SC Governor calls for removal of Confederate flag

[Elheru Aran]

I never understood why the battle flag is considered the "Confederate Flag." I assume its use with white-supremacy groups in the mid-1900s had something to do with its popularity and, I don't care what you say, displaying it as anything more than a relic essentially screams "I'm backasswards."

As much as I think remembering even the terrible parts of our history is important, I could go my whole life without ever seeing a Rebel Flag again and not feel any poorer for it.

The general rationale is that it's a bit more iconic and representative than the original state flag of the South, which was basically a block of stars and a couple of red and white bars. Not *terribly* different from the original US flag. And there's the whole 'the South will rise again' bit, hence war, hence 'battle flag'... *shrugs* Nobody ever said it was particularly logical, did they?

[TheFeniX]

The general rationale is that it's a bit more iconic and representative than the original state flag of the South, which was basically a block of stars and a couple of red and white bars. Not *terribly* different from the original US flag. And there's the whole 'the South will rise again' bit, hence war, hence 'battle flag'... *shrugs* Nobody ever said it was particularly logical, did they?

That I get, what I don't get is the general assumption by everyone that the flag flying at the capitol is the "Confederate Flag." Yea, it's a shitty part of U.S. history, but get it together: know your history. Maybe take this time to educate a few people.

And really, I think more of the popularity of the flag (racist imagery aside, I do think it's a cool design) has to do with it becoming an icon against federal meddling with segregation. From there it became much more visible and easier for shitfucks to slap on their cars.... also, it looks cooler than the actual confederate flag... so point taken.

[cmdrjones]

I'm pleasantly surprised how all these prominent Republicans are joining in on this - which indicates that even they realize there's a limit to how far to the right you need to go in order to court redneck voters during the primaries.

On the other hand... it's 2015. And we're actually still debating this? Why is this still a thing?

Also, given the uptick in white supremacy groups and websites these days (many of which are hosted in the US), should we perhaps consider taking a cue from Germany and sort of just... you know, putting a bit more restrictions on freedom of expression when it comes to groups who revel in our past sins? Or is that just too unpatriotic and slippery-slopish for America?

What Grumman said.... do you REALLY think using the power of the state to suppress individual rights, even speech you don't like will work out well for you? What if the 70% christians in the US want to start gagging atheist speech? Not so nice once the shoe is on the other foot eh?

AS one of the Dirty, traitorous Unreconstructed rebs out there... I think i can provide vital perspective on this as someone who was raised to love the south and its culture and then went on to be exposed to all sorts of other points of view on the subject.

Aside from all of the back and forth we've had on other threads about this and that aspect of slavery and states rights, and whether of not Lee or the other generals were 'traitors' or 'patriots' (which depends on where you're standing I suppose, a lot of Brits may think Washington was a traitor and Arnold was a hero too), mark you well these words:
As attempts mount to suppress a culture, especially from those outside that culture, resistance will mount.
I have spent a lot of time with the Dakota people and they reject to this day the notion that their society was in any way inferior to 'white' culture and even after being absolutely conquered for over 150+ years, they aren't sitting around and taking it either. If you expect the white "crackers" of the south to put up with ever increasing attacks like this (and from their perspective that's exactly what they are) then I hope you don't act surprised when this kind of shit escalates and escalates. Take my advice: LET IT GO.
If they choose to take down the flag someday, they will. Let them 'evolve' at their own pace, if that makes you feel better. The more SJW shit you pile on, the more resistance you'll get.

[FSTargetDrone]

They can start by ejecting Lee's statue from Gettysburg.

Unless what I've read of Lee is inaccurate, I don't agree with that. If he was a voice in favour of ex-Confederates accepting their defeat gracefully, he's a good example for these Confederacy-loving idiots to follow.

Unless what I've read of Lee is inaccurate, I don't agree with that. If he was a voice in favour of ex-Confederates accepting their defeat gracefully, he's a good example for these Confederacy-loving idiots to follow.

