Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by Tribble »

Exactly what it says on the Tin:
Trump Abandons Trans-Pacific Partnership, Obama’s Signature Trade Deal

WASHINGTON — President Trump upended America’s traditional, bipartisan trade policy on Monday as he formally abandoned the ambitious, 12-nation Trans-Pacific Partnership brokered by his predecessor and declared an end to the era of multinational trade agreements that defined global economics for decades.
With the stroke of a pen on his first full weekday in office, Mr. Trump signaled that he plans to follow through on promises to take a more aggressive stance against foreign competitors as part of his “America First” approach. In doing so, he demonstrated that he would not follow old rules, effectively discarding longstanding Republican orthodoxy that expanding global trade was good for the world and America — and that the United States should help write the rules of international commerce.
Although the Trans-Pacific Partnership had not been approved by Congress, Mr. Trump’s decision to withdraw not only doomed former President Barack Obama’s signature trade achievement, but also carried broad geopolitical implications in a fast-growing region. The deal, which was to link a dozen nations from Canada and Chile to Australia and Japan in a complex web of trade rules, was sold as a way to permanently tie the United States to East Asia and create an economic bulwark against a rising China.
Instead, Mr. Trump said American workers would be protected against competition from low-wage countries like Vietnam and Malaysia, also parties to the deal.

But some in both parties worry that China will move to fill the economic vacuum as America looks inward, and will expand its sway over Asia and beyond.
Monday was a busy day for the new president. In addition to abandoning the trade deal, he ordered a freeze on federal government hiring, except for the military and other security agencies. He reinstituted a ban on federal funding for overseas family planning groups that assist or counsel women seeking abortions. He met with congressional, labor and business leaders. And he promised to cut up to 75 percent of federal regulations.
Mr. Trump’s decision to scrap the Trans-Pacific Partnership, or T.P.P., reversed a free-trade strategy adopted by presidents of both parties dating back to the Cold War, and aligned him more with the political left. When he told a meeting of union leaders at the White House on Monday that he had just terminated the pact, they broke into applause.
“We’re going to stop the ridiculous trade deals that have taken everybody out of our country and taken companies out of our country, and it’s going to be reversed,” Mr. Trump told them, saying that from now on, the United States would sign trade deals only with individual allies. “I think you’re going to have a lot of companies come back to our country.”
What Is TPP? Behind the Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Deal That Died
The enormous trade deal became a flashpoint in American politics this year, inflaming a debate over international commerce and lost jobs. The election of Donald J.Trump as president has essentially killed it.


