Uprising in Libya

[Metahive]

Is the military incompetence of the rebellion, ah, mitigate-able? How much of the problem is incompetent leadership and how much is simply no leadership, a lack of sufficient time and coordination to resolve the question of "who is in charge here?"

A lot of revolutions started out rather... brainless, in terms of figures who could coordinate their military operations.

The rebel army is largely composed of kids who have never gone through any training before, and just want to enjoy their moments of manhood. What more do we expect? We might get better results if we strap explosives to them and tell them to run towards the target.

I'd like to personally thank you for this wholly unwarranted bit of condescending cynicism. It's one thing to comment on the Rebel's lack of military prowess but another to paint their actions as being motvated by juvenile machismo and indulging in something I would at this point regard as racist spite by "subtly" remarking that Arabs are only good for suicide bombing. Thank you.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

And, again, this is a natural phase for a revolution to go through- a real revolution, as opposed to a glorified coup led by a vanguard party or disaffected elements of the existing government. Remember that it's only been a month since they were at the rioters-with-cobblestones level.

So the question is: is there any sign of a leadership cadre coming out, a Libyan equivalent of a functioning Continental Congress establishing itself?

There is a provisional government that has established itself in Benghazi. Their representatives are meeting with the international community in Europe this week. We may learn more about the would-be rebel leaders as the week draws to a close.

As for the sorting out the rebellion's military competence issues; sure those can be addressed with enough time, money, and heavy artillery. Eventually, the rebellion will receive enough beatings that calmer voices will eventually start to be heard. Only Gaddafi can actually delay that day where calmer voices can prevail for a very long time . . . he's well-versed in asymmetric warfare, having trained and sponsored guerilla movements across Africa, and he's been exploiting the sieve-like nature of rebel security.

[Zaune]

I'd like to personally thank you for this wholly unwarranted bit of condescending cynicism. It's one thing to comment on the Rebel's lack of military prowess but another to paint their actions as being motivated by juvenile machismo and indulging in something I would at this point regard as racist spite by "subtly" remarking that Arabs are only good for suicide bombing. Thank you.

He does unfortunately have a bit of a point. I'm sure the Libyan army units who've defected to the coup are hardly the epitome of training and discipline themselves, but at least they've got a command structure and some understanding of infantry tactics. The volunteer brigades are probably as dangerous to themselves and each other as they are to the enemy, and hammering them into something vaguely competent is going to take time the rebels probably don't have, even with enemy action thinning out the stupid ones.

[Metahive]

I said I have no problem with people commenting on the military ineptitude of the insurgents. That however doesn't mean condescendingly downplaying the whole uprising as just a bunch of kiddies on a testosterone rush is warranted and especially not implying that people who coincidentally happen to be Arabs are only good for suicide bombing.

[Block]

I said I have no problem with people commenting on the military ineptitude of the insurgents. That however doesn't mean condescendingly downplaying the whole uprising as just a bunch of kiddies on a testosterone rush is warranted and especially not implying that people who coincidentally happen to be Arabs are only good for suicide bombing.

At this point in time, that's the only thing untrained conscripts are really good for no matter the ethnicity. If you don't have some form of training you're going to get killed very very quickly, and may even get those around you killed, so going out in a blaze of glory would be more effective than that. That was what was implied.

[Simon_Jester]

I'd like to personally thank you for this wholly unwarranted bit of condescending cynicism. It's one thing to comment on the Rebel's lack of military prowess but another to paint their actions as being motvated by juvenile machismo and indulging in something I would at this point regard as racist spite by "subtly" remarking that Arabs are only good for suicide bombing. Thank you.

I've come to expect no less from Fingolfin.

In any case, this does make it fairly clear that the rebels aren't a viable alternative to Qaddafi unless they're supplied with one hell of a lot more resources than they've gotten to date. They might have been able to topple him in the first clash if they'd gotten enough men around Tripoli to overwhelm his security forces before he could consolidate and bring up the big guns, but that didn't happen, which means he'll have to be defeated in conventional war if he's going to be defeated at all. That means either NATO ground troops to do the job, or someone taking the effort to arm and train the Libyan equivalent of the Continental Army to go with the militia.

