, as would the kind of guns they can own, and the reasons they can give for ownership. My gun collection might surprise you.

[Jub]

Having to demonstrate a need to own something is downright childish, the fact someone has to prove they need it, has to get permission from mummy and daddy to own something, can be denied just on the whim of some governmental idiot is amazingly demeaning. I know for a fact most Eurocommie countries self defense is not a reason to need a gun, for the most part the only reasons someone in most Europeon countries can own a gun is to defend live stock from predators.

How is that childish? Firearms aren't toys and as tools, they exist only to escalate a situation either via use or threat of their use. They do little or nothing to 'defend' in most situations and lead to things like increasingly militarized police which also contribute to gun violence.

(As an aside - I'd like to see US police shooting stats and especially their kills factored into gun violence when comparing the US to Europe.)

Also, in most parts of Europe you can own a weapon, handguns included, if you hunt or belong to a registered shooting club. Ammunition and weapons must be stored in separate locked containers that meet safety requirements. Self-defense is not considered a valid use of firearms there, much the same as it isn't in Canada; but when most criminals have difficulty getting weapons there isn't as much of a point.

How is any of this objectionable when guns are looked at as dangerous tools instead of rights protected defensive gear?

[amigocabal]

Having to demonstrate a need to own something is downright childish, the fact someone has to prove they need it, has to get permission from mummy and daddy to own something, can be denied just on the whim of some governmental idiot is amazingly demeaning. I know for a fact most Eurocommie countries self defense is not a reason to need a gun, for the most part the only reasons someone in most Europeon countries can own a gun is to defend live stock from predators.

How is that childish? Firearms aren't toys and as tools, they exist only to escalate a situation either via use or threat of their use. They do little or nothing to 'defend' in most situations and lead to things like increasingly militarized police which also contribute to gun violence.

(As an aside - I'd like to see US police shooting stats and especially their kills factored into gun violence when comparing the US to Europe.)

Also, in most parts of Europe you can own a weapon, handguns included, if you hunt or belong to a registered shooting club. Ammunition and weapons must be stored in separate locked containers that meet safety requirements. Self-defense is not considered a valid use of firearms there, much the same as it isn't in Canada; but when most criminals have difficulty getting weapons there isn't as much of a point.

How is any of this objectionable when guns are looked at as dangerous tools instead of rights protected defensive gear?

I live in America.

Most of us do not trust "some government idiot" to judge whether or not we need a firearm, due in no small part to America's rather colorful history on race relations.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If I wanted to, I could get the GINI coefficients for each state and use that as a predictor variable as well, but I did not think to do so last night.

Just curious; here's the GINI for Maryland 1979-1999:

http://www.mdp.state.md.us/msdc/income_ ... table1.pdf

and crime stats for Maryland 1975-2013 in XLS from the Office of the Governor:

http://www.goccp.maryland.gov/msac/coun ... ebsite.xls

What do your maths say?

I have told you this by PM, but unfortunately that data is useless on its own because I need that data for all states and in PDF form... I can do the manual data entry to process that, but there are limits to what I will do for an argument on the internet

[amigocabal]

Elliot Rodger's manifesto:

http://fusion.net/story/5741/elliot-rod ... manifesto/

[Jub]

Having to demonstrate a need to own something is downright childish, the fact someone has to prove they need it, has to get permission from mummy and daddy to own something, can be denied just on the whim of some governmental idiot is amazingly demeaning. I know for a fact most Eurocommie countries self defense is not a reason to need a gun, for the most part the only reasons someone in most Europeon countries can own a gun is to defend live stock from predators.

How is that childish? Firearms aren't toys and as tools, they exist only to escalate a situation either via use or threat of their use. They do little or nothing to 'defend' in most situations and lead to things like increasingly militarized police which also contribute to gun violence.

(As an aside - I'd like to see US police shooting stats and especially their kills factored into gun violence when comparing the US to Europe.)

Also, in most parts of Europe you can own a weapon, handguns included, if you hunt or belong to a registered shooting club. Ammunition and weapons must be stored in separate locked containers that meet safety requirements. Self-defense is not considered a valid use of firearms there, much the same as it isn't in Canada; but when most criminals have difficulty getting weapons there isn't as much of a point.

