Uprising in Libya

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Thanas »

Broomstick wrote:Ally in the sense of having a common enemy, perhaps, but "ally" usually has a connotation of friendship. In this case we'd be "allies" in the same sense that the US and Britain were "allies" with Stalin and the Soviets during WWII - and that started falling apart even before the official end of the war.
I wrote:Also, Libya is an ally in the war against terror.
Did you miss the obvious qualifier in there? Really? Or are you just semantic whoring?
For fuck's sake, Thanas, it's not like nations that don't like each other have never worked in a common cause before. Are you now going to claim that the US and the USSR were staunch allies because of the Apollo-Soyuz joint missions?
Would you please stop this strawmanning? Since when does "ally in the war against terror" (you know, the one with the huge stinking qualifier) mean "staunch allies"? And how the heck is the word ally not applicable to nations united in a common cause?
But more specifically - your cite for the rendition process mentions torture in "Afghanistan, and supervised their torture in Pakistan and Thailand" but not in Libya. I can certainly see the possibility that torture occurred in Libya but that particular cite does not support it, though it does support torture in other places. If you're propping up your argument shouldn't you use cites that explicitly mention torture in Libya? Seriously, you couldn't find something more explicit from Human Rights Watch?
Oh, what do you think happened to them in Libyan prisons? That they were feted with wine and harem girls?
Another worrying possibility is that prisoners were transferred from CIA custody to places where they may face torture. A serious concern is that some of the missing prisoners might have been returned to their countries of origin, which include Algeria, Egypt, Libya and Syria, where the torture of terrorism suspects is common.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/02/25/u ... ll-missing
One concern is that the US might have transferred some of the remaining prisoners to foreign prisons where for practical purposes they remain under CIA control. Another worrying possibility is that prisoners were transferred to places where they face a serious risk of torture: indeed, some of the missing prisoners are from Algeria, Egypt, Libya, and Syria.
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/11021/section/2
The rendition of persons to countries that practice torture has been especially problematic among the member states of the Arab League. Of the fifty-six persons known to have been rendered to Egypt over the past decade, thirty-two have been sent there by neighboring Arab countries. In a number of cases, these renditions have involved “swaps” for persons wanted by the sending country, such as Yemen and Libya, where torture is also practiced.
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/04/27/torture-worldwide
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Aaron »

Broomstick, are you editing your posts?
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Thanas »

Aaron wrote:Broomstick, are you editing your posts?
Yes, she is. Apparently she felt that her accusation of "I never back up my words" was too silly to stand but forgot that you and I already had quoted her.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28782
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Broomstick »

Thanas wrote:
Broomstick wrote:But I don't expect it since I can't remember the last time Thanas had anything positive to say about the US,
Oh, forgive me for not daily praising the USA. Tell you what - I'll praise your country when it doesn't hold people indefinitely without trial anymore.
And.... once again you have to fling yet another negative on the table. As I said, I can't remember the last time you said anything positive - no, wait, let's make that not negative - about the US. Instead of pointing out something positive you did say, sometime, you have to put another negative down.

So, Thanas - DO you have anything positive to say about the US at all? EVER? Or are you as biased as you appear to be?
or responded positively to an American asking him to back up any of his statements.
Whoa now. I don't care much what you think of me, but pray tell, when have I not responded positively to a request of evidence? You tell me where and I'll back up my words immediately.
? By "back up my words immediately" do you mean "take back my words" or "provide evidence that I haven't responded positively"?

Anyhow - the example that most readily comes to mind is in this thread where Simon Jester politely asks for clarification on what, exactly, constitutes the "idiotic and distorted views" that just got someone else HOS'd for the explicit purpose of AVOIDING such mistakes in the future so HE doesn't do them and you, Thanas, accuse him of hijacking the thread (he's asking why something got HOS'd and that's now thread hijacking?). Sure, there might be come context the rest of us aren't aware of but there's no way to know that reading the thread and, holy shit, Thanas, you slap down someone who is TRYING to avoid making the same mistake in the future? I'd also like to know what the hell the guy did in the past that was so horrible but I'll be damned if I EVER ask you about it because, frankly, the last thing I need is to have you so pissed at me you summarily flush me down the toilet.

