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I personally did not like the ending to DS9. IIRC, the lady founder agreed to stand trial for war crimes after the Dominion surrendered and that was that. But what happened afterwards? Was she simply imprisoned? Was she executed? In either case, by whom? Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire?

The lady Founder made it pretty clear in the last episode before she surrended that the Founders would gladly die and the alliance victory would be 'bittersweet' as the alliance would have lost so many lives. Seems to me that the Founders were racist towards solids and were hellbent on genocide or slavery of solid races throughout the war. Section 51 came up with a virus that would kill every single Founder and was genocide in Siskos opinion. So, eye for an eye but it was ultimately stopped.

Wouldn't all this come into play? Seriously, the Federation may have to live up to certain standards, but would the wounds from the war be rather emotional from their billions of citizens who lost loved ones? One Founder...standing for trial of the entire Dominion while the Founders were cured and hardly any of the Founders themselves were killed? Nothing is mentioned of the Vortas or Dominion Soliders fate.

Seems rather ridiculous that only one Founder would stand trial for the entire war and that it would fly with the populous of the alliance.

Thoughts?

AlphaOmega wrote:The lady Founder made it pretty clear in the last episode before she surrended that the Founders would gladly die and the alliance victory would be 'bittersweet' as the alliance would have lost so many lives.

One can only marvel at the levels of stupidity that statement of hers represents.

What're you talking about? She didn't say the Founders would gladly die, she said:

KIRA
This war's over -- you've lost.

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
Have I? I think you'll find that
neither the Jem'Hadar nor the
Breen would agree with that
assessment. They'll fight to the
last man.

KIRA
What will that accomplish?

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
Isn't it obvious?

FEMALE SHAPE-SHIFTER
You may win this war,
colonel... but I promise you,
by the time it's over, you will
have lost so many ships... so
many lives -- that your "victory"
will taste as bitter as defeat.


She was talking about the Jem Hadar/Breen orbiting Cardassia - they would fight to the end. Nothing about the Founders giving their lives or anything like that.

What struck me as puzzling about that exchange is the Founder being nervous about the Alpha Quadrant powers invading the Gamma Quadrant and destroying the Great Link. Strikes me as extremely unlikely, unless the 2,800 ships from the Gamma Quadrant were a catatsophic loss- but even then, the Dominion ship-building capacity in Gamma should have been able to make up for them.

Vympel wrote:What struck me as puzzling about that exchange is the Founder being nervous about the Alpha Quadrant powers invading the Gamma Quadrant and destroying the Great Link. Strikes me as extremely unlikely, unless the 2,800 ships from the Gamma Quadrant were a catatsophic loss- but even then, the Dominion ship-building capacity in Gamma should have been able to make up for them.

There's also the possibility that with the wormhole closed to them, the Dominion elements in the GQ were involved in other operations of expansion beyond their pre-war borders. She may also have feared that the defeat of the AQ Dominion would lead to widespread unrest in the GQ, forcing the Dominion to deal both with unruly worlds and an Alliance taskforce. Indeed, in the DS9 relaunch, our first glimpse of post-series Odo is his disgust at the Founders having put down a post-war-inspired uprising on one of their worlds, if memory serves me.

While not canon, the novel relaunch offers this and other post-war possibilities. The Jem'Hadar and the Vorta are dismayed by the loss in the Alpha Quadrant, but the latter carry about business as normal while elements of the former seek ways to redeem their gods; this is a key plot point of the first post-series novels, the Avatar duology. Odo himself attempts to continue what began in Season 3's "The Abandoned" and redeem the Jem'Hadar by dispatching a Jem'Hadar on cultural and ambassadorial mission. Whether or not the experiences change this Jem'Hadar's viewpoints is something I won't spoil.

As to the Female Founder's fate, we learn in the novella Olympus Descending that the Feds chose not to execute, but imprison her for life in one of the most secure facilities in Starfleet. As to the rest of the Great Link...well, again, it's best if you ready the novella for yourself. I'm not going to spoil things, especially revelations on this scale...