[Metahive]

At this point in time, that's the only thing untrained conscripts are really good for no matter the ethnicity. If you don't have some form of training you're going to get killed very very quickly, and may even get those around you killed, so going out in a blaze of glory would be more effective than that. That was what was implied.

Sorry, but I am not of the opinion that foolishly and futily throwing the lives of young people away is in any way a sensible suggestion. Nice to know your opinion of how much worth you consider the lives of libyan youths to be, Block.

[Pelranius]

How busy are the Egyptians right now?

[Block]

At this point in time, that's the only thing untrained conscripts are really good for no matter the ethnicity. If you don't have some form of training you're going to get killed very very quickly, and may even get those around you killed, so going out in a blaze of glory would be more effective than that. That was what was implied.

Sorry, but I am not of the opinion that foolishly and futily throwing the lives of young people away is in any way a sensible suggestion. Nice to know your opinion of how much worth you consider the lives of libyan youths to be, Block.

I consider untrained youth to be worthless in combat, that doesn't mean human life is worthless to me. Stop trying to seize non-existant moral high ground. I'm simply commenting on how those people would be most effective. It doesn't mean I endorse it, if anything I'd say they should avoid combat as much as possible until they can at least form trained cadres that will stiffen the spine of the rebel combatants.

[Lord Woodlouse]

There seems to be some degree of political organisation, and they have high ranking officers commanding their military. It's just in the lower ranks where there's no discipline and no organisation.

Some have suggested that better trained rebels have been held back around Benghazi, but I don't think there's anything to base that on. Until they get better training/discipline there's liable to be no change no matter how much heavy equipment they get their hands on.

[Metahive]

Nice backpedaling. Saying untrained youths don't perform well in combat is one thing, it's another to come right out and suggest to sacrifice them as cannon fodder in futile suicide attacks. Do not presume I am unable to pick up on that difference.

[Block]

Nice backpedaling. Saying untrained youths don't perform well in combat is one thing, it's another to come right out and suggest to sacrifice them as cannon fodder in futile suicide attacks. Do not presume I am unable to pick up on that difference.

Actually you're not. Read what I said again, carefully.

[Terralthra]

Block isn't Fingolfin. Fingolfin suggested strapping bombs to them, not Block. One can't backpedal from something one didn't say in the first place.

[Metahive]

Block isn't Fingolfin. Fingolfin suggested strapping bombs to them, not Block. One can't backpedal from something one didn't say in the first place.

If you don't have some form of training you're going to get killed very very quickly, and may even get those around you killed, so going out in a blaze of glory would be more effective than that.

I read that as Block agreeing with Fingolfin and therefore my accusation of backpedaling stands. Yes, I read things carefully.

[Lord Woodlouse]

The chap still has a point. Based on what we've seen being a suicide bomber pretty much is the most tactical use that they have (and that's saying something in of itself), but that does not mean the chap considers it the right thing to do. I picked up on that from the first post, it's intended as a harsh indictment of rebel fighting prowess not a recommendation.

[Metahive]

O bullshit! Saying that the lybian rebels are just a bunch of testosterone-addled kiddies that should be best used as "smart" bombs crosses the line of "harsh indictment" into "cynical jackassery".

I guess instead of dropping bombs on the Rebels Ghaddafi should have rather dropped X-Boxes so those dumb kiddies had some conformist means to get their testosterone rush, huh? Can't think of toppling the oppressive dictator when you're busy unlocking all those achievement in Halo, right? It works with those chronically apathetic first-worlders after all who are for the most part even too lazy to exercise their democratic rights every few years.

[Sea Skimmer]

He does unfortunately have a bit of a point. I'm sure the Libyan army units who've defected to the coup are hardly the epitome of training and discipline themselves, but at least they've got a command structure and some understanding of infantry tactics. The volunteer brigades are probably as dangerous to themselves and each other as they are to the enemy, and hammering them into something vaguely competent is going to take time the rebels probably don't have, even with enemy action thinning out the stupid ones.