How is any of this objectionable when guns are looked at as dangerous tools instead of rights protected defensive gear?

I live in America.

Most of us do not trust "some government idiot" to judge whether or not we need a firearm, due in no small part to America's rather colorful history on race relations.

That sounds like an appeal to emotion rather than rational criticsm. Is that really the best you've got?

[Zaune]

I live in America.

Most of us do not trust "some government idiot" to judge whether or not we need a firearm, due in no small part to America's rather colorful history on race relations.

You could always try not voting for idiots.

[His Divine Shadow]

Got some bullshit motherfuck laws foisted on us by the EU just now btw with the terror attacks as a thinly veiled excuse, so here's three cheers to a brexit and hope for more exits later.

[amigocabal]

I live in America.

Most of us do not trust "some government idiot" to judge whether or not we need a firearm, due in no small part to America's rather colorful history on race relations.

You could always try not voting for idiots.

Why did not black people simply vote out the idiots who perpetuated Jim Crow laws?

[Alyrium Denryle]

I live in America.

Most of us do not trust "some government idiot" to judge whether or not we need a firearm, due in no small part to America's rather colorful history on race relations.

You could always try not voting for idiots.

Why did not black people simply vote out the idiots who perpetuated Jim Crow laws?

Because they were not allowed to vote.

[Flagg]

You could always try not voting for idiots.

Why did not black people simply vote out the idiots who perpetuated Jim Crow laws?

Because they were not allowed to vote.

Don't. They don't get it. The next line will be that gun control was 'cause of the blacks to keep them from getting their rights.

[Zaune]

The NRA has been known to be remarkably amenable to tighter regulations when some black civil-rights groups started organising armed security at their meetings...

But in any case, my central point is that while you might not be up for Democracy of the Year even in 2016, the US pays more than lip-service to the concept of universal sufferage. If you don't think your government should be making important decisions on your behalf at the national level then vote for someone else. If you find a deal-breaker policy in all possible candidates then run for office yourself.

Or if you find the whole system so badly flawed that you really can't see any prospect of improving them without radical action, take your Second Amendment rights and do something constructive with them. Maybe fewer protest marches will end with unprovoked pepper-sprayings if the marchers can fight back.

[Flagg]

The NRA has been known to be remarkably amenable to tighter regulations when some black civil-rights groups started organising armed security at their meetings...

But in any case, my central point is that while you might not be up for Democracy of the Year even in 2016, the US pays more than lip-service to the concept of universal sufferage. If you don't think your government should be making important decisions on your behalf at the national level then vote for someone else. If you find a deal-breaker policy in all possible candidates then run for office yourself.

Or if you find the whole system so badly flawed that you really can't see any prospect of improving them without radical action, take your Second Amendment rights and do something constructive with them. Maybe fewer protest marches will end with unprovoked pepper-sprayings if the marchers can fight back.

Please, if blacks shot back there would be national guard troops shooting anything brown that moved down to paper bags and chocolate labrador's!

[Zaune]

Well, yeah. That's a definite possibility. But we've seen what happens when white people bring armed security to a sit-in protest, and nobody got massacred then.

The way I see it, there's two possible outcomes. Either the state government recognises that the 1st and 2nd Amendments do apply to black people as well, the cops are ordered to take a hands-off approach and the protestors do what they came to do without anyone getting killed... or they drop the hammer on the protestors and shit goes down, live on multiple US and foreign news networks, and everyone with a TV set and a pulse has irrefutable proof that something is badly wrong with the way their country is being governed.

While the outcome that doesn't water the tree of liberty with the blood of innocent bystanders is obviously preferable, both those scenarios ultimately result in a net win for the protestors. Martyrs are good PR tools.

[MKSheppard]

Because they were not allowed to vote.

Fun fact: Firearm Permits/Permission in the south were Jim Crow, especially North Carolina's Pistol system, which was passed in 1919 with the apparent support of the local KKK.

Essentially, you need to get the permission of your county sheriff and pay $5 to him each time you want to purchase a handgun.

