Orange Order march sparks riot in Belfast.

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Orange Order march sparks riot in Belfast.

Post by Dartzap »

Youths have blocked a road in east Belfast, following a night of violent clashes sparked by the rerouting of an Orange Order parade.

The barricade was erected in the Albertbridge Road area early on Sunday.

The Northern Ireland police chief earlier said the Protestant Orange Order bore "substantial responsibility" for Saturday's outbreak of violence.

Loyalist rioters attacked police with homemade bombs, guns and bricks, injuring at least six officers.

Cars were hijacked and roads were also blocked in Ballyclare, Glengormley, Rathcoole, Larne and Carrickfergus, as the violence spread.

Officers injured

Sir Hugh Orde says his police officers and the troops called in to help them contain the violence over the Whiterock parade, were heroes.



He said they had been attacked with petrol bombs and blast bombs in outbreaks of rioting.

Gunmen had opened fire on police and they had returned fire. At least six officers were injured and one civilian was shot.

"I have seen members of the Orange Order in their sashes attacking my officers. I have seen them standing next to masked men.

"That is simply not good enough," Sir Hugh said.

"The Orange Order must bear substantial responsibility for this. They publicly called people on to the streets."

"I think if you do that, you cannot then abdicate responsibility."

BBC Northern Ireland correspondent Kevin Connolly said security forces were the target of a sustained attack of "extraordinary ferocity" during "the worst rioting in Belfast for years".

Meanwhile, civilians were also affected by road closures that brought chaos for hours.

"An ugly political blame game is certain to follow," he said.

Earlier, DUP leader Ian Paisley earlier blamed the Parades Commission for not reviewing the route that barred it from a nationalist area.

The parade was re-routed to avoid the mainly nationalist Springfield Road area.

It's frustration of Protestant people as to what they can do to have their ordinary voice heard.
Orangeman Raymond Speers

After a request by unionists on Friday, the Parades Commission reviewed its ruling on the route, but decided not to change it.

"The commission treated elected representatives with contempt by its refusal to even call us to put our case," said Mr Paisley.

Orangeman Raymond Speers said: "In the grand scale of things, just to disrupt traffic is not a heinous crime when you look back over the years of history in Northern Ireland," he said.

"It's frustration of Protestant people as to what they can do to have their ordinary voice heard. We just feel so frustrated that there is a cultural veto through the Parades Commission for the republican/nationalist community."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/n ... 234492.stm

Published: 2005/09/11 07:36:56 GMT
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Post by VT-16 »

Those Orange Order jerkoffs can go fuck themselves, for all I care. I certainly wouldn´t mind having their order banned. All they seem to do is piss people off knowingly and hide behind "tradition" as an excuse.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Well you see the secret plan of Sinn Fein, disband the IRA, and now that everyone is out to take down every terrorist, leave only one target. Of course this leaves folks like Pounder and Boyd in the Lurch who can't be blamed for the actions of the Zealots, along with those poor police who have been caught in the middle since the beginning.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I couldn't believe what I was seeing on the evening news, it's like looking at reports from the '70s and '80s again.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

I've been stuck in this for 2 days now. See the venting thread for more details but basically it was so bad on Saturday night that i had to sleep in the hotel i work in, my area was completely cut off and i life in a nice area. This is a complete disgrace and has nothing to do with unionists. The problem is loyalism and the culture of violence and alcohol surrounding it. Just a few weeks ago they where fighting amongst themselves and now Uncle Ian and his orange horde has gave them a new target, it's not even the "enemy" they are hurting, it's their own areas they are wrecking and destroying. I used to be a member of the Orange Order, a proud member and even when i'd left it i still held it in high regard, but the last shred of respect i once held it in evapourated this weekend when the GOLI decided terrorists and thugs made better company than ordinary deacent unionists.
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

