Sovereign citizens spin history, reject government

[Srelex]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100812/ap_ ... n_citizens

COLUMBUS, Ohio – They call themselves sovereign citizens, U.S. residents who declare themselves above state and federal laws. Many don't register children's births, carry driver's licenses or recognize the court system.

Some peddle schemes that use fictional legal loopholes to eliminate debt and avoid foreclosures.

A few such believers are violent: Two police officers in Arkansas died in a shootout in May after stopping an Ohio sovereign citizen and his son.

As many as 300,000 people identify as sovereign citizens, the Southern Poverty Law Center found in a study to be published Thursday that was obtained by The Associated Press. Hate group monitors say their numbers have increased thanks to the recession, the foreclosure crisis, the growth of the Internet and the election of Barack Obama in 2008.

Adherents expect the current American system of government to end one way or another.

"I'm the Patrick Henry of the 21st century. I'm here to regain our freedom," James McBride said in a jailhouse interview. "I'm going to, or die trying."

At the heart of their belief system: The government creates a secret identity for each citizen at birth, a "straw man," that controls an account at the U.S. Treasury used as collateral for foreign debt. File enough documents at the right offices and the money in those accounts can be used to pay off debt or make purchases worth thousands of dollars.

The movement is based on a form of "legal fundamentalism," said Michael Barkun, a retired Syracuse University political science professor who researches anti-government and hate groups.

"These people really seem to feel that filing certain kinds of legal papers that are connected to their theories will somehow also magically have the power to alter relationships and grant things that otherwise would be unobtainable," he said.

Experts say sovereign citizens are the latest manifestation of anti-government activists going back to the Posse Comitatus movement of the 1970s, which recognized only local governments and no law enforcement official with more jurisdiction than a sheriff.

In the 1980s, government protesters exploited the farm crisis by selling fraudulent debt relief programs.

"In good times they focus on tax cheating, in bad times they focus on getting out of debt," said JJ MacNab, an expert on tax and financial schemes and author of the SPLC report.

Martin Smith of Carthage, Mo., lost $8,000 to a father-and-son company in Columbus called Liberty Resources that pitched a method to eliminate credit card debt based on a theory that national banks aren't authorized to issue credit.

"We just became convinced that each of the parts of the puzzle that Liberty Resources ... was telling us existed would work," said Smith, 48, a civil engineer in Carthage, Mo.

Dan Wickline and his son, Chad, pleaded guilty in 2008 to conspiracy to commit money laundering and are serving federal prison sentences.

In April, a group called the Guardians of the Free Republics sent letters to governors demanding they leave office or be removed. The group's website calls for the restoration of lawful government and an end to tax forms, vehicle registrations and marriage licenses. An e-mail to the group was not returned.

Jim Jarvis is Ohio coordinator for the Restore America Plan, which shares similar beliefs with the Guardians group. He maintains the country has lacked a legitimate government since Congress failed to adjourn properly in 1861.

The people who are crazy, he says, are those who won't do the research to find out what's really going on in the country.


The sovereign citizen movement has grown to about 100,000 hard-core believers, the SPLC report estimates, and 200,000 people trying out the theories by "resisting everything from speeding tickets to drug charges."

The report cites IRS figures that estimated as many as 250,000 tax protesters in the mid-1990s, though not all of those were part of the sovereign citizen movement.

The 300,000 figure is the first calculation of the movement's numbers separate from tax protesters.

In May, Jerry Kane, who pitched so-called redemption schemes for reducing debt, died in a shootout with West Memphis, Ark., police after authorities said his 16-year-old son, Joe, fatally shot two officers during a traffic stop.

Kane's Florida widow, Donna Lee Wray, denies her husband and stepson were sovereign citizens. She maintains a website that asserts they weren't involved in the officers' deaths.

In a 2003 document Jerry Kane filed in a county recorder's office in Ohio, he said he was not a "Fourteen Amendment Citizen." Many sovereign citizens believe the 14th Amendment created a new class of citizens, people who had no constitutional rights but were instead slaves to the government, according to Mark Pitcavage, investigative researcher for the Anti-Defamation League.

McBride, the jailed sovereign citizen, came across anti-government beliefs while in federal prison in Michigan on a 1992 cocaine importing conviction.

Over the years he developed his own tenets, including a revised history of the United States that says the country was secretly organized as a general post office in 1789.