What it does; is it allows sheriffs to discriminate at will. Some counties are $5 dollars in and out the door; while other's are well....let's just say in the 2010s; a member of a gun board was basically told to not even bother applying to get a pistol purchase permit or a NFA signoff, as his county sheriff basically would not sign either for black men.

[MKSheppard]

I have told you this by PM, but unfortunately that data is useless on its own because I need that data for all states and in PDF form... I can do the manual data entry to process that, but there are limits to what I will do for an argument on the internet

Why is data needed for all states?

By law, since 1968 all handgun purchases are only possible within a person's home state.

There's also a wide disparity of income within the state at the county level.

[MKSheppard]

EDIT. Whoops.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I have told you this by PM, but unfortunately that data is useless on its own because I need that data for all states and in PDF form... I can do the manual data entry to process that, but there are limits to what I will do for an argument on the internet

Why is data needed for all states?

By law, since 1968 all handgun purchases are only possible within a person's home state.

There's also a wide disparity of income within the state at the county level.

Because there is a lot of variation in homicide data, and to break down how everything works, I need variation in other variables like urbanization etc that exists at the same time. It is just how a time-series analyses work.

[amigocabal]

Because they were not allowed to vote.

Fun fact: Firearm Permits/Permission in the south were Jim Crow, especially North Carolina's Pistol system, which was passed in 1919 with the apparent support of the local KKK.

Essentially, you need to get the permission of your county sheriff and pay $5 to him each time you want to purchase a handgun.

What it does; is it allows sheriffs to discriminate at will. Some counties are $5 dollars in and out the door; while other's are well....let's just say in the 2010s; a member of a gun board was basically told to not even bother applying to get a pistol purchase permit or a NFA signoff, as his county sheriff basically would not sign either for black men.

There could be a viable equal protection argument agasinst these discretionary permit policy. In 1967, the Supreme Court struck down a California law that guaranteed an absolute right for private citizens to sell or lease real estate as they see fit, holding that protecting such unfettered discretion by private citizens constituted state encouragement of private racial discrimination. How then would granting sheriffs discretion to deny permits to those who meet all statutory qualifications not be state encouragement of racial discrimination.

[madd0ct0r]

I have told you this by PM, but unfortunately that data is useless on its own because I need that data for all states and in PDF form... I can do the manual data entry to process that, but there are limits to what I will do for an argument on the internet

Why is data needed for all states?

By law, since 1968 all handgun purchases are only possible within a person's home state.

There's also a wide disparity of income within the state at the county level.

Because there is a lot of variation in homicide data, and to break down how everything works, I need variation in other variables like urbanization etc that exists at the same time. It is just how a time-series analyses work.

Im happy help if its just data transcription. Its interesting, even if self defence instances are where id like to see stuff proved.

[Flagg]

I fucking told you people. These posts (Flagg and Shep) have been moved from the Orlando Shooting thread for violation of my Gun Control Embargo
~AD

Christ, almost had a heart attack reading the very long dead list and found the last name of a former best friend, then was relieved it wasn't his first name.

Then I read on about how he was on his cell phone to his mother and she heard her poor son, the one I was glad was dead instead of my friend, begging for his life and the answering gunshots that murdered her son. Now I feel like a piece of shit.

I'm sorry Flagg, that's some heavy shit to deal with. I know you probably couldn't give two shits about me, but if you need to vent shoot me a PM. We're all part of the same dysfunctional SDN family.

Naa, I cried like a wimp to my mommy, I'm all good.

But I felt like a piece of shit for feeling like I was even inserting myself in the situation, because it's not my friend, yet now I feel the pain of a mother who lost her kid, and in expressing that pain have made myself part of it, and I don't know...