Vympel wrote:What struck me as puzzling about that exchange is the Founder being nervous about the Alpha Quadrant powers invading the Gamma Quadrant and destroying the Great Link. Strikes me as extremely unlikely, unless the 2,800 ships from the Gamma Quadrant were a catatsophic loss- but even then, the Dominion ship-building capacity in Gamma should have been able to make up for them.

Yeah, that's the part that I had wondered about as well. One possible explaination was that she stated she was worried the Kingons and Romulans would go through the wormhole to destroy the Link, Odo said they were in no shape to do so and the Feds wouldn't allow it. Since both of those races utilize cloaks, they could send fleets into the Gamma Quadrant, locate the Founders new planet and try to destroy the Link from there.

That still raises some issues since the Dominion has sensor technology to cut through cloaks, but it's probably the scenario she was looking at.

vivftp wrote: Since both of those races utilize cloaks, they could send fleets into the Gamma Quadrant, locate the Founders new planet and try to destroy the Link from there.

That still raises some issues since the Dominion has sensor technology to cut through cloaks, but it's probably the scenario she was looking at.

Wasnt the truce enforced by the wormhoel aliens?

Surely if they were going to stop the Dominion attacking the AQ they would also stop any AQ powers from trying to sneak attack the Dominion.
Also I dont think Sisko would be too happy to let that happen wither even if the Prophets or whatever they are were.

Steel wrote:Wasnt the truce enforced by the wormhoel aliens?

Surely if they were going to stop the Dominion attacking the AQ they would also stop any AQ powers from trying to sneak attack the Dominion.
Also I dont think Sisko would be too happy to let that happen wither even if the Prophets or whatever they are were.

IIRC the Prophets didn't show much interest in the outside affairs, and only got involved when Sisko intervened in the wormhole. I don't think the Prophets would have stopped any ships going to the Gamma Quad, and I don't think they would have necessarily stopped any more ships coming to the Alpha Quad for that matter. It seems the Dominion was just so taken aback by the sudden loss of so many ships that they didn't risk it again. In the end, I don't recall any verbage from the Prophets stating they were halting war vessels from travelling through the wormhole.

apocolypse wrote: IIRC the Prophets didn't show much interest in the outside affairs, and only got involved when Sisko intervened in the wormhole. I don't think the Prophets would have stopped any ships going to the Gamma Quad, and I don't think they would have necessarily stopped any more ships coming to the Alpha Quad for that matter. It seems the Dominion was just so taken aback by the sudden loss of so many ships that they didn't risk it again. In the end, I don't recall any verbage from the Prophets stating they were halting war vessels from travelling through the wormhole.

In the episode where the Prophets and the Pah Wraiths were fighting their war on DS9 (where they took over Kira and Jakes bodies) Worf noted that the Prophets were the only thing keeping the Dominion from comming through the wormhole. This is the only reference after SOA that indicates the Prophets were actively participating in anything.

Steel, there really wasn't any official truce enforced by the Prophets - they just stopped the Dominion reinforcements from comming through because they were looking out for Bajors safety and also Siskos - those are the only things they really cared about and why they stopped the fleet in SOA. There's no indication that they would have given a crap if a fleet of Klingon or Romulan ships went into the GQ with the intent of killing the Founders. Sisko doesn't play into it much either since the female Founder didn't trust the Federation to hold back the Klingons and Romulans.

I'll be damned, I stand correct. Thanks.

i thought the prophets destroyed the gamma quadrant dominion

i believe Damar said that the listening posts were gone at least so i guess i just made up the rest

also i think a few of the section 41 episodes showed, or atleast hinted that the romulans were not going to accept peace without gaining some cardassian and breen territory although this is not dealt with in Nemesis

one question is where would the founders go? i assume the cardassians want rid of them now, maybe they could go live with the breen

i thought the prophets destroyed the gamma quadrant dominion

i believe Damar said that the listening posts were gone at least so i guess i just made up the rest

The Founders zapped the fleet coming through the wormhole, not the whole Dominion. Unless they packed up every last man, woman, and puddle of goo in those warships.

section 41

Section 31, but whatever...

one question is where would the founders go? i assume the cardassians want rid of them now, maybe they could go live with the breen

I dunno, maybe they could go back to the planets they controlled in the GQ ? Plus there were what, half a dozen shapeshifters on Cardassia, tops ?