I mean, really, I hesitated to even put THAT up and half expecting you'll HOS me for daring to point it out but you DID ask. What the hell, I should bow out now since any conflict with you is only likely to hurt me.
There's also the possibility that the US isn't going to do anything or let anything happen because the US doesn't give a flying fuck about Libya. Why should we? If we do anything we'll get shit on for intervening. If we don't, we'll get shit on for not intervening. With all the weeping and wailing about American interference why are you perturbed if there's a case were the US doesn't intervene.
Ah, so explaining why the US would not intervene is wailing and weeping. Pray tell how you arrived at that conclusion?
Wasn't referring to YOUR reaction - you, at least, would be pleased if the Americans stayed home and out of foreign affairs entirely.
For the record, I do not want the US or the UN to intervene in Libya. That way lies madness.
And let it be noted that this is something we both actually agree on, even if we don't have the same exact reasons for doing so.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28782
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Broomstick »

Thanas wrote:
Aaron wrote:Broomstick, are you editing your posts?
Yes, she is. Apparently she felt that her accusation of "I never back up my words" was too silly to stand but forgot that you and I already had quoted her.
Not "too silly" - inaccurate. I hadn't seen Thanas's cites. I thought I overwrote it quickly enough, but apparently not. Deception was not the intent, accuracy was.

But really, I can't win against Thanas, so I'll leave now. Good bye to this thread.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Aaron »

:lol: And I was just about to bow out because my disgust and loathing of you as a person is rendering me unable to debate properly. Here's for being a slow typer I suppose.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Thanas »

Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Broomstick wrote:But I don't expect it since I can't remember the last time Thanas had anything positive to say about the US,
Oh, forgive me for not daily praising the USA. Tell you what - I'll praise your country when it doesn't hold people indefinitely without trial anymore.
And.... once again you have to fling yet another negative on the table. As I said, I can't remember the last time you said anything positive - no, wait, let's make that not negative - about the US. Instead of pointing out something positive you did say, sometime, you have to put another negative down.
What the heck is your goddamned problem? I explain why I do not praise the USA daily. And you have the gall to get on your high horse and accuse me of being negative in a thread where the only thing I did was explain the fact that Libya is an ally in the war against terror.
So, Thanas - DO you have anything positive to say about the US at all? EVER? Or are you as biased as you appear to be?
How about you stop being such a dishonest little twerp? Because then you might realize that there are plenty of instances I have spoken in favor of the USA and US citizens. What, just yesterday I posted in favor of the Wisconsin protesters. I also remember posting in favor of Pelosi and Clinton several times. But don't let facts disturb your little world view.

*snip*
Oh no you did not just pull that up, you dishonest little child. When I know for a fact that this issue was settled in a PM discussion between you, Edi and me. So why bring up something that was settled long ago?

I also really love how you apparently have a Thanas file on your computer.
Wasn't referring to YOUR reaction - you, at least, would be pleased if the Americans stayed home and out of foreign affairs entirely.
Another strawman from the strawhead.

Broomstick wrote:Not "too silly" - inaccurate. I hadn't seen Thanas's cites. I thought I overwrote it quickly enough, but apparently not. Deception was not the intent, accuracy was.
So when you posted
But I don't expect it since I can't remember the last time Thanas had anything positive to say about the US, or responded positively to an American asking him to back up any of his statements.
You really meant "responded positively to an American asking him to back up any of his statements in this thread"? Funny that, especially as it appears like you meant something else entirely.
But really, I can't win against Thanas, so I'll leave now. Good bye to this thread.
You just didn't leave a thread in a hissy fit without conceding, did you?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by MKSheppard »

I've been incommunicado for the last few days, due to personal reasons. I check in and hear from friends that:

Sub Saharan mercs have been flown in to put down the rebellion

protestors have seized tanks

garrisons are defecting to the rebels to fight the libyan secret police....

libya's foreign ambassadors have begun resigning and calling for the Army to defend the people

...i check on SDN and this thread -- and see this trainwreck. UGH.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by MKSheppard »

Benghazi MAY be in full revolt, with Army units nearby having joined the revolts and wiped out Gadhaffi's death squads. The Libyan air force MAY have bombed the city at some point.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by MKSheppard »

Link

Earlier, members of a Libyan army unit told Benghazi residents they have defected and "liberated" the city from pro-Gaddafi forces.