Mr. Trump may also move quickly to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement. He is scheduling meetings with the leaders of Canada and Mexico, the two main partners in that pact, which was negotiated by President George Bush and pushed through Congress by President Bill Clinton. While Nafta has been a major driver of American trade for nearly two decades, it has long been divisive, with critics blaming it for lost jobs and lower wages.
But free-trade advocates said that in canceling the Pacific pact, Mr. Trump lost an agreement that had already renegotiated Nafta under more modern rules governing intellectual property, internet access and agriculture, since both Mexico and Canada were signatories. He also undercut Mr. Obama’s so-called pivot to Asia and, critics said, essentially ceded the field to China, which was not part of the agreement.
“There’s no doubt that this action will be seen as a huge, huge win for China,” Michael B. Froman, the trade representative who negotiated the pact for Mr. Obama, said in an interview. “For the Trump administration, after all this talk about being tough on China, for their first action to basically hand the keys to China and say we’re withdrawing from our leadership position in this region is geostrategically damaging.”
Some Republicans agreed, but only a few would publicly challenge the president. Senator John McCain of Arizona called the decision “a serious mistake” that would hurt America. “It will send a troubling signal of American disengagement in the Asia-Pacific region at a time we can least afford it,” he said in a statement.
The Obama administration negotiated the trade pact for nearly eight years. Speaker Paul D. Ryan and other congressional Republicans worked with Mr. Obama to pass legislation granting so-called fast-track authority to negotiate it over Democratic objections. But Mr. Obama never submitted the final agreement for approval amid vocal opposition.
The agreement, the largest regional trade accord ever, brought together the United States and 11 other nations in a free-trade zone for about 40 percent of the world’s economy. It was intended to lower tariffs while establishing rules for resolving trade disputes, setting patents and protecting intellectual property.
Obama officials argued that it benefited the United States by opening markets while giving up very little in return. In particular, it finally brought the United States and Japan, the world’s largest and third-largest economies, together in a free-trade pact.
Mr. Trump’s decision was crushing for Japan, where Prime Minister Shinzo Abe spent considerable political capital to get the agreement through Parliament, which ratified it Friday. Just hours before Mr. Trump dispensed with it, Mr. Abe told Parliament that Tokyo would lobby the new administration on the merits of the deal.
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Japan was the last to join the pact, which would give its manufacturers tariff-free access to export markets in the United States and other Asian countries, but would bring its automakers into competition with lower-wage countries like Mexico. Mr. Abe became a strong enthusiast after making politically painful concessions on agricultural imports that the United States had sought.
China, by contrast, welcomed Mr. Trump’s move, although its leaders will probably relish the moment quietly. Given Mr. Trump’s harsh attacks on China and his appointment of a leading China critic, Peter Navarro, to the new post of trade council director, Beijing is bracing for a potentially combative relationship.
Victor Shih, an expert on China’s political economy at the University of California, San Diego, said withdrawing from the T.P.P. would alter America’s image in the region. “The U.S. will be seen as an unreliable partner both economically and perhaps even in the security arena,” he said. “While some countries in Asia have no choice but to be close to the U.S., others may begin to look to China.”
China has already sought to capitalize by making a push to complete an alternative pact, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, which aims to unite 10 members of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations with Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand and India.
Australia’s trade minister, Steven Ciobo, said on Monday that other members of the trade pact were exploring whether to create a “T.P.P. minus one,” without the United States.
“The T.P.P. offers very material benefits for all parties that signed up for the agreement,” he said in an interview. “It would be a great shame to lose those benefits. Notwithstanding President Trump’s decision, there’s still a lot of merits to capturing those gains.”
If Mr. Trump scrambled coalitions overseas, he did so at home, too. Democrats and labor groups praised his move. James P. Hoffa, general president of the Teamsters union, said Mr. Trump had “taken the first step toward fixing 30 years of bad trade policies.” Lori Wallach, director of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch, said it would “bury the moldering corpse” of the Pacific deal, though she expressed concern about how Nafta would be renegotiated.

Some people emerging from the union meeting with Mr. Trump, who won surprising victories in Midwestern labor strongholds, expressed enthusiasm for both his trade action and his promise to build new roads, bridges and other infrastructure.
“We just had probably the most incredible meeting of our careers,” Sean McGarvey, president of North America’s Building Trades Unions, said. “We will work with him and his administration to help him implement his plans on infrastructure, trade and energy policy, so we really do put America back to work.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/us/p ... .html?_r=0


Free trade agreements can be beneficial when the economies, laws, standards of living etc between the nations are relatively similar.

This agreement was little more than a blatant corporate attempt at undermining national sovereignty and gutting the rights and wages of the lower-middle classes as much as possible. To be blunt, as a Canadian I have to say we owe Trump, big time.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Tribble wrote:This agreement was little more than a blatant corporate attempt at undermining national sovereignty and gutting the rights and wages of the lower-middle classes as much as possible. To be blunt, as a Canadian I have to say we owe Trump, big time.
Thank you for giving Trump credit where it is due.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Grumman wrote:
Tribble wrote:This agreement was little more than a blatant corporate attempt at undermining national sovereignty and gutting the rights and wages of the lower-middle classes as much as possible. To be blunt, as a Canadian I have to say we owe Trump, big time.
Thank you for giving Trump credit where it is due.
Well, if I were an American I wouldn't have voted for Trump for many reasons, but on this particular issue I do happen to agree with him 100%. The TPP was a bad deal for everyone who wasn't a large corporation and/or rich and I'm glad that he's effectively killed it.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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I am pretty sure I acknowledged that abandoning the TPP is of the few things I was confident Trump would do (as opposed to flip flopping on so many things I just can't get a feel for what he truly wants) and said earlier I had misgivings about the TPP. The sovereignty issue was a problem (most nations give some up in return for benefits trade agreements bring, but I felt we were ask to give up too much). The other issue, was that it strikes me as a geopolitical tool against China. Come on, a large free trade agreement without the largest trading nation * involving countries in that particular region.