Pounder, when has the Orange Order ever been respectable? The whole point of their existance has been based on religious hatred and intolerance. They parade through catholic neghborhoods celebrating the slaughter of catholics. How is that any different than the KKK marching through Selma, Alabama celebrating the lynchings of years past?
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Post by The Guid »

I wonder if any Orange Order members will be up for inciting terrorism or inciting hatred? Doubt it.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Col. Crackpot wrote:Pounder, when has the Orange Order ever been respectable? The whole point of their existance has been based on religious hatred and intolerance. They parade through catholic neghborhoods celebrating the slaughter of catholics. How is that any different than the KKK marching through Selma, Alabama celebrating the lynchings of years past?
The difference is that the order originaly didn't preach that. It wasn't till the so called troubles started that the hate came in. Thats why i left the Order (that and the fact slightly queer athiests rack up just below catholics in their eyes). The parades through catholic areas where orginally full protestant areas who through intimitation and violence where forcably "relocated". However times changed, the Order has not.
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Post by Perinquus »

Lord Pounder wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:Pounder, when has the Orange Order ever been respectable? The whole point of their existance has been based on religious hatred and intolerance. They parade through catholic neghborhoods celebrating the slaughter of catholics. How is that any different than the KKK marching through Selma, Alabama celebrating the lynchings of years past?
The difference is that the order originaly didn't preach that. It wasn't till the so called troubles started that the hate came in. Thats why i left the Order (that and the fact slightly queer athiests rack up just below catholics in their eyes). The parades through catholic areas where orginally full protestant areas who through intimitation and violence where forcably "relocated". However times changed, the Order has not.
How long ago were these areas Protestant? Way back in 1850, the British government found it necessary to pass something called The Party Processions Act, which banned such marches (this was repealed in 1872, thanks to political pressure from Ulster Unionists, many of whom were, of course, Orangemen). And in 1839 the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had warned people against participating in them. But then, as now, the Orange Order simply refused to abstain from such provocative behavior. Serious riots broke out in 1857 and 1864, and a particularly violent one in 1849, which left eight people dead, with many more injured. In 1857, the British government appointed a commission, who determined that such marches led to "violence, outrage religious animosities, hatred between classes and, too often, loss of life." THe reason for these riots and that these marches led to government appointed a commission, who determined that such marches led to "violence, outrage religious animosities, hatred between classes and, too often, loss of life", is because the Orange Order has always insisted on routing its marches through Catholic neighborhoods -- a deliberately provocative behavior. And the Order has, for well over a century now, flatly refused to moderate its behavior in this regard. So they dress up in their bowlers and their orange sashes, and march through Catholic neighborhoods, accompanied by bands playing traditional tunes, many of which feature lyrics that are insulting and threatening to Catholics.

Frankly, I can't see much that has ever been very admirable about the Orange Order. It is an organization which had its very origin rooted in sectarian violence, and is basically dedicated to the ideal of Protestant domination over Catholics, which commemorates that domination every July 12th by parading through Catholic neighborhoods while belting out anti-Catholics ditties, and which has provided a very comfortable home for any number of undeniable anti-Catholic bigots throughout its long history.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Your ignorance is astounding. The most recent places where marches have become rerouted only became Catholic Nationalist areas in the late 70's/early 80's, the people who did live in the area where forced out at gun point or by threats of violence against their women and children. But thats right it's old men in bowler hats and orange sashes who do all the intimading :roll: Both sides are to blame for the way things have got.
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Lord Pounder wrote:Your ignorance is astounding. The most recent places where marches have become rerouted only became Catholic Nationalist areas in the late 70's/early 80's, the people who did live in the area where forced out at gun point or by threats of violence against their women and children. But thats right it's old men in bowler hats and orange sashes who do all the intimading :roll: Both sides are to blame for the way things have got.
My ignorance is astounding? You speak of an organization that has its direct roots in the sectarian violence in the 1790s and tell me that it was only since the the troubles of the late sixties that hatred has come in, and tell me my ignorance is astounding? You conveniently ignore the fact that as long ago as the mid nineteenth century these marches were being proscribed in law (albeit temporarily), and officially discouraged by the British government because they were found to be a source of "violence, outrage, religious animosities, hatred between classes and, too often, loss of life", and tell me that my ignorance is astounding? I don't think I've ever seen more cheek on this board.