He dismisses any accusation that the programs he pitched were fraud, arguing he's not subject to the laws of the U.S., which he calls a corporation along the lines of a car company.

"General Motor's laws don't affect me because I'm not an employee of them," McBride said. "Same with the state of Ohio and the United States."

Today, McBride is headed back to federal prison after prosecutors said he cashed bogus checks and refused to cooperate with his parole officers following a 2004 bankruptcy fraud conviction.

"I'm never going to have my grandchildren say, 'Grandpa, why didn't you do something to protect my rights?'" McBride said.

"They may say, 'My grandpa died trying to protect my rights.'" ___

[Mr Bean]

Not to be an Internet tough guy but deporting the fellows to Somalia is the best course of action in my opinion. Either that first auctioning off their public goods THEN deporting them to Somalia. But that might be just me. Think how many problems can be solved by deporting the offenders to Somalia.

However this line caught my attention.

McBride, the jailed sovereign citizen, came across anti-government beliefs while in federal prison in Michigan on a 1992 cocaine importing conviction.

Over the years he developed his own tenets, including a revised history of the United States that says the country was secretly organized as a general post office in 1789.

He dismisses any accusation that the programs he pitched were fraud, arguing he's not subject to the laws of the U.S., which he calls a corporation along the lines of a car company.

"General Motor's laws don't affect me because I'm not an employee of them," McBride said. "Same with the state of Ohio and the United States."

He is in essence a Lolbertarian but with a conspiracy theory bent. They still are calling in essence to enjoy all the benefits of society without having to pay any of the costs.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Jim Jarvis is Ohio coordinator for the Restore America Plan, which shares similar beliefs with the Guardians group. He maintains the country has lacked a legitimate government since Congress failed to adjourn properly in 1861.

I have to at least respect that he thinks the country hasn't been proper for a while, and not just since "dem librals" took over.

[Bedlam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100812/ap_ ... n_citizens
"I'm never going to have my grandchildren say, 'Grandpa, why didn't you do something to protect my rights?'" McBride said.

"They may say, 'My grandpa died trying to protect my rights.'" ___

If your not a member of a country wouldn't that mean that you dont have any rights? Isn't it the government that is suposed to define what rights you have and protect them. By declaring yourself outside of the countries rules then wouldn't that mean you have no rights?

[Lord of the Abyss]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100812/ap_ ... n_citizens
"I'm never going to have my grandchildren say, 'Grandpa, why didn't you do something to protect my rights?'" McBride said.

"They may say, 'My grandpa died trying to protect my rights.'" ___

If your not a member of a country wouldn't that mean that you dont have any rights? Isn't it the government that is suposed to define what rights you have and protect them. By declaring yourself outside of the countries rules then wouldn't that mean you have no rights?

These types are in complete denial of that. Government, and government alone is a threat to rights; not their guarantor.

[Kanastrous]

If these people were to formally renounce their US citizenship, I think they could be deported. Although I don't know who'd want them.

[SAMAS]

Not to sound like an ITG, but I say let them sort that out.

[CmdrWilkens]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100812/ap_ ... n_citizens
"I'm never going to have my grandchildren say, 'Grandpa, why didn't you do something to protect my rights?'" McBride said.

"They may say, 'My grandpa died trying to protect my rights.'" ___

If your not a member of a country wouldn't that mean that you dont have any rights? Isn't it the government that is suposed to define what rights you have and protect them. By declaring yourself outside of the countries rules then wouldn't that mean you have no rights?

Not quite, from a purely founding fathers style philosophical standpoint the argument is actually summarized succinctly in the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

In other words rights are inherent to man...it is the duty of government to SECURE those rights. However, the rights themselves exist in a vacuum save that it is both natural and understood that without government individuals will do ill to their neighbors, thus government enters as a necessary tool to prevent one person usurping the rights of another.

Now these jackasses haven't thought that far but they still, within the concept of civil rights, have all the same rights as always save that they are "just" renouncing the protection of the US (or any) government in securing the same.

[Themightytom]

McBride, the jailed sovereign citizen, came across anti-government beliefs while in federal prison in Michigan on a 1992 cocaine importing conviction.

Sounds like some self serving rationalization to me.

Over the years he developed his own tenets, including a revised history of the United States that says the country was secretly organized as a general post office in 1789.