So I also gave credit to Trump for that. Although I mock him for almost everything else. And its not going to stop me getting my Trump rooster either. :lol:

* trading nation is judged by the value imports + exports, and China over the last few years surpass the US in that regard.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Well, that's one bit of good news, I guess. As long as they don't try and replace it with something even worse.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Zaune wrote:Well, that's one bit of good news, I guess. As long as they don't try and replace it with something even worse.
My thoughts exactly. Glad that scrapping TPP is the one spot of bright news coming out of all the other horrible shit Trump has done or is trying to do since taking office, but I personally have little confidence that he won't try replacing it with something worse. For all of his anti-globalist rhetoric, it's pretty clear that Trump is an ascrupulous opportunist with heavy corporatist ties.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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It looks like he is already proposing worse deals. Seemingly forgetting that other countries can say no to whatever he proposes.

Also there is talk of the other countries in the TPP going ahead without the US.

Trump signals one-on-one NZ trade deal but English says his terms are 'unattractive'
United States President Donald Trump has dangled the possibility of a one-on-one trade deal, but a likely 30-day "out clause" if we "misbehave" is one reason the Government is cool on the idea.

Speaking to unionists after formally withdrawing from the 12-nation Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) trade pact, which included New Zealand, Trump said: "we are going to have trade, but we are going to have one on one".

"And if somebody misbehaves, we are going to send them a letter of termination, 30 days, and they will either straighten it out or we're gone, not one of these deals where you can't get out of them and it is a disaster."

Trump said the TPP was not the right way to conduct trade deals.

"So we are going back to those countries one on one and that will be beautiful."

But Prime Minister Bill English said Trump's out clause was "one aspect of it we would find unattractive" in a bilateral pact.

"If you ask me today I'd think there's a pretty low chance of that happening in a form that we'd find satisfactory, but we wouldn't want to rule it out, any more than we want to rule out other versions of progress on free trade with TPP or not."

He said Trump's withdrawal from the TPP was not unexpected, but it was a disappointment after all the hard work negotiating the deal.

New Zealand had always been interested in close trade ties with the US. It would remain an advocate of open trade, and other deals were in the pipeline in Asia, Europe and the Gulf.

He also suggested the remaining 11 TPP nations could go ahead but allow the US to join at a later date, perhaps after Trump leaves office.

Some had suggested the deals negotiated with the US under TPP should remain in the agreement. That would make it more likely the US would rejoin, but that was just one school of thought.

But English said an amended TPP and a bilateral deal would both be "quite a significant challenge" although a TPP without the US would still offer gains.

Ministers from the remaining TPP signatories - Brunei, Chile, Singapore, Australia, Canada, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, Peru and Vietnam - were expected to meet over the next few months to consider the next steps, and he had asked Trade Minister Todd McClay to prioritise that.

Japan had indicated it was keen to continue even if the US was not part of the deal.

English said the US had provided regional leadership in the past, and New Zealand had always keen to see trade and other interests with the US aligned, but it would be harder now.

Meanwhile, Trump said his approach would boost building and jobs in the US.

"We are going to use common sense and ... do it the way it's supposed to be done. We are going to stop the ridiculous trade deals that are taking everybody out of our country and taking companies out of our country, and it's going to be reversed."

Trump's press secretary Sean Spicer earlier said Trump believed bilateral deals were preferable, as it gave the US more power and flexibility.

He did not specifically mention New Zealand but implied the US was getting the raw end of the agreement while smaller countries like New Zealand, Vietnam and Brunei were getting a sweeter deal.

"When you enter into these multi-national agreements, you're allowing any country, no matter the size... to basically have the same stature as the United States in this agreement," Spicer said.

McClay said the agreement still had value without the US.

"For example, TPP is our first FTA with Japan, Canada, Mexico, and Peru. A number of TPP countries have expressed a strong commitment to the agreement, including Japan which has ratified."
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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I am pretty sure I acknowledged that abandoning the TPP is of the few things I was confident Trump would do (as opposed to flip flopping on so many things I just can't get a feel for what he truly wants) and said earlier I had misgivings about the TPP. The sovereignty issue was a problem (most nations give some up in return for benefits trade agreements bring, but I felt we were ask to give up too much). The other issue, was that it strikes me as a geopolitical tool against China. Come on, a large free trade agreement without the largest trading nation * involving countries in that particular region.