Speaking from the city, a local man named Benali, told Sky News that members of the Libya's armed forces have defected and that anti-regime protesters are now in control of the city.

Habib al-Obaidi, who heads the intensive care unit at the main Al-Jalae hospital, appeared to confirm the reports, saying the "Thunderbolt" squad arrived at the hospital with soldiers who had been injured in clashes with Gaddafi's men.

"They are now saying that they have overpowered the Praetorian Guard and that they have joined the people's revolt," said Mr al-Obaidi.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by MKSheppard »

no link as I'm pressed:
Late on Sunday, the country’s Warfala tribe, one of the largest among Libya’s population of 6.4 million, announced it was throwing its heft behind the protesters, suggesting momentum was tipping further against Mr. Gadhafi…

In the city of Bayda, east of Benghazi and close to Libya’s border with Egypt, witnesses said local police turned their guns on the army’s second brigade after it deployed inside the city and fired live ammunition at protesters. The local police’s flip forced the surprised army forces to withdraw to the airport on the city’s outskirts, according to witnesses…

“There are really no constraints at all on what Gadhafi can do and we’ve reached the point where a lot of peaceful protesters are starting to arm themselves to do battle,” said Heba Morayef, a researcher for Human Rights Watch following events in Libya.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7464
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Zaune »

This isn't going to end well, is it?
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Phantasee
Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker.
Posts: 5777
Joined: 2004-02-26 09:44pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Phantasee »

Depends on what you mean by "well". I have faith that the people will overthrow Qaddafi, but it will be bloody for them. But witness the strengthening of the resolve of protesters in Bahrain, after their security forces tried to crack down on them with live rounds fired into a crowd. They went from limited demands and small protests to thousands of people marching for the overthrow of the king.
XXXI
User avatar
Setzer
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 3138
Joined: 2002-08-30 11:45am

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Setzer »

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 91589.html

According to Al Jazeera, the revolt has spread to the capital. I think if Qadaffi were able to put this down, he'd have done it when it was still limited to Benghazi. The fact that army units are defecting indicates his days are numbered, as far as I'm concerned.
Image
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Setzer wrote:http://english.aljazeera.net/news/afric ... 91589.html

According to Al Jazeera, the revolt has spread to the capital. I think if Qadaffi were able to put this down, he'd have done it when it was still limited to Benghazi. The fact that army units are defecting indicates his days are numbered, as far as I'm concerned.
Good. If Qadaffi is ousted the Bahrainians may feel bolstered by their success that they can do the same, which will hopefully help to spur on the Iranians.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by K. A. Pital »

Heh. All hail the pan-Arabic Revolution?

Events in Bahrain are a bit different than Tunisia, Egypt or even Libya. They have a high level of life and lots of oil wealth. And yet they protest. It seems religion is playing a far greater role there than in any of the poorer Middle Eastern nations.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
CaptainChewbacca
Browncoat Wookiee
Posts: 15746
Joined: 2003-05-06 02:36am
Location: Deep beneath Boatmurdered.

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

And in other news, the Libyan Parliament building is on fire.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
ImageImage
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28782
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Broomstick »

By request of a moderator I am making one more appearance in this thread.

Mr. Thanas, thank you for providing cites to substantiate Libya's participation in rendition and torture. I do sincerely mean that, and will no doubt find them useful when arguing with doubters and disbelievers elsewhere.

As you have pointed out instances were you have spoken positively about things American I retract my statement that you never do so. So accept this as my concession in that matter.

The rest of you have an invigorating discussion. I will, as stated, not return to this thread.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by MKSheppard »

Gadhaffi's son threatens Civil War:

We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end.
CNN) -- As reports streamed in Monday of protesters setting fire to a government building in Libya's capital and ransacking state TV headquarters, questions swirled around Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi -- and whether he could be the third Arab leader toppled by the wave of protests rippling through the region.