I want to see the logic train on that one.

He dismisses any accusation that the programs he pitched were fraud, arguing he's not subject to the laws of the U.S., which he calls a corporation along the lines of a car company.

So the US is publicly traded.

"General Motor's laws don't affect me because I'm not an employee of them," McBride said. "Same with the state of Ohio and the United States."

GM doesn't make laws you asshole, they have policies. Nice straw man.

Immigrants can use this logic handily, if they aren't citizens they can't be breaking laws, because they never agreed to follow them.

[Vympel]

Wow. You read about a new kind of crazy / deluded / dishonest / all of the above.

This really bothered me:-

"We just became convinced that each of the parts of the puzzle that Liberty Resources ... was telling us existed would work," said Smith, 48, a civil engineer in Carthage, Mo.

A civil engineer fell for this shit? Really?

[Ritterin Sophia]

I have to at least respect that he thinks the country hasn't been proper for a while, and not just since "dem librals" took over.

You shouldn't. The reason Congress didn't adjourn was because the South had seceded and the Constitution had no solution to the problem of what to do if a quorum could not be reached. In other words not only is he a lolbertarian, but most probably a neo-confederate racist.

[Count Chocula]

For shits & giggles, and because I was looking at a ginormous (for me) income tax bill, I looked into these "sovereign citizen" movements about 9-10 years ago. They were pretty funny. My favorite was (forgive me, I've forgotten the provenance of this) that BECAUSE YOUR NAME ON YOUR SS#, CREDIT CARDS, DRIVERS LICENSE, ETC. WAS IN ALL CAPS you were legally a different "person," and btw at birth your ALL CAPS BIRTH NAME was entered as a Federal Reserve asset with a $100,000 indenture value! So, by simply mailing denials that little "y" you was not the same entity as YOU, you could magically not be liable for taxes, credit card bills, etc. etc. I'm guessing that the originator of that particular angle of attack had never used a mainframe, or read the output from a line printer, WHICH WAS ALL CAPS. Wait what, you mean it's a technological limitation and not a scheme to enslave us all? Shocking!

My other favorite is the "our courts have the Admiralty gold-fringed flag, therefore we're under military jurisdiction, therefore the courts are invalid for all torts and contracts!" argument. So all you budding lawyers out there, just study the UCMJ and hang a shingle! Bar examinations are for sheeple!

Oh yeah, the taxes: I ignored them for a year or 2, then the IRS came knocking. My ginormous tax bill became crazy ginormous, but I found a way to pay it then pay back the money I borrowed to pay it. Lesson learned.

[Zixinus]

A civil engineer fell for this shit? Really?

When you're in trouble and desperate, people have a tendency to think emotionally rather than rationally. Guy wanted to get out of debt very hard. Instead of paying it back, he sought stupid easy-looking solutions like Liberty Resources that gave what he desired, not what he needed. But it probably looked like such an ideal solution to him and the guy selling the scam pitched it so well that he believed it.

Until the debt didn't settle and he had less money than what he began with.

[Akumz Razor]

I bought into this line of thinking back when I was a freshman in high school, but eventually learned that the world simply doesn't work that way and grew out of my lolbertarian phase. It is unfortunate that many (most?) people remain stuck with the worldview they had when they were 15 well into adulthood.

[Master of Cards]

Wow. You read about a new kind of crazy / deluded / dishonest / all of the above.

This really bothered me:-

"We just became convinced that each of the parts of the puzzle that Liberty Resources ... was telling us existed would work," said Smith, 48, a civil engineer in Carthage, Mo.

A civil engineer fell for this shit? Really?

The town he's in is deep Ozarks, its full of rednecks and the like. I go to an engineering school in the area, a lot of engineering students are just rednecks who can do math and have all the normal redneck qualities.

[Vendetta]

As agents of a foreign power, the obvious solution is to hold them in custody until such time as their nation of origin comes forth to collect them.

[Kanastrous]

Do the words 'sovereign' and 'citizen' even work together?

If you are a sovereign entity in and of yourself, then it follows that you are not a citizen of any larger polity. Because if you are, then you are not a sovereign.

It seems like a nonsensical construction right off the bat.

[Solauren]

If they are found to be breaking the laws of the land, arrest them. If you are in a country, you are bond by it's rules.

Simple as that.