So I also gave credit to Trump for that. Although I mock him for almost everything else. And its not going to stop me getting my Trump rooster either.

* trading nation is judged by the value imports + exports, and China over the last few years surpass the US in that regard.
Trading with China already cost millions of jobs and giving them far greater access to our markets would be an even bigger disaster... unless you are a large corporation and/or rich. No thank you.
It looks like he is already proposing worse deals. Seemingly forgetting that other countries can say no to whatever he proposes.
If Trump doesn't manage to create a single trade-agreement during his presidency, that's still be better for Americans than if they signed up for the TPP. And I don't see how his proposals are worse for the USA. Wow an American president arguing for trade deals that benefit America first, how evilz he must be!

If other countries sign up to the TPP, that's our problem. I'm hoping the process has been derailed enough that they will give up and that may very well happen given the Japanese PM's remarks. Unfortunately my country's PM is a spineless tool that may end up signing something else no matter how bad it is, but I can't hold that against Trump.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Grumman wrote:
Tribble wrote:This agreement was little more than a blatant corporate attempt at undermining national sovereignty and gutting the rights and wages of the lower-middle classes as much as possible. To be blunt, as a Canadian I have to say we owe Trump, big time.
Thank you for giving Trump credit where it is due.
As Congress refused to ratify the TPP, Trump's executive action was mere political theatre aimed at showing him Doing Something.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Tribble wrote: If Trump doesn't manage to create a single trade-agreement during his presidency, that's still be better for Americans than if they signed up for the TPP.
True
And I don't see how his proposals are worse for the USA. Wow an American president arguing for trade deals that benefit America first, how evilz he must be!
Is a free trade deal that can be terminated with 30 days notice should the Trump administration not like what the other country is doing a good deal for the US ?

The uncertainty around the termination option seems like it would be very worrying. How long does it take for goods to reach the US by sea from various countries ?
If it takes longer to ship the goods than the 30 day window, I can see countries not exporting to the US because they can't know if the free trade deal will still be in place when the goods arrive. Better to trade somewhere with predictable costs.
If other countries sign up to the TPP, that's our problem. I'm hoping the process has been derailed enough that they will give up and that may very well happen given the Japanese PM's remarks. Unfortunately my country's PM is a spineless tool that may end up signing something else no matter how bad it is, but I can't hold that against Trump.
From memory, wasn't it the US that forced the negotiations on the TPP to end ?

If negotiations reopen, there is hope the TPP might become a good deal for the countries involved. Not much hope, but some.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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The intellectual property provisions of the TPP alone warranted burning the entire mess to the waterline. I hardly think that that's what Trump had in mind here, but a stopped toupé is right twice a day.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:
Grumman wrote:
Tribble wrote:This agreement was little more than a blatant corporate attempt at undermining national sovereignty and gutting the rights and wages of the lower-middle classes as much as possible. To be blunt, as a Canadian I have to say we owe Trump, big time.
Thank you for giving Trump credit where it is due.
As Congress refused to ratify the TPP, Trump's executive action was mere political theatre aimed at showing him Doing Something.
Actually, Congress did not ratify the TPP because they realised they had run out of time despite Obama's (and mainstream Democrats and Republicans) best efforts at fast-tracking the process. They realised there was little point in going forward as both Trump and Clinton (after reversing her position due to Sanders) would not support it.

Trump could have just as easily back-tracked on this and allowed the ratification to go forward. In fact, it would have been in the best interests of his party (not to mention all his rich buddies) had he done so. He didn't, and credit needs to be given where its due, no matter how much I dislike him.
Is a free trade deal that can be terminated with 30 days notice should the Trump administration not like what the other country is doing a good deal for the US ?