So what if the marches have been rerouted from places that have only recently become predominantly Catholic? That doesn't change the fact that the Orange Order has a long and ignoble history of marching through neighborhoods that were traditionally Catholic. The proof of this is the violence that these things have been periodically sparking off for well over a century. Such riots would hardly take place if the Orange Order had always confined its routes to Protestant neighborhoods, with all Protestant crowds lining the streets -- who would be offended enough to start a fight then? And in any case, so what if the demographic makeup of the neighborhoods has changed from what it used to be? What difference does that make really? The only grounds on which you can defend those routes is that they are traditional. Since when is that a good excuse to take provocative actions? What the fuck is so sacrosanct about tradition that people use it to justify frankly offensive behavior?

And I should also point out, that I never laid the blame for the violence in Northern Ireland entirely at the feet of the Orange Order and its custom of marching (thanks for demonstrating your mastery of the strawman). There's blame enough on both sides. But the fact remains that when you have sectarian tensions, periodically flaring up into violence, and a climate of bigotry and hatred rooted deep in the population on both sides, people of good will and conscience need to take steps to make things better, not worse. Marching through Catholic neighborhoods (whether they are long Catholic or recently Catholic, it makes no difference), while singing anti-Catholic songs and marching with bands which (some of them) openly advertise their association with loyalist paramilitary groups (i.e. terrorists), is an action that a five year old would understand is provocative. It is profoundly unhelpful in trying to heal the rifts in those communities. In other words, in the climate of sectarian violence and hate that prevails, the Orange Order could try to be a part of the solution; instead, it is a part of the problem. Even if they are not the only part of the problem, and they are not, they are still a part, and I for one, don't find very much that is admirable about that.
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Post by Perinquus »

Lord Pounder wrote:Your ignorance is astounding. The most recent places where marches have become rerouted only became Catholic Nationalist areas in the late 70's/early 80's, the people who did live in the area where forced out at gun point or by threats of violence against their women and children.
Ghetto Edit.

And those people were only there because the owners that were there before them -- the Catholic population of Ulster -- were forced off their land when it was stolen from them and turned over to English and lowland Scottish colonists brought over by the English crown.

You see, I can play this game too. But why bother? Not letting go of old grievances is part of the problem there.

And while some Protestants no doubt found it healthy to relocate because of the PIRA or other nationalist terrorists, it is hardly correct to imagine every Catholic homeowner along the routes owes his place there to the fact that a Protestant was forced out at gunpoint. The fact is that the Catholic population of Northern Ireland is simply growing faster than the Protestant one, so of course Catholics are going to be spreading out into what were formerly mostly Protestant neighborhoods.
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Post by Plekhanov »

Perinquus wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:Your ignorance is astounding. The most recent places where marches have become rerouted only became Catholic Nationalist areas in the late 70's/early 80's, the people who did live in the area where forced out at gun point or by threats of violence against their women and children.
Ghetto Edit.
And those people were only there because the owners that were there before them -- the Catholic population of Ulster -- were forced off their land when it was stolen from them and turned over to English and lowland Scottish colonists brought over by the English crown.