He was against the whole thing from the beginning the way I understand it. He served his state, but much preferred a peaceful solution.

If Lee was so interested in a peaceful solution, he sure went about it in an odd way. He resigned from the Union Army and accepted a leadership position with the rebellion, leading armies against his former country, resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead. If he was so against it, he should have retired entirely, not lead men in battle for an illegal rebellion. He should have denounced secession and the resulting war more strongly. The moment he took up arms against the US he became as much an enemy to it as any other.

I don't particularly care about his feelings for his precious Virginia and his genteel ways during and after the war. Virginia was not more important than the Union. No state was or is. At the very least, he, Davis and the rest of the leaders of that failed endeavor belonged in prison, not memorialized in statue.

[cmdrjones]

They can start by ejecting Lee's statue from Gettysburg.

Unless what I've read of Lee is inaccurate, I don't agree with that. If he was a voice in favour of ex-Confederates accepting their defeat gracefully, he's a good example for these Confederacy-loving idiots to follow.

Unless what I've read of Lee is inaccurate, I don't agree with that. If he was a voice in favour of ex-Confederates accepting their defeat gracefully, he's a good example for these Confederacy-loving idiots to follow.

He was against the whole thing from the beginning the way I understand it. He served his state, but much preferred a peaceful solution.

If Lee was so interested in a peaceful solution, he sure went about it in an odd way. He resigned from the Union Army and accepted a leadership position with the rebellion, leading armies against his former country, resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead. If he was so against it, he should have retired entirely, not lead men in battle for an illegal rebellion. He should have denounced secession and the resulting war more strongly. The moment he took up arms against the US he became as much an enemy to it as any other.

I don't particularly care about his feelings for his precious Virginia and his genteel ways during and after the war. Virginia was not more important than the Union. No state was or is. At the very least, he, Davis and the rest of the leaders of that failed endeavor belonged in prison, not memorialized in statue.

You say all that like it's a fact or something....
let me ask you a few questions:
#1 Do you live in a homogenous region or state?
#2 Do you know any of your neighbors?
#3 have you ever been in uniform, or sworn to serve others at great personal sacrifice and risk?
#4 If you answered yes to both of the first three questions, could you imagine joining an armed force whose objective was to invade, conquer and occupy your home town/region and possibly kill your own neighbors while doing so?
#5 if you cannot answer yes to questions #1, #2, and #3 can you imagine that there are people who can?
#6 if you imagine a person who DOES answer yes to #1, #2 and #3 can you see why they might NOT go along with #4 despite what YOU might think of their society from a comfortable 150+ year difference?

Bonus questions:
#7 Is global warming real?
#8 Is global warming caused by burning fossil fuels?
#9 does electricity come from 100% renewable resources NOT requiring inputs from fossil fuels?
#11 would you resist if someone tried to ban electricity from your life on the grounds that you are an asshole for using it?
#12 would you be terribly upset if in 2175 people referred to YOU as a traitorous fucktard because you used electricity and ruined their ecosystem?

[Borgholio]

Snowball continues. Sears, Ebay and Amazon are removing Confederate items from their shelves.

[The Romulan Republic]

Good. Maybe we can finally kill the poisonous nostalgia for one of the ugliest aspects of American history, or at least relegate it to the fringe.

[Beowulf]

Also, given the uptick in white supremacy groups and websites these days (many of which are hosted in the US), should we perhaps consider taking a cue from Germany and sort of just... you know, putting a bit more restrictions on freedom of expression when it comes to groups who revel in our past sins? Or is that just too unpatriotic and slippery-slopish for America?

Why do you think restrictions on speech will be used against racists, rather than by the powerful against the weak?

[Metahive]

I don't particularly care about his feelings for his precious Virginia and his genteel ways during and after the war. Virginia was not more important than the Union. No state was or is. At the very least, he, Davis and the rest of the leaders of that failed endeavor belonged in prison, not memorialized in statue.