The uncertainty around the termination option seems like it would be very worrying. How long does it take for goods to reach the US by sea from various countries ?
If it takes longer to ship the goods than the 30 day window, I can see countries not exporting to the US because they can't know if the free trade deal will still be in place when the goods arrive. Better to trade somewhere with predictable costs.
Conceded, though this defaults back to "even if Trump doesn't make a single trade agreement throughout his entire presidency that's still better for the American people than signing up to the TPP".
The intellectual property provisions of the TPP alone warranted burning the entire mess to the waterline. I hardly think that that's what Trump had in mind here, but a stopped toupé is right twice a day.
Agreed, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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And on a related note Canada now owes Trump even more as he just re-instated the Keystone Pipeline:
U.S. President Donald Trump has signed executive orders to move forward on construction of two controversial oil pipelines that impact Canada, giving his OK to the Keystone XL and Dakota Access projects.
Keystone XL will be approved 'in the first week': Expert
Trump presidency brings uncertainty for markets, economy in 2017
Speaking in the Oval Office in the White House as he signed the orders, Trump said that "we are going to renegotiate some of the terms" of TransCanada's Keystone XL project.  "And if they like, we will see if we can get that pipeline built — a lot of jobs, 28,000 jobs, great construction jobs."

Trump signed an order on the Dakota Access Pipeline, saying it is also subject to terms and conditions "to be negotiated by us."

Hundreds of kilometres of pipe intended for the Keystone XL pipeline are shown in a yard in Gascoyne, N.D., in this April 2015 photo. The pipeline was rejected by former U.S. president Barack Obama, but new President Donald Trump has signed an executive order to move it forward. (Alex Panetta/Canadian Press)
The new U.S. president also said that if pipelines are built in the United States, they should use U.S. steel. 
"From now we are going to start making pipelines in the United States," Trump said 
Shares of Calgary-based pipeline company TransCanada traded higher on word of the news. On the TSX, shares of the company were up more than two per cent, rising $1.47 to $64 in late morning trading.
The proposed Keystone XL pipeline was blocked by former U.S. president Barack Obama in late 2015, when he said it would have undercut U.S. efforts to clinch a global climate change deal that was a centrepiece of his environmental legacy.

The proposed 1,900-kilometre pipeline would run from Hardisty, Alta., to Steele City, Neb. The U.S. government needed to approve the pipeline because it crossed the border.

Speaking at a federal cabinet retreat in Calgary prior to Trump signing the executive orders, Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr said the  Keystone XL project would mean 4,500 construction jobs for Canada, adding that all approvals are in place on the Canadian side for the pipeline.
"We have been supportive of this since the day we were sworn into government," Carr said. "We believe it's a good project for both Canada and the United States."
Chris Bloomer, the president and CEO of the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, said the group was pleased with the move to approve Keystone XL.
"The United States is a key trading partner and major existing market for Canadian oil and gas," Bloomer said in a statement.
"While recent pipeline approvals will ensure our energy moves to tidewater, we must continue to maintain the long-standing, strong relationship that we have with our neighbours to the south. All pipeline projects in Canada remain critically important to North America's energy interests," he said.



On the Dakota pipeline, the U.S. Army decided last year to explore alternate routes for it after the Standing Rock Sioux tribe and its supporters said the pipeline threatened drinking water and Native American cultural sites.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-k ... -1.3949629

So Trump has already done more for Canada in two days than Obama did in his entire administration... that's sad :(

And yes, I am well aware that the Albertan tar sands are not the cleanest type of oil out there (though IIRC still better than California heavy crude). However I would still prefer developing them and getting them to market over getting oil from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Russia, etc. At least Alberta has a decent enough human rights record in comparison and is now starting to implement environmental laws to limit the effects.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Tribble wrote:
Trading with China already cost millions of jobs and giving them far greater access to our markets would be an even bigger disaster... unless you are a large corporation and/or rich. No thank you.
You misunderstood the purpose of my statement. It isn't to say the TPP was going to help the US or in your case Canada by denying China access to your markets, since the establishment politicians who drafted it are quite corporatist. Its to create a trade agreement without China so they can show the PRC that its the US which "sets the rules," not China. Obama already made a big show about this "setting the rules," bit in numerous speeches.

When a country gets economically powerful, it would naturally want the rules to better look after its interest. When organisations like the IMF lends money to a poor country, they also demand reforms, which just happens to match how the liberal democracies like how to run their economy. When China lends money, it only cares that you can pay back and for the most part leaves that country to its own devices. Now lets take it to the next step.