His son, Saif al-Islam Gadhafi, warned on state television of "a fierce civil war" if the demonstrations don't halt. But protesters showed no sign of abiding by the call. After the central government apparently lost control Sunday of Benghazi, some angry protesters in Tripoli hoped to bring about the same result for the nation's capital.

Tripoli residents said state-run al-Shababiya TV was attacked Sunday evening by anti-government protesters. One eyewitness told CNN al-Shababiya TV was off the air from Sunday evening until about 1:30 a.m. Monday.

Another Tripoli resident told CNN he witnessed Tripoli's security headquarters building on fire Monday morning.

In Tripoli's famous Green Square, there were a few hundred pro-government protesters gathered with a speaker addressing them, one eyewitness said.



Protester: 'We want our basic rights'

Protester in Benghazi

Benghazi protester describes offensive

Libya's ex-ruling family speaks out A group of protesters met overnight in the western neighborhood of Gergash and tried to make their way to the Green Square, but they were met by security forces who shot tear gas at them and overwhelmed them to disperse, an eyewitness said.

CNN could not immediately confirm reports. The Libyan government maintains tight control on communications and has not responded to repeated requests from CNN for access to the country. CNN has interviewed numerous witnesses by phone.

The unrest, spurred largely by demands for freedom and angst over high unemployment, has left at least 233 people dead in Libya, according to Human Rights Watch, citing information from hospital sources. CNN has been in communication with medics and eyewitnesses in Libya, whose accounts appear to corroborate information from Human Rights Watch.

It was unclear why the 68-year-old Gadhafi, Libya's leader of 42 years, did not address the country, and left that to his son. Some raised questions about Gadhafi's whereabouts.

Libya is sandwiched between the two countries in which protesters have managed to oust their leaders in recent weeks: Tunisia and Egypt.

Sporadic gunfire continued to ring out in parts of the North African nation Monday. About 500 rioters stormed a South Korean-operated construction site near Tripoli, wounding 17 workers and causing a stand-off with police, the South Korean foreign ministry said.

Saif Gadhafi, the leader's second-oldest son, proposed the speedy implementation of significant democratic reforms in the traditionally restrictive country while warning of a return to colonialism and mass poverty if opposition protests continue.

"We can speak rationally, we can spare the blood, we can stand all together for the sake of Libya," he said. But if the unrest continues, "forget about democracy, forget about reform ... It will be a fierce civil war."

The younger Gadhafi, appointed in 2009 as Libya's general coordinator, also accused international media of overstating the extent of the violence, though he acknowledged "mistakes" by police and the military in addressing the unrest. Still, he principally blamed drunks, criminals and foreigners for fanning dissent and instigating attacks that threatened to tear apart Libya.



Protests outside Libyan Embassy in Egypt

Libya timeline of protests

Watching the Libyan unrest from afar

Demanding democracy in Libya RELATED TOPICS
Libya
Benghazi
Moammar Gadhafi
Protests and Demonstrations
He accused anti-government elements of "sedition."

"This is a national treason," he said. "Each one of us wants to be a leader; each one of us wants to be a prince."

Saif Gadhafi insisted his father is not like recently deposed Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali.

He also said Libya is unlike those two countries, predicting that its civil war would be "1,000 times worse" and its economic hardship even more severe should the current government fall.

Saif Gadhafi also acknowledged changing times regionally and proposed "radical" reforms -- like bolstering local governments, relaxing restrictive laws, raising salaries, extending loans and drafting a constitution, which doesn't now exist.

Michele Dunne of the Carnegie Endowment for Peace noted that the Western-educated Saif Gadhafi has pushed such reforms previously, but they have not gotten much traction.

To some, the speech fell on deaf ears.

"Everything he said doesn't mean anything, really," one protester said. "I want to demonstrate. I don't want this regime. ... He's a tyrant," he said of the elder Gadhafi.

A medical staff member at Benghazi Medical Center called Saif Gadhafi a liar.

"There are no divisions among Libyans," the staff member said. "We want to be united with our brothers and sisters ... All Libyans think this way, it is the regime that lacks knowledge about the people."