You see, I can play this game too. But why bother? Not letting go of old grievances is part of the problem there.
You don’t play the game very well though, the “planting” of Prostetants in Ireland and all the unpleasantness that went along with it happened in the 16th & 17th centuries OVER 300 YEARS AGO, whereas the process of Catholic & Protestants minorities being forced out is still happening today. One of grievances you attempt to equate is a centuries old, the other is fresh & infact ongoing, which one do you think should be “let go” first?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Ah yes, Northern Ireland, a constant sore to the remnants of the British Empire, who attempt to spin this away as it giving them "experience" in fighting terrorism.
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Post by Plekhanov »

MKSheppard wrote:Ah yes, Northern Ireland, a constant sore to the remnants of the British Empire, who attempt to spin this away as it giving them "experience" in fighting terrorism.
I assume you can provide a quote of some government minister or equivalent figure stating something along the lines of "well of course over the last century or so Britain’s involvement in Ireland has cost us thousands of lives, immense political bother & billions of pounds but that's fine because we got to practice behind blownup & sniped at" to backup your pointless post.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Besides the long standing comment of The SAS and the Paras that they have more experience the the americans in fighting terrorists, after all they all do tours in Northern Ireland.
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The Yosemite Bear wrote:Besides the long standing comment of The SAS and the Paras that they have more experience the the americans in fighting terrorists, after all they all do tours in Northern Ireland.
...So we're to take 'Military elites bragging' as the equivalent of a major figure declaring something.

Riiiiiight. Just Shep trolling around again, no change..
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Post by Perinquus »

Plekhanov wrote:
Perinquus wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:Your ignorance is astounding. The most recent places where marches have become rerouted only became Catholic Nationalist areas in the late 70's/early 80's, the people who did live in the area where forced out at gun point or by threats of violence against their women and children.
Ghetto Edit.
And those people were only there because the owners that were there before them -- the Catholic population of Ulster -- were forced off their land when it was stolen from them and turned over to English and lowland Scottish colonists brought over by the English crown.

You see, I can play this game too. But why bother? Not letting go of old grievances is part of the problem there.
You don’t play the game very well though, the “planting” of Prostetants in Ireland and all the unpleasantness that went along with it happened in the 16th & 17th centuries OVER 300 YEARS AGO, whereas the process of Catholic & Protestants minorities being forced out is still happening today. One of grievances you attempt to equate is a centuries old, the other is fresh & infact ongoing, which one do you think should be “let go” first?
Well, it's kind of hard to "let go", when you have people in your face literally with brass bands reminding you about their victories in battle from 1690. July 12th rolls around every year, and the march through Catholic neighborhoods amounts to them smiling and saying: "Ha ha. Fuck you. We won. You lost." So who has a problem letting go of the past?

The problem is, you can't just write if off so easily as "well, that happened 300 years ago", because each act of violence has led to retaliatory violence, and it goes right back in direct procession to that long ago. It's hard to leave it in the past when each act leads to another and another and another. Much of the land of Ulster was stolen from its rightful owners, and the aforementioned English and Scottish Protestants were transplanted on to the land. The native Irish, who were Catholic, very understandably resented this, and fought back, leading to an Irish rebellion in 1641, which resulted in a number of massacres of Protestant settlers. The rebellion was put down, and Oliver Cromwell came over in 1649, and massacred a large number of Catholics. In the 1690s, Catholic Irish lined up behind James Stewart, while Protestants sided with William of Orange, and William ultimately won. The Protestants, having secured political ascendancy, soon began passing what have become known as "The Penal Laws". This was very like the Apartheid laws of South Africa in more recent times -- the declared purpose of these laws was to disenfranchise the native majority from all power, both political and economic. However, unlike Apartheid, the offcal discrimination was not aimed at race, but at religion. The intent was to entice the Irish into conversion to Protestantism. A Catholic could avoid the oppressive effects of these laws by conversion. The Irish, very understandably resented this as well. Rather than convert, they chose to regard this (rightly) as unjust oppression and tyranny. As often happens in oppressed societies, underground groups arose to resist this oppression, often by violence. These groups were known by various names such as the Defenders, the Whiteboys (this was taken from white cockades they wore, it wasn't racial as there were almost no non-whites in Ireland back then), the Thrashers, and the Ribbonmen, among others. These groups committed acts of violence and vandalism, and it wasn't long before Protestant groups began to organize on similar lines. One of these, known as the Peep o'Day Boys, ultimately became the Orange Order. Pounder's assertion that this organization did not promote hatred until the recent troubles is quite simply nonsense. It's always been a haven for Catholic hating bigots, and opposed organizations made up of Protestant hating bigots. The Orange Order, along with other organisations (both Protestant and Catholic), was actually banned between 1823 and 1845 by the British government because these groups promoted sectarian tension in Ulster. This made the marches illegal, however they were held anyway, and little was done to punish the lawbreakers. This is yet another grievance of Catholics, and in fairness it is a legitimate one: the British government was always more willing to turn a bind eye to flagrant violations by Protestants than by Catholics. Another example of this is the reaction of Ulster Unionists led by Sir Edward Carson to the passage of a home rule bill for Ireland. They advocated armed resistance to the bill, organized the Ulster Volunteer Force, and began arming them (the UVF received a large arms cache from Germany in April 1914). No action was ever taken against Carson. Now think about this. You have a British peer advocating armed resistance to the democratically expressed will of the people, raising and arming a private army, and getting away with it. Is it any wonder Catholics would see this and conclude there was nothing left but armed resistance? I can't say I approve of the violent resistance measures taken by Catholics, especially in more recent times when whatever justifications there may ever have been for them have long since faded (and I've never, ever approved of targetting of civilians like the PIRA has done since the 60s), but given circumstances like this, i.e. blatant discrimination both official and non official of the British government, going back a long way, can you entirely blame them for concluding that it was a complete waste of time and effort to try and change things by working peacefully within the system?