(i.e if one of these nuts got pulled over in Canada without a liscence, non-native or not, they'd get nailed to the wall like everyone else)

Just give them the maximum sentence to get a point across.

[Ryan Thunder]

Wow. You read about a new kind of crazy / deluded / dishonest / all of the above.

This really bothered me:-

"We just became convinced that each of the parts of the puzzle that Liberty Resources ... was telling us existed would work," said Smith, 48, a civil engineer in Carthage, Mo.

A civil engineer fell for this shit? Really?

Yeah, why not? All exams do is filter out the people who need time to think things through, really, and universities just love their fucking exams...

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I think its just a matter of focus. I mean, I don't know a lot about engineering, but I would assume that it takes a lot of effort and dedication to become an engineer of any variety, so I would not be surprised to find that the average engineer doesn't know a lot about, say, tax law.

Add in a scammer who knows just enough to sound convincing and you get Mr. Smith's situation.

[Zaune]

I think its just a matter of focus. I mean, I don't know a lot about engineering, but I would assume that it takes a lot of effort and dedication to become an engineer of any variety, so I would not be surprised to find that the average engineer doesn't know a lot about, say, tax law.

That's one of the reasons I've always thought that Sociology belongs on the science curriculum from at least middle school and up, rather than being an elective and lumped in with the Humanities budget (history, geography, religious studies etc) the way it is in Britain. My single semester on Sociology and the Media was more valuable in everyday life than all seven years of physics, chemistry and biology lessons, second only to two years with a truly superb history teacher: I may have a less-than-brilliant grasp of physics, chemistry or biology, but there's not much I don't know about bullshit.

[HMS Conqueror]

They shouldn't make up so much crazy revisionism, but individual sovereignty is a legitimate philosophical idea with quite old roots. It'd be more interesting if they dropped the historical "theorising" and developed this philosophy as a positive programme for reform.

[Samuel]

They shouldn't make up so much crazy revisionism, but individual sovereignty is a legitimate philosophical idea with quite old roots. It'd be more interesting if they dropped the historical "theorising" and developed this philosophy as a positive programme for reform.

Not really. Society requires everyone works together. I don't see how individuals insisting they don't have to contribute and leach off society could work as a program. Come on, aren't you a conservative? Aren't you against people mooching off the government?

[Beowulf]

If they are found to be breaking the laws of the land, arrest them. If you are in a country, you are bond by it's rules.

Simple as that.

(i.e if one of these nuts got pulled over in Canada without a liscence, non-native or not, they'd get nailed to the wall like everyone else)

Just give them the maximum sentence to get a point across.

Nah, if they're claiming the laws of the land don't apply because they're not citizens of the US, throw them into INS jails until we can figure out which country they are a citizen of.

[Jeremy]

Srelex, thanks for bringing this one up, it has been a curiosity to me for some time.

"I'm the Patrick Henry of the 21st century. I'm here to regain our freedom," James McBride said in a jailhouse interview. "I'm going to, or die trying."

IIRC, Patrick Henry was locked up by the Directory or Robespierre for being nuts when he tried to pettle his philosophy amongst the French Revolutionaries.

Jim Jarvis is Ohio coordinator for the Restore America Plan, which shares similar beliefs with the Guardians group. He maintains the country has lacked a legitimate government since Congress failed to adjourn properly in 1861.

I hate when people arbitrarily negate years (or hundreds of years) of effort put in by other people.

In a 2003 document Jerry Kane filed in a county recorder's office in Ohio, he said he was not a "Fourteen Amendment Citizen." Many sovereign citizens believe the 14th Amendment created a new class of citizens, people who had no constitutional rights but were instead slaves to the government, according to Mark Pitcavage, investigative researcher for the Anti-Defamation League.

I do not see a basis for his 14th Amendment argument.

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of Electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a State, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or Elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State Legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

5. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

+1 to everything Themightytom said in this thread.

If they are found to be breaking the laws of the land, arrest them. If you are in a country, you are bond by it's rules.

Simple as that.

(i.e if one of these nuts got pulled over in Canada without a liscence, non-native or not, they'd get nailed to the wall like everyone else)

Just give them the maximum sentence to get a point across.

Nah, if they're claiming the laws of the land don't apply because they're not citizens of the US, throw them into INS jails until we can figure out which country they are a citizen of.

To be the internet tough guy... Somalia.
Credit to Mr Bean.