The volunteer units have shown pretty good discipline in terms of not shooting each other. This is one of the reasons why they simply flee combat so much, they are always afraid of firing on other rebel units that might be out in front of them, and they also don't want to shoot at urban areas. So when in doubt, pull back. This being desert warfare it really doesn't matter if you abandon positions because nothing is good defense terrain except certain urban center. In terms of other military skills.. yeah they aren't very good at all but the media has found signs of training commencing, and certainly they are learning more in terms of bringing along equipment besides weapons. The trucks pushing west in the last couple days seemed far better prepared and loaded down with reserve fuel, water, blankets and stuff like that then the ones that made of the rebel advance in the first two weeks. The rebels have all the time in the world as far as I can see; what they don't have is an unlimited supply of willing warm bodies and for now minimizing losses is simply going to have to take precedent over holding anything past Ajdabiya. Neither of the oil ports is a decent defensive position, the layouts of the urban areas just suck for it.

[Falarica]

Libyan Foreign Minister jumps ship.

Link

Libya's foreign minister Moussa Koussa has arrived in London on a surprise visit from Tunisia, amid reports he has defected.

A Libyan government spokesman insisted Mr Koussa - in his post for two years - had not defected, but was travelling abroad on a diplomatic mission.

The BBC's Nick Robinson said sources had told him they were confident he had come to London to escape the regime.

It comes as the UK takes steps to expel five Libyan diplomats.

Foreign Secretary William Hague told MPs the five, who include the military attache, "could pose a threat" to UK security.

The development comes as rebels fighting Libyan government forces are continuing to lose ground and are retreating from their former strongholds along the eastern coast of Libya.

Earlier, Prime Minister David Cameron said the UK was not ruling out providing arms to rebels in "certain circumstances" but no decision had been taken.

The UK has been involved in more than 160 aerial missions, as well as missile strikes, over Libya since coalition operations began on 19 March following a UN resolution.

The coalition military action is aimed at enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya and protecting civilians from attacks by forces loyal to its leader Col Muammar Gaddafi. It has denied air strikes are meant to provide cover for a rebel advance.

BBC is also reporting the Obama signed an executive order to provide covert aid to the rebels (ie weapons), according to 'inside sources'. Will try to find a link.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

O bullshit! Saying that the lybian rebels are just a bunch of testosterone-addled kiddies that should be best used as "smart" bombs crosses the line of "harsh indictment" into "cynical jackassery".

I guess instead of dropping bombs on the Rebels Ghaddafi should have rather dropped X-Boxes so those dumb kiddies had some conformist means to get their testosterone rush, huh? Can't think of toppling the oppressive dictator when you're busy unlocking all those achievement in Halo, right? It works with those chronically apathetic first-worlders after all who are for the most part even too lazy to exercise their democratic rights every few years.

Man... figures that cynical sarcasm will lead on to some jackass who needs to feel warm and good taking the moral high ground every now and then...

Obviously it isn't a good idea to send kids strapped with bombs at the enemy, but given their "glorious" performance so far, I can't think of anything that would make them better without you know, 3-12mths of boot camp training.

[Zinegata]

This is beginning to look more and more like the British/German North African campaign back in World War 2. Terrain really does dictate how wars are fought.

[Metahive]

Man... figures that cynical sarcasm will lead on to some jackass who needs to feel warm and good taking the moral high ground every now and then...

High ground? I didn't have to assume any high ground, you just dug yourself into a pit with your uncalled for "sarcasm". I also wonder why privileged first-worlders sitting in a comfortable chair far, far away from such misfortune think they are entitled to such a sort of cynicism.

Obviously it isn't a good idea to send kids strapped with bombs at the enemy, but given their "glorious" performance so far, I can't think of anything that would make them better without you know, 3-12mths of boot camp training.