And so, to summarize, you had Catholic groups committing violence against Protestants, and Protestant groups committing violence against Catholics. And each act by one groups prompts a retaliation by the other. It's been going on this way for centuries. Occasionally, the violence subsides for a while; there was a period between the 1920s and 1960s where things had died down somewhat. But then the troubles of the 190s fanned the old flames again. But the point is that since most of these grievances are, indeed, ancient history, and since there is certainly blame enough to go around on both sides, wouldn't the smart, noble, and peaceful gesture be to reroute the marches, and leave the most offensive of the anti-Catholic songs in the past? But they don't do this. Or if they do, it is only grudgingly, and with poor grace, and often only after being compelled by the authorities.
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Post by Plekhanov »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Besides the long standing comment of The SAS and the Paras that they have more experience the the americans in fighting terrorists, after all they all do tours in Northern Ireland.
Moronic claims that experience dealing with the IRA in Europe will allow us to catch Bin Laden in Afghanistan and so forth in no way equate to an attempt “to spin away” the downside British involvement in Ireland.

Claims like that are a rather pathetic attempt to show how tough we are for propaganda in the current “war on terror” not a claim that the longstanding and ongoing ‘troubles’ in Northern Ireland are a price well worth paying for the experience the British security services have of dealing with terrorism.
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Post by Plekhanov »

Perinquus wrote:<snip unnecessary & partial, potted History of Ireland>
I’m well aware of the History of Britians involvement in Ireland, a subject I elected to take a few modules on when I did my A’Levels, you can rant about the evils of British rule in Ireland & introduce all the red herrings you like, that doesn’t change the fact that the post of yours I responded to was wrong in 2 significant ways

1. the ongoing pressuring of Protestants out of majority Catholic areas is an “old grievance” and not a current one.
2. the bizarre claim that the crimes of the British state over 300 years ago in some way discount or legitimise in some way the crimes of people today.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Well the comment in the '80s was that GSG9 was bad cause the drove Baader-Meinhoff out of the Western half, SAS was always doing ops in the north, and all the US could claim was lots of propaganda movies, and a terrorist enemy that tended to blow them selves up, or use faulty guns (re the Weathermen).