If Gadhafi were to fall, it is unknown who, or what form of government, would take over. While Libya is "in theory, governed by the populace through local councils," it is "in practice, an authoritarian state," the CIA World Factbook reports. The population of 6.5 million is made up of numerous tribes, officially broken down in 22 administrative divisions. Libyan state TV also pointed blame at anti-government elements. On Monday, an anchor said Libya is under attack by foreign forces who wish to occupy the country for its oil and because it is the "gateway to Africa." According to the anchor,

the unrest is meant to fragment Libya into different states to make the country weaker and easier to colonize.

Unlike in Tunisia and Egypt, where demonstrators proclaimed a stance of nonviolence, some anti-government protesters in Libya have set fire to cars and tried to breach a military camp, according to witnesses. A protester said the military camp is significant because it houses Gadhafi's eastern palace.

On Sunday, multiple witnesses reported that protesters took over Benghazi with support from some members of the military who dropped their allegiance to Gadhafi.

"Benghazi is free from the tyrant," a protester said. "Hopefully the whole country will be free of him."

The witnesses are not being identified for security reasons.

However, Saif Gadhafi insisted the military remained loyal to the ruling government and would be taking an increasingly active role in suppressing unrest in the coming days.

One man told CNN that uniformed troops opened fire on thousands of mourners as they passed through the streets during a funeral procession honoring those killed the previous day.

A protester said some fellow anti-government demonstrators had weapons. Saif Gadhafi said criminal elements had stolen weaponry and even fired them in an attempt to cast blame on military and security forces.

One man, a technology expert who has set up cameras airing live online video streams around Benghazi, estimated that the numbers of anti-government demonstrators in the city has grown since the protests began Tuesday.

"There are a lot of people getting killed for their freedom," he said Sunday. "Our goal is simple: We want Gadhafi to leave. We want freedom. ... We want democracy."

On Sunday, clashes in Tripoli broke out between a large crowd of demonstrators and people who appeared to be mercenaries in the center of the city, according to an activist.

Masked, armed men in sports utility vehicles drove through the streets blasting pro-government music, said the witness, who claimed that the same people had been firing at protesters and passerby.

Gunfire also rang out near Green Square and the presidential palace, according to multiple witnesses. Another man said that men were walking around Libya's streets with automatic rifles early Monday, firing apparently indiscriminately.

Libya's ambassador to the Arab League said Sunday he resigned his position on Saturday over "the killing of innocent people." Abdel Elhuni said the protesters are asking for "normal things" and that Gadhafi is "over, finished." He speculated that the Libyan leader has only a day or two left in power because "he lost the people."

British Foreign Secretary William Hague spoke on Sunday with Saif Gadhafi and "made clear the U.K.'s grave concern at the escalation of violence," the Foreign Office said in a statement. "He expressed alarm at reports of large numbers of people being killed or attacked by Libyan security forces."

The United States also said it was "gravely concerned with disturbing reports and images coming out of Libya."

U.S. officials have communicated with Libyan officials, including Libyan Foreign Minister Musa Kusa, "our strong objections to the use of lethal force against peaceful demonstrators," State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said. "Libyan officials have stated their commitment to protecting and safeguarding the right of peaceful protest. We call upon the Libyan government to uphold that commitment and hold accountable any security officer who does not act in accordance with that commitment."
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Thanas »

According to the BBC, Gaddafi has also lost the support of the biggest tribe in Libya.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by MKSheppard »

link
Al-Jazeera reported Monday that the Libyan air force has bombed protesters who were on their way to an army base, according to eyewitness testimony.

The protesters were reportedly heading to the army base to obtain ammunition, but witnesses said the air force bombed the demonstrators before they could get there.

Clashes between protesters and security forces escalated on Monday and have spread to Tripoli, after Muammar Gadhafi's son went on state television to proclaim that his father remained in charge with the army's backing and would fight until "the last man, the last woman, the last bullet."

The protests and violence were the heaviest yet in the capital, a sign of the spread of unrest after six days of demonstrations in eastern cities demanding the end of the elder Gadhafi's rule.