The best thing is that Lee throwing his hat in with the rebels resulted in Virginia becoming the most devastated of the rebel states, simply because people had to fight so hard over it. Sweet, sweet poetic justice.

What Grumman said.... do you REALLY think using the power of the state to suppress individual rights, even speech you don't like will work out well for you? What if the 70% christians in the US want to start gagging atheist speech? Not so nice once the shoe is on the other foot eh?

I don't know, Germany's faring quite well with all the Nazi paraphernalia outlawed and I can still utter atheist speech in public. I guess that's american exceptionalism at work again, huh?

ETA:
Not to mention that PEGIDA is still able to spout their racist crap as much as they want. Slippery slope is still a logical fallacy.

[cmdrjones]

I don't particularly care about his feelings for his precious Virginia and his genteel ways during and after the war. Virginia was not more important than the Union. No state was or is. At the very least, he, Davis and the rest of the leaders of that failed endeavor belonged in prison, not memorialized in statue.

The best thing is that Lee throwing his hat in with the rebels resulted in Virginia becoming the most devastated of the rebel states, simply because people had to fight so hard over it. Sweet, sweet poetic justice.

What Grumman said.... do you REALLY think using the power of the state to suppress individual rights, even speech you don't like will work out well for you? What if the 70% christians in the US want to start gagging atheist speech? Not so nice once the shoe is on the other foot eh?

I don't know, Germany's faring quite well with all the Nazi paraphernalia outlawed and I can still utter atheist speech in public. I guess that's american exceptionalism at work again, huh?

ETA:
Not to mention that PEGIDA is still able to spout their racist crap as much as they want. Slippery slope is still a logical fallacy.

Yeah well, free speech that the powerful don't like is hate speech, right?

And the slippery slope fallacy would apply if the only evidence I had was the stringing together of 'possibly' related events and claiming A leads to B leads to C.... I am claiming that continued pressure of this kind will cause a backlash... do I have any evidence of this?

I give you exhibit A: Dylan Roof

Second you analogy of nazi germany and the current german laws is flawed because the Confederate states and nazi germany were two very very different things oh and

Exhibit B:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/j ... olf-hitler

[Grumman]

What Grumman said.... do you REALLY think using the power of the state to suppress individual rights, even speech you don't like will work out well for you? What if the 70% christians in the US want to start gagging atheist speech? Not so nice once the shoe is on the other foot eh?

I don't know, Germany's faring quite well with all the Nazi paraphernalia outlawed and I can still utter atheist speech in public. I guess that's american exceptionalism at work again, huh?

Germany banned River Raid, for fuck's sake. That's not a country with a healthy relationship with censorship.

[Knife]

Aside from all of the back and forth we've had on other threads about this and that aspect of slavery and states rights, and whether of not Lee or the other generals were 'traitors' or 'patriots' (which depends on where you're standing I suppose, a lot of Brits may think Washington was a traitor and Arnold was a hero too), mark you well these words:
As attempts mount to suppress a culture, especially from those outside that culture, resistance will mount.
I have spent a lot of time with the Dakota people and they reject to this day the notion that their society was in any way inferior to 'white' culture and even after being absolutely conquered for over 150+ years, they aren't sitting around and taking it either. If you expect the white "crackers" of the south to put up with ever increasing attacks like this (and from their perspective that's exactly what they are) then I hope you don't act surprised when this kind of shit escalates and escalates. Take my advice: LET IT GO.
If they choose to take down the flag someday, they will. Let them 'evolve' at their own pace, if that makes you feel better. The more SJW shit you pile on, the more resistance you'll get.