This is another case where the anger can be directed at so many sources:
The Asshole who did it, of course.
The cunt wife who knew he was going to do it and didn't bother calling 911 after he left on his "errand".
The asshole politicians in FL who didn't want to acknowledge it was a hate crime as well as an act of terrorism, especially Governor Rick Scott (aka Dick Snot).
A huge lot at the gun "rights" defenders who would rather see shit like this than have to reload and carry more magazines (as opposed to the ones with sense who see this as a tragedy, not time to raise the bridges and man the walls) and plenty left for the gun control advocates who can't wait a day and give their opponents false charge to call them vultures.
And an infinite amount more for the NRA who get the vast bulk of their money from gun manufacturers and the rest of the soulless Merchants of Death lobby in DC who care more about keeping their revenue stream than what their own members think, let alone the hundreds (at least) of innocents who die in accidental, misidentification, and children playing with, gun deaths every fucking year.

[MKSheppard]

And an infinite amount more for the NRA who get the vast bulk of their money from gun manufacturers and the rest of the soulless Merchants of Death lobby in DC who care more about keeping their revenue stream than what their own members think, let alone the hundreds (at least) of innocents who die in accidental, misidentification, and children playing with, gun deaths every fucking year.

NRA Form 990O for 2013

$175M from member dues
$83M from contributions/gifts/grants
$24M from advertising sales
$19.3M from goods sold
$16.3M from royalties
$13M from related organizations
$7.8M from program fees
$3.6M from subscriptions sales
$1.4M from investments
$400K from fundraisers

PS; you're talking to a voting member of the NRA.

[Flagg]

$174m from member dues.
$172.4m ($83m (a vast bulk, I'd say) in contributions, grants, gifts, from unmentioned sources, wonder who they are?).
Now post a graph you empathy lacking twat.

[MKSheppard]

$174m from member dues.
$172.4m ($83m (a vast bulk, I'd say) in contributions, grants, gifts, from unmentioned sources, wonder who they are?).
Now post a graph you empathy lacking twat.

It's right there in their own IRS Form 990O.

NRA Form 990Os for 2013-x

For the 2013 Form it's:

$175M from member dues (people like me)
$83M from contributions/gifts/grants (rich people, corporations, etc)
$24M from advertising sales (sales in NRA magazines, NRA internet channel, etc)
$19.3M from goods sold (NRA badged merchandise)
$16.3M from royalties (stuff they own the rights to etc, reprints)
$13M from related organizations (I assume to use NRA ranges, equipment, etc)
$7.8M from program fees (they run shooting sports competitions, train cops, etc)
$3.6M from subscriptions sales (the NRA magazines, American Rifleman, etc)
$1.4M from investments (INVESTMENTS)
$400K from fundraisers (Surprisingly not a lot).

Total: $343.8M, which is actually in line with the Total Revenue $347,968,789.

[Adam Reynolds]

$174m from member dues.
$172.4m ($83m (a vast bulk, I'd say) in contributions, grants, gifts, from unmentioned sources, wonder who they are?).
Now post a graph you empathy lacking twat.

It's right there in their own IRS Form 990O.

NRA Form 990Os for 2013-x

For the 2013 Form it's:

$175M from member dues (people like me)
$83M from contributions/gifts/grants (rich people, corporations, etc)
$24M from advertising sales (sales in NRA magazines, NRA internet channel, etc)
$19.3M from goods sold (NRA badged merchandise)
$16.3M from royalties (stuff they own the rights to etc, reprints)
$13M from related organizations (I assume to use NRA ranges, equipment, etc)
$7.8M from program fees (they run shooting sports competitions, train cops, etc)
$3.6M from subscriptions sales (the NRA magazines, American Rifleman, etc)
$1.4M from investments (INVESTMENTS)
$400K from fundraisers (Surprisingly not a lot).

Total: $343.8M, which is actually in line with the Total Revenue $347,968,789.

This isn't actually a response to the above point, but I wanted this to appears as a response to you in general(not sure if quoting the other thread would work). It is actually about the point you made in the British shooting thread:

(sarcasm)

This is a blatant hoax. There is no way she could have been shot in a nation with common sense gun controls with no psychopathic National Rifle Association to enable the easy sales of handheld murder tubes.

(/Sarcasm)

On a serious note, it's looking like she was shot with a zip gun.

This wasn't the only shooting in Orlando that weekend: Singer Chrstina Grimmie was shot by a deranged fan the day before the nightclub shooting. It's too bad, I rather liked her.