Even as Seif al-Islam Gadhafi spoke Sunday night, clashes were raging in and around Tripoli's central Green Square, lasting until dawn Monday, witnesses said. They reported snipers opening fire on crowds trying to seize the square, and Gadhafi supporters speeding through in vehicles, shooting and running over protesters. Early Monday, protesters took over the office of two of the multiple state-run satellite news channels, witnesses said.

A major government building in the capital was on fire on Monday morning, a Reuters reporter said. The building is where the General People's Congress, or parliament, meets when it is in session in Tripoli.

After daybreak Monday, smoke was rising from two sites in Tripoli where a police station and a security forces bases are located, said Rehab, a lawyer watching from the roof of her home.

"The city on Monday was shut down and streets empty, with schools, government offices and most shops closed except a few bakeries serving residents hunkered down in their houses," she said, speaking on condition she be identified only by her first name.

In Libya's second biggest city, Benghazi, protesters were in control of the streets Monday after days of bloody clashes and were swarming over the main security headquarters, looting weapons, several residents said. A Turkish Airlines flight trying to land in Benghazi on Monday was forced to circle over the airport and then return to Istanbul.

Protesters in Benghazi took down the Libyan flag from above the city's main courthouse and in its place raised the flag of the country's old monarchy, toppled in 1969 in the military coup that brought Moammar Gadhafi to power, one witness said.

Libya has seen the bloodiest crackdown of any Arab country on the wave of protests sweeping the region that toppled the leaders of Egypt and Tunisia.

Since the six days of unrest began, more than 200 people have been killed, according to medical officials, human rights groups and exiled dissidents.

Gadhafi's son said his father would prevail.

"We are not Tunisia and Egypt," he said. "Moammar Gadhafi, our leader, is leading the battle in Tripoli, and we are with him."

The armed forces are with him. Tens of thousands are heading here to be with him. "We will fight until the last man, the last woman, the last bullet," he said in a rambling and sometimes confused speech of nearly 40 minutes.

He warned the protesters that they risked igniting a civil war in which Libya's oil wealth will be burned. He also promised historic reforms in Libya if protests stop.

Seif has often been put forward as the regime's face of reform. Several of the elder Gadhafi's sons have powerful positions in the regime and in past years have competed for influence. Seif's younger brother Mutassim is the national security adviser, with a strong role in the military and security forces, and another brother Khamis heads the army's 32nd Brigade, which according to U.S. diplomats is the best trained and best equipped force in the military.

The clashes in Tripoli began Sunday afternoon, when protesters from various parts of the city began to stream toward central Green Square, chanting God is great, said one 28-year-old man who was among the marchers.

In the square, they found groups of Gadhafi supporters, but the larger number of protesters appeared to be taking over the square and surrounding streets, he and two other witnesses said. That was when the backlash began, with snipers firing down from rooftops and militiamen attacking the crowds, shooting and chasing people down side streets, they said.

"We saw civilian cars with Gadhafi pictures, they started to look for the protesters, to either run over them or open fire with automatic weapons," said the 28-year-old, reached by telephone. "They were driving like mad men searching for someone to kill. ... It was total chaos, shooting and shouting."

The witnesses reported seeing casualties, but the number could not be confirmed. One, who spoke on condition he be identified only by his first name Fathi, said he saw at least two he believed were dead and many more wounded. "I could still hear gunfire after 5 A.M. this morning," he said.

Human Rights Watch has reported 332 dead since the protests began on Thursday.

After midnight, protesters took over the main Tripoli offices of two state-run satellite stations, Al-Jamahiriya-1 and Al-Shebabiya, one witness said. All the witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity because of fears of retaliation.

After daybreak Monday, Green Square and its surrounding streets were empty. Schools, government offices and most stores were shut down across the city of 2 million, the witnesses said. State TV sought to give an air of normalcy, reporting that Muammar Gadhafi received telephone calls of support from the presidents of Nicaragua and Mali. It showed footage of a crowd of Libyans said to be from the town of Zeltein chanting their support for Gadhafi in a conference hall. Gadhafi, in flowing black and brown robes, waved to the crowd with both hands. It was not clear when the scene was taking place.

Western countries have expressed concern at the rising violence against demonstrators in Libya. British Foreign Secretary William Hague said he spoke to Seif al-Islam by phone and told him that the country must embark on dialogue and implement reforms, the Foreign Office said.