That's rather myopic considering racists hillbillies are NOT the only people living in South Carolina. Of the roughly four and a half million people in South Carolina, around one and a half million are black and another rough half million other minorities who have lived there their whole life. No where in the history of the world has a culture been able to bottle itself up and preserve itself forever, white southern culture is no different. The diversity of the place, as well as the changing culture of the surrounding region and the changing demographics for the nation will impose a change. Old white people won't like it but they slowly die off and new generations of people are more tolerant. That's the way it works.

[cmdrjones]

Aside from all of the back and forth we've had on other threads about this and that aspect of slavery and states rights, and whether of not Lee or the other generals were 'traitors' or 'patriots' (which depends on where you're standing I suppose, a lot of Brits may think Washington was a traitor and Arnold was a hero too), mark you well these words:
As attempts mount to suppress a culture, especially from those outside that culture, resistance will mount.
I have spent a lot of time with the Dakota people and they reject to this day the notion that their society was in any way inferior to 'white' culture and even after being absolutely conquered for over 150+ years, they aren't sitting around and taking it either. If you expect the white "crackers" of the south to put up with ever increasing attacks like this (and from their perspective that's exactly what they are) then I hope you don't act surprised when this kind of shit escalates and escalates. Take my advice: LET IT GO.
If they choose to take down the flag someday, they will. Let them 'evolve' at their own pace, if that makes you feel better. The more SJW shit you pile on, the more resistance you'll get.

That's rather myopic considering racists hillbillies are NOT the only people living in South Carolina. Of the roughly four and a half million people in South Carolina, around one and a half million are black and another rough half million other minorities who have lived there their whole life. No where in the history of the world has a culture been able to bottle itself up and preserve itself forever, white southern culture is no different. The diversity of the place, as well as the changing culture of the surrounding region and the changing demographics for the nation will impose a change. Old white people won't like it but they slowly die off and new generations of people are more tolerant. That's the way it works.

Perhaps..

Prior to Amazon’s announcement, Vanity Fair reported that sales of the Confederate battle flag went up by 3,620 percent on Amazon.

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2015/06/23/ ... rchandise/

Perhaps not....

PS For your regularly scheduled dose of democratic hypocrisy:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/06 ... flag-pins/

[Metahive]

Germany banned River Raid, for fuck's sake. That's not a country with a healthy relationship with censorship.

Please do your research before spouting off, River Raid was indexed, which means shops were not allowed to openly advertise for it or sell it to minors, it was not banned.

While I'm not overly enarmored with thr BPjS, this is rather pathetic an example to argue against the ban of Nazi stuff.

Do you know why this is even possible in Germany? Because video games are considered children's toys. Yeah, sucks and is annyoing, but not a result of banning nazi stuff.

Yeah well, free speech that the powerful don't like is hate speech, right?

Stupid slogan spouted by stupid shithead is stupid shithead slogan, right?

And the slippery slope fallacy would apply if the only evidence I had was the stringing together of 'possibly' related events and claiming A leads to B leads to C.... I am claiming that continued pressure of this kind will cause a backlash... do I have any evidence of this?


I give you exhibit A: Dylan Roof

Snickers bring trouble make, why is the refrigerator alive?

Answer: no horse is a submarine.

There, I'm responding in exactly the same well-thought out, coherent and sensible manner as you. Or shorter:
ENGLISH, MOTHERFUCKER! DO YOU SPEAK IT?

Second you analogy of nazi germany and the current german laws is flawed because the Confederate states and nazi germany were two very very different things oh and

One was a state of white racist supremacists that caused suffering and mayhem, the other was Nazi Germany?

[Channel72]

Also, given the uptick in white supremacy groups and websites these days (many of which are hosted in the US), should we perhaps consider taking a cue from Germany and sort of just... you know, putting a bit more restrictions on freedom of expression when it comes to groups who revel in our past sins? Or is that just too unpatriotic and slippery-slopish for America?

Why do you think restrictions on speech will be used against racists, rather than by the powerful against the weak?

Please. Powerful people don't need speech restrictions to oppress you. Just money and lawyers. The powerful can already oppress you just fine if they want to.