China pointed out it contributes more to the IMF or the World bank now and would like a Chinese person at the head. It was rebuffed by the US continuously, which prompted the Chinese to set up their own rival lending bank, the AIIB. Which then prompted the US to go behind the Chinese and tell ask its allies not to join this IMF /world bank rival, and backfired spectacularly for the US. Imagine a worse case scenario that the AIIB eventually gets most business in the Asia region, then most countries would be following the rules of how China likes it. The reverse scenario is, if the IMF continues to get most business, most countries would be required to make the reforms to get the loans. In this case and the TPP its more about "setting the rules" of the economic order. Rules of course which benefits US corporations where they can potentially sue governments for loss of profits.

*********************************************
On another note, pointing out job losses to China is kind of missing the point, because its going to happen without China anyway. To elaborate China is attempting to transition from manufacturing to services economy. Fun fact, its trade to GDP ratio is 20.2%. Contrast this to India at 19.4%, Japan at 17%, US at 13% and Germany at 50%.

China is already outsourcing some cheap labour to either its western regions which are still cheaper, Africa or cheaper Asian countries like Vietnam. Its also furiously adopted automation processes to cut the labour for manufacturing. What this means for North America is, you're going to lose jobs to some other lower wage country (until they like China start becoming richer and transition) or to automation.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by Tribble »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Tribble wrote:
Trading with China already cost millions of jobs and giving them far greater access to our markets would be an even bigger disaster... unless you are a large corporation and/or rich. No thank you.
You misunderstood the purpose of my statement. It isn't to say the TPP was going to help the US or in your case Canada by denying China access to your markets, since the establishment politicians who drafted it are quite corporatist. Its to create a trade agreement without China so they can show the PRC that its the US which "sets the rules," not China. Obama already made a big show about this "setting the rules," bit in numerous speeches.

When a country gets economically powerful, it would naturally want the rules to better look after its interest. When organisations like the IMF lends money to a poor country, they also demand reforms, which just happens to match how the liberal democracies like how to run their economy. When China lends money, it only cares that you can pay back and for the most part leaves that country to its own devices. Now lets take it to the next step.

China pointed out it contributes more to the IMF or the World bank now and would like a Chinese person at the head. It was rebuffed by the US continuously, which prompted the Chinese to set up their own rival lending bank, the AIIB. Which then prompted the US to go behind the Chinese and tell ask its allies not to join this IMF /world bank rival, and backfired spectacularly for the US. Imagine a worse case scenario that the AIIB eventually gets most business in the Asia region, then most countries would be following the rules of how China likes it. The reverse scenario is, if the IMF continues to get most business, most countries would be required to make the reforms to get the loans. In this case and the TPP its more about "setting the rules" of the economic order. Rules of course which benefits US corporations where they can potentially sue governments for loss of profits.
Sorry, I did miss your point there.
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On another note, pointing out job losses to China is kind of missing the point, because its going to happen without China anyway. To elaborate China is attempting to transition from manufacturing to services economy. Fun fact, its trade to GDP ratio is 20.2%. Contrast this to India at 19.4%, Japan at 17%, US at 13% and Germany at 50%.

China is already outsourcing some cheap labour to either its western regions which are still cheaper, Africa or cheaper Asian countries like Vietnam. Its also furiously adopted automation processes to cut the labour for manufacturing. What this means for North America is, you're going to lose jobs to some other lower wage country (until they like China start becoming richer and transition) or to automation.
So long as we have a ruling class whose goal is to maximise profit and strip the lower classes of as much wealth / influence / rights as possible, absolutely. Does that mean I should support "Free-Trade" agreements which are obviously designed from the outset to accelerate this trend? I don't think so.

Automation is kind of in its own category, and is by far the greatest game-changer. Kinda needs to be in its own thread really since it will inevitably replace most if not all of human labour (the only question is when, not if). And it will almost certainly be in control of the wealthiest in society. When the rich no longer have a real use for the masses, what happens then?
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by SolarpunkFan »

corporatist
I believe you mean "plutocratic", no need to mince words here. :P

As for the topic at hand: yeah, this is an example of a stopped clock moment. I doubt I'll be seeing many more from this administration. :banghead:
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Broken clock ...something...something...twice a day. Good for Trump in this one instance.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by mr friendly guy »

Tribble wrote:
Sorry, I did miss your point there.
No biggie. Unless you have an interest in the geopolitical games countries like to play, the context might not be obvious.
*********************************************
So long as we have a ruling class whose goal is to maximise profit and strip the lower classes of as much wealth / influence / rights as possible, absolutely. Does that mean I should support "Free-Trade" agreements which are obviously designed from the outset to accelerate this trend? I don't think so.