I think it's always been implied that humans are the only species capable of real progress. When the Dominion War started, the Dominion had clear tactical and strategic advantages over the Federation. By the time it ended, those tactical advantages had been erased and the strategic advantages had been reduced thanks to the wormhole aliens and Federation technical advances. So LadyFounder may have been thinking that the Federation was a tide that they wouldn't be able to stop.

This brainbug of humans being soooooo special is quite prominent in Trek.

agreed

i was hoping at the end of DS9 that a new series would deal with the failing relations between the Feds, Cardies, Roms and Klingons with a return to the war scenes of DS9 and the 'dark' themes of spies, politics and genocide

instead we get Enterprise
which dosnt even cover the Earth/Romulan wars which i was so looking forward to

Try the DS9 novels.

'dark' themes
spies, politics and genocide

You've just described the last part of the ENT Xindi arc.

Darth Wong wrote:I think it's always been implied that humans are the only species capable of real progress. When the Dominion War started, the Dominion had clear tactical and strategic advantages over the Federation. By the time it ended, those tactical advantages had been erased and the strategic advantages had been reduced thanks to the wormhole aliens and Federation technical advances. So LadyFounder may have been thinking that the Federation was a tide that they wouldn't be able to stop.

This brainbug of humans being soooooo special is quite prominent in Trek.

Humans arent the only species in the Federation, there are 150 members.

Humans arent the only species in the Federation, there are 150 members.

Humans run the Navy, though. There's loads of alien crewmembers but all the hardware and procedures are Earth-centric.

I wonder if it's an Athenean system : member worlds can choose between paing their taxes in resources or ships, and most pick the lazy route of donating ore or something, leaving Earth to build up it's own fleet.

didn't the member states retain their own fleets?
Starfleet was simply the federal fleet

I think the vulcans at least had some of their own ships in TNG
however these could have been merely security ships ie. cops

There's two Vulcan junkers in TNG and two more standard ships with all-alien crews. That's it. Member worlds may keep their own defense fleets but anything exploration- or warfare- related is done with human-designed, human-named ships.

The crews, admiralty and government are far more diverse though.

TNG Reunification also mentions "Vulcan defense ships".

Vympel wrote:What struck me as puzzling about that exchange is the Founder being nervous about the Alpha Quadrant powers invading the Gamma Quadrant and destroying the Great Link. Strikes me as extremely unlikely, unless the 2,800 ships from the Gamma Quadrant were a catatsophic loss- but even then, the Dominion ship-building capacity in Gamma should have been able to make up for them.

Why is this puzzling? She's the conqueror who fears getting conquered. She just lost a war she felt she couldn't lose. And given her mentality, she probably thinks that the AQ races will want revenge on her fellow changelings.

Whether or not they're capable of mounting an invasion of the GQ is another matter. But the Founders are long-lived. She might fear a projected future decades from now.

Darth Wong wrote:
This brainbug of humans being soooooo special is quite prominent in Trek.

Don't forget, given time we will be able surpass the Q. This brainbug spoken from John De Lancies mouth. This brain bug isn't just confined to Trek, and its starting to bug me.

mr friendly guy wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:This brainbug of humans being soooooo special is quite prominent in Trek.

Don't forget, given time we will be able surpass the Q. This brainbug spoken from John De Lancies mouth. This brain bug isn't just confined to Trek, and its starting to bug me.

What, you mean John De Lancie as Q? Or... John De Lancie as John De Lancie?

Darth Wong wrote:This brainbug of humans being soooooo special is quite prominent in Trek.

Ehh, admitting that I rather like this one (and exploit it in other settings such as fantasy)...

But come to think of it, wasn't that sorta the point of Trek-according-to-Gene-Roddenberry? (Not validating him, since my opinion of him ain't that great.)

re: JdL -- WTF??

But come to think of it, wasn't that sorta the point of Trek-according-to-Gene-Roddenberry? (Not validating him, since my opinion of him ain't that great.)

The point of Trek was that humans could become better, not neccesarily the best. Humans weren't supposed to be all übergood and advanced, just better then what they are now - not bound by religion, not fighting amongst themselves, etc.

re: JdL -- WTF??

I'm guessing he only referred to the character's dialogue, not the man himself.