The point of the speech restrictions would be, per Germany, to acknowledge the past sins committed, and make a gesture of amends and reconciliation to the affected people. Outlawing the Confederate Flag and other iconography, or restricting associated hate speech, sends an important and positive message of reconciliation to African Americans. Just as, with Germany, outlawing Holocaust denial and Nazi paraphernalia sends a message of reconciliation to Jews.

[The Romulan Republic]

Outlawing the Confederate flag would, I assume, be a violation of the First Amendment.

And personally, I'm not one for banning unpleasant historical imagery. That said, the Confederate flag is a despicable symbol of an evil state.

[Metahive]

At the very least ban this rebel shit from being flown by state governments on their buildings. The CSA was a failure and went down in flames and the modern South is way too wussy to ever try again anyway, so time to put that stuff in the dustbin of history.

[Elheru Aran]

To be explicit: The only speech, act, or writing outright prohibited under the First Amendment is that which directly incites violence or harm to others. Up to that point, you can do, say, and write absolutely anything you like in the United States.

Unpleasant? Frequently. Necessary? Questionable. But it's rarely done us wrong... from a certain point of view.

Now on the other hand, prohibiting government buildings and functions from displaying flags other than the state's and country's flags and other 'official' flags, I could be on board with. Certainly it's in bad taste to officially display the flag of a failed revolt; if posting the Ten Commandments in a courthouse can be considered a government endorsement of faith, posting a flag constitutes the same thing.

[The Romulan Republic]

At the very least ban this rebel shit from being flown by state governments on their buildings. The CSA was a failure and went down in flames and the modern South is way too wussy to ever try again anyway, so time to put that stuff in the dustbin of history.

Agreed that a Confederate flag should never, ever be on a government building.

[Elheru Aran]

At the very least ban this rebel shit from being flown by state governments on their buildings. The CSA was a failure and went down in flames and the modern South is way too wussy to ever try again anyway, so time to put that stuff in the dustbin of history.

Agreed that a Confederate flag should never, ever be on a government building.

What about memorials? (which was the excuse SC ended up with back in the 90s or was it the early 00's?... stick it on a Confederate memorial right next to the capitol building)

Arguably if a memorial commemorates one side of a conflict, it should be permitted to exhibit representative items of that party...

EDIT: Then, of course, one runs into the question of whether one should actually commemorate a unsuccessful and morally wrong rebellion against the United States, but plenty of people have apparently thought it's OK, so we are stuck with a massive weight of bronze and stone scattered across much of the South...

[The Romulan Republic]

Hmm... tough call.

I'd still rather not see that flag up though.

[Metahive]

Easy solution, force them fly both the union and the rebel flag but the rebel flag only at half mast because they were the defeated ones. They can have as many memorials to their shame as they want this way.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah. Memorials are generally IIRC municipal, state, or Federal property; tomb memorials are typically the only exception. I can't think of a whole lot of memorials that are owned and administered by private entities. So there's a justification, IMO, for regulating flags that can be displayed at memorials.

Of course, I can see a run of memorials throughout a bunch of little and not-so-little towns in the South being sold hastily to the nearest Sons of the Confederate Veterans or whatever in order to squirt out from under such regulations...

[Metahive]

Well, that would however mean that private persons had to cough up the dough for maintenance of them. Then tie some legislation to it that states can't support these memorials either directly or indirectly without those memorials also being subjected to the new federal flag bearing rules...

ETA:
O yeah, and the rebel flag shown must actually be the the Bloodstained Banner, not the confederate navy jack or any battle flags from individual military units. Only the former was actually the official flag of the rebel states after all.

[Zaune]

What about memorials? (which was the excuse SC ended up with back in the 90s or was it the early 00's?... stick it on a Confederate memorial right next to the capitol building)

I suggest asking the Germans for advice. They must manage to commemorate their war dead while still adhering to the swastika ban.