No, The troubles in Ireland have been of no benefit to anyone, except purhaps gangsters, smugglers, and in a weird way The Republic of Ireland.
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Plekhanov wrote:
Perinquus wrote:<snip unnecessary & partial, potted History of Ireland>
I’m well aware of the History of Britians involvement in Ireland, a subject I elected to take a few modules on when I did my A’Levels, you can rant about the evils of British rule in Ireland & introduce all the red herrings you like, that doesn’t change the fact that the post of yours I responded to was wrong in 2 significant ways

1. the ongoing pressuring of Protestants out of majority Catholic areas is an “old grievance” and not a current one.
2. the bizarre claim that the crimes of the British state over 300 years ago in some way discount or legitimise in some way the crimes of people today.
:roll:

Thank you for showing that you too, are fully capable of the notorious strawman.

First off, let me correct your bullshit second assertion. I never said that the crimes of people today are "legitimized" by the actions of anyone 300 years ago. If the provos or anyone else are indeed intimidating or threatening people out of their homes, that is a crime and is inexcusable. However, I beg leave to doubt that the problem is as severe as Pounder is making it out. For one thing, he cites no sources, and I can't help but remember some of the propaganda I once read about the rebellion of 1641, which gave a number of Protestants massacred at Portadown in 1644 which was greater than the total number of Protestants even living in Ireland at the time. (And a song titled "Portadown", and based on Protestant propaganda accounts of the incident, BTW, is one of those anti-Catholic songs that the Orangemen so love to sing as they march every 12th of July.) Rumors have a way of growing as they are told and retold. I would not be surprised in the least to to see actual instances a handful of homeowners getting fed up with intimidation and harassment by Catholic thugs getting inflated into stories of whole neighborhoods forced to leave under threat of death. That sort of exagerration is commonplace where old hatreds fester. The main reason for the gradual catholicization of many neighborhoods is simple demographics, as I said -- the Catholic birth rate is significantly higher.

And with reference to your first point, the reason I refer to events that long ago, is that they may be old grievances, but they have never been allowed to fade away into memory. For example, in the U.S., the last significant instance we have of American Indians fighting whites was at Wounded Knee in 1890; over a century ago. Since that time, Whites and Indians have learned to coexist, and if things have not always been smooth, and Indians have not always prospered, at least there has been no ongoing violence. Consequently, if some Indian group formed a terrorist cell and started attacking whites, citing the massacres of the Indian Wars as grievances, we would indeed condemn them for dredging up ancient history. In Northern Ireland, by contrast, there has been no long period of peace when people could finally put the past behind them. Violence has been endemic almost continuously ever since the 17th century. It's subsided a bit, from time to time, but has never died away entirely. People keep the old hatreds alive on both sides, and each act of violence is justified as a retaliation for some act by the other side, going back in an almost unbroken line to the transplantation. The acts back then are not ancient history, insulated from the present by the intervening centuries; they are the start of a continuous tradition which still gets perpetuated to this day. And the Orange Order is one of the groups doing the perpetuating.

And you have also proven you can also ignore the central point in order to nitpick over the details. That point, again, is that no matter who started it, and how far back it goes, the sectarian hatreds that exist will only disappear eventually, if people can at least try to put old differences aside, and a big, big part of that is not engaging in deliberately provocative behavior. No matter how you try to justify it or defend it, marching through Catholic neighborhoods every year, on the anniversary of a military defeat that relegated Catholics to generations of official discrimination and political disenfranchisement, and singing songs which portray Catholics and "Popery" as evils, is not helpful. It perpetuates old hatreds and grievances. It doesn't help mend them.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Perinquus just a wee question, have you ever seen an Orange Parade beyond the snippits of the worst parts on the news? When parading in catholic areas Loyalist Flute bands and forbidden from playing any offensive tunes, they are restricted to playing hymns only and a ruling was recently taken that bands are no longer allowed to display paramilitary flags or emblems on their uniforms. Any band who breaks these rules is barred from playing for any marching organisation which included the Apprentice Boys of Derry, the Arch Purple Insitiution and the Royal Black Preceptory. Also any member that gives into his own prejudice and causes offence to the people living in the area of the parade are immediately thrown out of the ranks and later expelled from the Order, something i saw personally on a parade in the Nationalist lower Ormeau Road,