I would like to see you rising up against the armies of your homecountry and give a more "glorious" performance, you arrogant shithead. What the hell are people expecting? Droves of civilans fighting against professional forces in a country not very well suited for guerilla warfare, of course they're going to suck. Man, it's like people mistook Red Dawn for a fucking documentary.

[Lord Woodlouse]

He never said he'd be any better, nor has he said he'd expect any better from untrained youths. It's a fact of life that without military training your use as a soldier in a war is going to be pretty negligible.

Your urgent desire to be righteously indignant is looking more and more preposterous the more you keep at it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

High ground? I didn't have to assume any high ground, you just dug yourself into a pit with your uncalled for "sarcasm". I also wonder why privileged first-worlders sitting in a comfortable chair far, far away from such misfortune think they are entitled to such a sort of cynicism.

Dug what pit? I don't see any. You mean this imaginary pit?

And mind, I come from Asia, which happens to have suffered enough from European meddling thank you very much.

I would like to see you rising up against the armies of your homecountry and give a more "glorious" performance, you arrogant shithead. What the hell are people expecting? Droves of civilans fighting against professional forces in a country not very well suited for guerilla warfare, of course they're going to suck. Man, it's like people mistook Red Dawn for a fucking documentary.

Stupid fools who do not know how to hold a gun and shoot, or can stand machine gun/tank/armor/artillery fright are more a danger to themselves and their compatriots. Zeal and enthusiam are no substitute for training. I also wonder what double thinking is going through your head when I myself said that to your effect. Apparently you are so hung up on my sarcastic suggestion the rest of the post flew past your head.

Shut the fuck up and sit down and quit your rambling.

[Metahive]

He never said he'd be any better, nor has he said he'd expect any better from untrained youths.

I expressed my wonder why people complain about the rebel's performance when them sucking against professional soldiers was to be expected all along and yes, complaining implies they think they'd know better.

It's a fact of life that without military training your use as a soldier in a war is going to be pretty negligible.

And? Have I anywhere contradicted that? Still doesn't mean some uninvolved spectator from the peanut gallery should feel free to tell those people to kill themselves to "improve" their performance. That's nothing but haughty arrogance.

Your urgent desire to be righteously indignant is looking more and more preposterous the more you keep at it.

You and your ilk's urgent desire for uncalled for patronizing cynicism will always be several steps ahead in preposterousness, because I am not the one dehumanizing people here by degrading them to "smart" bombs.

And mind, I come from Asia, which happens to have suffered enough from European meddling thank you very much.

Notice how I never used the words "western" or "european" but "first world". You're from Singapore as far as I know which does count as first world.

Stupid fools who do not know how to hold a gun and shoot, or can stand machine gun/tank/armor/artillery fright are more a danger to themselves and their compatriots.

D'uh, I guess they should have called off their uprising then since offending your sense of what is militarily appropriate is serious business and absolutely necessary to be taken into consideration before planning to overthrow an oppressive regime.

Zeal and enthusiam are no substitute for training.

Cynical jackassery is no substitute for military expertise either. Look at Sea Skimmer's posts who manages to assess their performance realistically without feeling the need to be a patronizing idiot.

I also wonder what double thinking is going through your head when I myself said that to your effect. Apparently you are so hung up on my sarcastic suggestion the rest of the post flew past your head.

Don't attack the argument, attack the person instead. Your fine debating skills are shining through.

Shut the fuck up and sit down and quit your rambling.

I'm afraid I can't follow this order, sir.

I will however stop right now to derail this thread any further with this tangent. If someone feels the need to discuss this particular matter any further, I propose creating a seperate thread.

Goodbye.

[Metahive]

ETA to the post above since I missed the editing deadline:

In history most popular uprisings like the French Revolution, the Russian Red October, the American War for Independence or even the armed insurgency against the Soviet incursion in Afghanistan had the rebels fare poorly until either large swaths of the army defected, they got professional military drill and/or massive support from the outside. Therefore I ask again, what exactly were the people complaining so vocally about the lybian rebel's performance expecting? I mean scoffing and mocking does kinda' imply they expected better, doesn't it?