In his speech, the younger Gadhafi conceded the army made some mistakes during the protests because the troops were not trained to deal with demonstrators, but he added that the number of dead had been exaggerated, giving a death toll of 84.

He offered to put forward reforms within days that he described as a historic national initiative and said the regime was willing to remove some restrictions and begin discussions for a constitution. He offered to change a number of laws, including those covering the media and the penal code.

He threatened to eradicate the pockets of sedition and said the army will play a main role in restoring order. He blamed Islamists, thugs, drunks and drug abusers and foreigners of being behind the unrest.

The rebellion by Libyans frustrated with Gadhafi's more than 40 years of authoritarian rule has spread to more than a half-dozen eastern cities.

In other setbacks for Gadhafi's regime, a major tribe in Libya - the Warfla - was reported to have turned against him and announced it was joining the protests against him, said Switzerland-based Libyan exile Fathi al-Warfali. Although it had long-standing animosity toward the Libyan leader, it had been neutral for most of the past two decades. Libya's representative to the Arab League said he resigned his post to protest the government's decision to fire on defiant demonstrators in Benghazi.

The Internet has been largely shut down, residents can no longer make international calls from land lines and journalists cannot work freely, but eyewitness reports trickling out of the country suggested that protesters were fighting back more forcefully against the Middle East's longest-serving leader.

Video footage posted on the Internet on Monday showed cars in Benghazi honking their horns in celebrations while protesters chanted, Long live Libya and Libya is all one. Several witnesses said police and security forces had disappeared from the streets and protesters were in control after heavy clashes the day before.

Youth volunteers were directing traffic and guarding homes and public facilities, said Najla, a lawyer and university lecturer in Benghazi, who spoke on condition she be identified only by her first name.

"Protesters also took over the Katiba, the city's main security headquarters, and some had looted weapons," a female resident said. "Now there is no sight of government officials, police or any presence of the government in the streets," she said.

Inside the large Katiba compound, protesters found the bodies of 13 uniformed security officers who had been handcuffed and shot in the head, then set on fire, said Ahmed Hassan, a doctor at Al Jalaa hospital who was among those who found the bodies. He said protesters believed the 13 had been executed by fellow security forces for refusing to attack protesters.

Fighting erupted Sunday in the city following funeral ceremonies for protesters killed the day before. Crowds marched down the city's highway running along the Mediterranean coast, then protesters began to attack the Katiba and police station as security forces opened fire.

In some cases, army units reportedly turned against security forces and pro-Gadhafi militias to side with the protesters. Mohamed Abdul-Rahman, a 42-year-old Benghazi merchant, said he say an army battalion chasing militiamen from a security compound. Najla, the university lecturer, said a local unit of commandos joined the protesters.

Khaled Abu Bakr, a resident of Sabratha, an ancient Roman city to the west of Tripoli, said protesters besieged the local security headquarters, driving out police and setting it on fire. Abu Bakr said residents are in charge, have set up neighborhood committees to secure their city.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by MKSheppard »

The current flag of libya adopted after quadaffi's coup in 1969 is ALL GREEN.

The protestors seem to be waving this flag:

Image

This is the flag adopted by Libya on independence in 1951. The flag continued in use until the overthrow of the monarchy in the military coup of 1969. The stripes represent the three constituent provinces of Cyrenaique (black), Fezzan (red) and Tripolitania (green). The colours are those of the Arab revolt flag.
THE NATIONAL FLAG

From the Constitution of Libya issued on 7th October, 1951. Chapter I, Art. 7

The national flag shall have the following dimensions: Its length shall be twice its breadth, it shall be divided into three parallel coloured stripes, the uppermost being red, the centre black and the lowest green, the black stripe shall be equal in area to the two other stripes and shall bear in its centre a white crescent, between the two extremities of which there shall be a five-pointed white star.