Ignore the fact over 90% or orange parades take place without anyone batting an eyelid it's just those unfortunate ones in North Belfast and Portadown that have become political football for the bickering kids we call our elected representatives. Ignore the fact that there are dozens of parades in the Republic without incident, even ignore the fact that

The History of The Grand Orange Lodge Of Ireland

While I have lost a lot of sympathy for the Order after what I consider inciting riot on Saturday they are not the only ones to blame. It was only a few weeks ago that Nationalists went on the riot and attacked several interface areas because Glasgow Rangers beat Glasgow Celtic, of course that never appears on CNN because god forbid it look like the Catholic Nationalists are biggots too.
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MKSheppard
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Post by MKSheppard »

SirNitram wrote:Riiiiiight. Just Shep trolling around again, no change..
Actually you got to wonder about how superior the British
system of fighting terrorism is. See, Britain doesn't have
the death penalty; they abolished it even for High Treason
a bit back because of the EU. Now, having no death penalty
when fighting domestic terrorists wouldn't be much of a
problem since you can just throw them in gaol for life or
20 years...

The big problem with that approach is that the British prison
system is woefully incompetent when it comes to containing
and preventing escapes by political prisoners.

HMP Maze was supposed to be the best maximum security prison
in the Continent, yet:

1.) In October 1974, continued confrontation between prisoners and the Maze
authorities culminated in the Provisional IRA, and the Official IRA,
setting fire to every compound in the prison except the two which held
Loyalist prisoners.

2.) In September 1983, 38 Republican prisoners successfully escaped from
the Maze, although 19 were quickly recaptured. One prison officer died of
injuries sustained during the escape. To date 4 remain at large.

3.) In 1993 two Prison Officers were stripped naked and covered with paint
in a wing, and shots were fired into the homes of other prison staff. Later
that year there were riots by Loyalist prisoners at the Maze, and a Prison
Officer was shot dead in his home in retaliation for the subsequent lock-up.

4.) There were further major disturbances at the Maze in March 1995, when
Loyalist prisoners rioted following a search by prison officers. The riot
caused extensive damage to one H Block, and about 200 officers suffered
from smoke inhalation or other injury, resulting in lengthy periods of
sick absence.

5.) In March 1997 Republican prisoners dug a tunnel from a cell on a segregated
wing and disposed of the debris in two adjoining cells. Ultimately the escape
attempt was a failure, because the tunnel was discovered by a dog handler,
following an external collapse.

6.) On 10 December 1997 prisoner Liam Averill, who had served two years of a
life sentence, escaped under cover of the Provisional IRA children's party.

7.) On 27 December 1997 Prisoner Billy Wright, the leader of the LVF faction
at the Maze, was shot and killed in the forecourt of an H Block while being
transported to the visits complex. Three members of the Irish National Liberation
Army faction surrendered themselves and their weapons and were subsequently
convicted of the murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. They were later
released under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act resulting from the Good
Friday Agreement.

Now, seeing as HMP Maze wasn't as break-free or secure as they'd claimed,
Britain was faced with a quandary. They couldn't keep domestic terrorists
contained, so their solution was simple: utilize the Special Air Service
to simply kill terrorists to get around the death penalty limitation.

By contrast, Gitmo has been very trouble free, when people go in they don't
come out unless we let them go free. Therefore we are much more experienced
than the British in containing terrorists.
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MKSheppard
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Post by MKSheppard »

What I can't understand is why the British completely ignored past experience in dealing with sensitive political prisoners when "The
Troubles" began. If Saint Helena was good enough to hold the Tyrant
of Europe, Napoleon Bonaparte, it should be good enough to hold
a couple hundred Marxist terrorists in a safe, secure, and very remote
location far away from any possible sympathizers.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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