Automation is kind of in its own category, and is by far the greatest game-changer. Kinda needs to be in its own thread really since it will inevitably replace most if not all of human labour (the only question is when, not if). And it will almost certainly be in control of the wealthiest in society. When the rich no longer have a real use for the masses, what happens then?
What I am trying to say is, it seems your beef is with "free trade in general" rather than "free trade with China specifically". Especially since China itself is now outsourcing the cheaper labour in response to pressure from free trade. In my own country, some of the cheaper stuff of items I was planning to buy are made in Vietnam or India, and more higher end stuff are made in China. :D Obviously this is just an example of what's happening and not indicative by itself of what is happening in regards to other goods.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by Tribble »

No biggie. Unless you have an interest in the geopolitical games countries like to play, the context might not be obvious.
To be fair, my focus in this case was more on "how cancelling the TPP is good for workers" and not "how the TPP was meant to cement American corporate hegemony in Asia".
What I am trying to say is, it seems your beef is with "free trade in general" rather than "free trade with China specifically". Especially since China itself is now outsourcing the cheaper labour in response to pressure from free trade. In my own country, some of the cheaper stuff of items I was planning to buy are made in Vietnam or India, and more higher end stuff are made in China. Obviously this is just an example of what's happening and not indicative by itself of what is happening in regards to other goods.
Given the way that "free-trade" agreements tend to work out, yes. In that context I would say I'm more of a supporter of "fair trade" over "free-trade".

China is only a part of picture... but it is a part nevertheless and I feel that it was a mistake in the long run to open up trade-agreements with them, at least from a Canadian workforce perspective.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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Sigh... I'm a little worried that he's going to have the anti-trade Bernie or Bust idiots eating out of his hand with this. The last thing we need is for that division to continue.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by mr friendly guy »

Tribble wrote: Given the way that "free-trade" agreements tend to work out, yes. In that context I would say I'm more of a supporter of "fair trade" over "free-trade".

China is only a part of picture... but it is a part nevertheless and I feel that it was a mistake in the long run to open up trade-agreements with them, at least from a Canadian workforce perspective.
Whether free trade with China overall is better needs its own thread.

My intuition (and I could be wrong) is that
a. its overall a benefit to the world in terms of people out of poverty

b. its still a net benefit in my country despite potential lost in manufacturing jobs because of

i) resources boom leading to a trade surplus with China and jobs in the mining industry

ii) cheaper goods (especially since I work in services like most Australians)

iii) Goods from Chinese companies being popular. I am not just talking about cheap production for some non Chinese company, I am talking about Chinese companies having popular products among consumers - eg Lenovo the largest PC maker, DJI which dominates the US civilian drone market etc. Arguable these Chinese companies would not be where they are if "free trade" didn't give China a leg up in industrialisation.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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The problem with any free trade agreement is there is no work plan to seriously help those people transmit to a different economy.

How do you expect those working in manufacturing to jump to the service sector without any new education and training? Especially if we are talking about service sectors that would pay as well as their old jobs?

Some sectors, like Hollywood is benefiting more from China because the Chinese are now consuming Hollywood movies like no tomorrow. However, not all sectors will scale accordingly in labour needs to higher profitability.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Sigh... I'm a little worried that he's going to have the anti-trade Bernie or Bust idiots eating out of his hand with this. The last thing we need is for that division to continue.
If you care so much about this division in the left, then why don't you abandon your position to end it?
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Grumman wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Sigh... I'm a little worried that he's going to have the anti-trade Bernie or Bust idiots eating out of his hand with this. The last thing we need is for that division to continue.
If you care so much about this division in the left, then why don't you abandon your position to end it?
What exactly do you think my position is? I was a Bernie supporter who voted Hillary in the general election. That's about as pro-compromise as one can get on this subject.
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Re: Trump Abandons Trans Pacific Partnership

Post by Flagg »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Grumman wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Sigh... I'm a little worried that he's going to have the anti-trade Bernie or Bust idiots eating out of his hand with this. The last thing we need is for that division to continue.
If you care so much about this division in the left, then why don't you abandon your position to end it?
What exactly do you think my position is? I was a Bernie supporter who voted Hillary in the general election. That's about as pro-compromise as one can get on this subject.
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