"The exact particulars of the Libyan National Flag prescribed by Article 7 of the Constitution shall be as follows: The red shall be sign red, and the green permanent green. The Crescent shall be on the hoistward side of the star, and the centre of the circle of which the crescent forms a part shall be in the centre of the flag. The star shall be in the open end of the crescent and one point of the star shall point to the centre of the circle. The maximum width of the 270 crescent shall equal 1/6th of its outside diameter which is 1/4th of the width of the flag. The distance between the tips of the crescent shall equal that between the uppermost and lowermost point of the star measured along a perpendicular forming the hoistward sides of these two points. The perpendicular shall form a tangent to the outside circumference of the crescent at a point equidistant from the top and bottom of the flag."

The flag is an emblem of the state symbolic of sovereignty and fortitude. It is flown high and free on buildings and offices in main streets and by-roads, on Libyan Embassies abroad, at the U.N. porticos and international conferences or at celebrations in which the State is represented.

Nations tend to create a halo of legends and tales around their flags which in fact reflects the procession of events and developments through which a country has passed. Libya is no different in this respect. Our coloured flag fluttering high in the sky is a source of pride which we associate with many episodes of chivalry and glory. In the words of a well known Arab poet "Our deeds are the colour of white, our battles of black, our meadows of green and our swords of red."

Though books and journals say very little about the background, the story of the Libyan flag and its colours is a vivid one imprinted on our hearts and carefully treasured and passed by father to son from one generation to an other. It is the story of lifelong struggle and reward, the story of innocent lives and pure blood shed in the cause of freedom, liberation, and defence of our country, the story of the painful past, with its dark lonely night and the smiling future with peace and plenty for the whole nation, the story of life itself, evolution and progress, development and change, the bright future, the noble aims and the long march.

The crescent is symbolic of the beginning of the lunar month according to the moslem calendar. It brings back to our minds the story of Hijra (migration) of our prophet Mohammed from his home in order to spread Islam and teach the priciples of right and virtue.

The Star represents our smiling hope, the beauty of aim and object and the light of our belief in God, in our country, its dignity and honour which illuminate our way and puts an end to darkness.

Every particle of soil in our dear country is soaked with the blood of innocent martyrs, every stone relates the story of continued struggle. They all stand as witness to the great sacrifices and the dear price paid for the sake of liberating our country.

The flag of my country is likened to a narrator who will tell our story to the future generations, the story of the past, the present, and the bright days to come.
The source is the booklet The Libyan Flag & The National Anthem issued by the Ministry of Information and Guidance of the Kingdom of Libya. (Publication date unknown).

(FROM FLAGS OF THE WORLD)
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by FaxModem1 »

So, full on civil war?

Damn, this is going to be a mess.
Image
User avatar
Soontir C'boath
SG-14: Fuck the Medic!
Posts: 6813
Joined: 2002-07-06 12:15am
Location: Queens, NYC I DON'T FUCKING CARE IF MANHATTEN IS CONSIDERED NYC!! I'M IN IT ASSHOLE!!!
Contact:

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by Soontir C'boath »

NPR wrote:2 Libya Air Force Jets In Malta, Pilots Seek Asylum
VALLETTA, Malta February 21, 2011, 12:49 pm ET
Two Libyan air force jets landed in Malta on Monday and their pilots asked for political asylum amid a bloody crackdown on anti-government protesters in Libya, a military source said.

The two Mirage jets landed at Malta International Airport shortly after two civilian helicopters landed carrying seven people who said they were French. A military source familiar with the situation said the passengers had left in such a hurry that only one had a passport.

The source, who insisted he not be identified further, said the jet pilots — both Libyan air force colonels — had communicated from the air that they wanted political asylum. They had left from a base near Tripoli and had flown low over Libyan airspace to avoid detection, the source said.

The aircraft remained at Malta's airport, away from the commercial area, while the pilots and helicopter passengers were being questioned by airport immigration officials, the source said.

After a week of protests, anti-government unrest spread Monday to the capital Tripoli with clashes in Tripoli's main square for the first time. European governments and oil and gas companies were evacuating their citizens.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Re: Gaddafi orders crackdown, leaves many dead

Post by KrauserKrauser »

All these third rate dictators are being taken down, I wonder when the big boys in Saudi are going to start sweating?

We've already seen rumblings in Iran but sadly I don't know enough about the area to make any other guesses about the existing regimes.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict
Post Reply