StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Something I've noticed for sometime on this board and message boards in general. People throw around terms like "idiot", "moron", et cetera like they are candy at people in versus debates and other such conversations. But I'm thinking, that's not really true, is it? I mean, for the most part, in all honest, most of the people who post on this message board aren't, in fact, stupid. On average, most of us are quite bright. In fact, often times people are called idiots (particularly in versus debates) not because they are actually stupid, but because they were unaware of some minuta of the subject they were discussing or hadn't read a particular book or novel or weren't watching the television show/movie in question for analysis and didn't pick up on the thing that they are being bellowed at.

For instance, believe it or not, most people don't watch StarWars looking for minor details and haven't read the hundreds of books in the EU or any of the technical manuals. So how much sense does it make to say to someone who's just passing through who've seen the movies and not much else "Well, according to the book 'StarWars: Incredible Cross Sections Episode 2', the heavy turbolasers on the Acclimator Space Transport have a firepower of 200 gigatons per shot, you fucking idiot! I can't believe how stupid you are that you didn't know that! Did you go to school on the short bus, or something, you fucking asshat?" Not very much sense, I'm afraid. No wonder the Simpson's created the Comic Book Guy for us or the three nerds where Homer went to college that were bitching with someone online about who was better Picard or Kirk.

Further, I've heard people called idiots (myself included) for pointing out that not everything falls under Suspension of Disbelief and that things in movies/television half the time happen in such a way for an out of universe reason. This is not a stupid or foolish thing. In fact, it's absolutely true. Things in movies and television do often have no in-universe reason for being how they are and cannot be rationalized by way of the show. Moviephiles tend to understand this and take great pleasure in finding out things like that the jet exhausts in the motion model of Corban Dallas' taxi cab in "The Fifth Element" were, in fact, made of spray painted wheel pasta. Pointing out these facts does not make a person stupid at all. All it does is violate a taboo of the board, which isn't a sign of foolishness or low intelligence.

So I'd like to append a new definition to the term "idiot" to the Webster entry, just for us.

Main Entry: id·i·ot
Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private; akin to Latin suus one's own -- more at SUICIDE
1 usually offensive : a person affected with idiocy
2 : a foolish or stupid person
3 : a person unaware of the minutae of a science fiction or fantasy series, the internal "understood" rules of the message board, military history or hardware, geopolitical history, arcane economics theory, mathematics, or science, thus worthy of scorn.
See: moron, fucking moron, asshat, cocklicker, retard, DarkStar, clownshoes, donkey fucker, douchebag

Gil Hamilton wrote:Something I've noticed for sometime on this board and message boards in general. People throw around terms like "idiot", "moron", et cetera like they are candy at people in versus debates and other such conversations. But I'm thinking, that's not really true, is it? I mean, for the most part, in all honest, most of the people who post on this message board aren't, in fact, stupid. On average, most of us are quite bright. In fact, often times people are called idiots (particularly in versus debates) not because they are actually stupid, but because they were unaware of some minuta of the subject they were discussing or hadn't read a particular book or novel or weren't watching the television show/movie in question for analysis and didn't pick up on the thing that they are being bellowed at.

Personally, I will only be rude in a debate, if the person continually refuses to debate in a rational manner, or if a person is deliberatly being deceptive. Additionally, if someone's going to debate SW vs ST on this board, they're supposed to read the main site. Nothing is more irritating than some jackass who doesn't even glance at the main site, and posts something like "T3h enterprise is immune to lazers!!!!!!!!!!11111111"

For instance, believe it or not, most people don't watch StarWars looking for minor details and haven't read the hundreds of books in the EU or any of the technical manuals. So how much sense does it make to say to someone who's just passing through who've seen the movies and not much else "Well, according to the book 'StarWars: Incredible Cross Sections Episode 2', the heavy turbolasers on the Acclimator Space Transport have a firepower of 200 gigatons per shot, you fucking idiot! I can't believe how stupid you are that you didn't know that! Did you go to school on the short bus, or something, you fucking asshat?" Not very much sense, I'm afraid. No wonder the Simpson's created the Comic Book Guy for us or the three nerds where Homer went to college that were bitching with someone online about who was better Picard or Kirk.

If someone is going to debate sci-fi, then they need to look at the evidence in detail. If they're not interested enough to do that, than they shouldn't try to debate the subject.

Further, I've heard people called idiots (myself included) for pointing out that not everything falls under Suspension of Disbelief and that things in movies/television half the time happen in such a way for an out of universe reason. This is not a stupid or foolish thing. In fact, it's absolutely true. Things in movies and television do often have no in-universe reason for being how they are and cannot be rationalized by way of the show. Moviephiles tend to understand this and take great pleasure in finding out things like that the jet exhausts in the motion model of Corban Dallas' taxi cab in "The Fifth Element" were, in fact, made of spray painted wheel pasta. Pointing out these facts does not make a person stupid at all. All it does is violate a taboo of the board, which isn't a sign of foolishness or low intelligence.

Yes, but suspension of disbelief dictates that we examine certain pieces of fiction as if they really happened.

If we start second guessing ourselves, and saying "Ohh, but maybe the author didn't mean it to be that way", then no debate will take place, because we'll never resolve what is considered "real" evidence, and what was a mistake on the part of the author.

So I'd like to append a new definition to the term "idiot" to the Webster entry, just for us.

Main Entry: id·i·ot
Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private; akin to Latin suus one's own -- more at SUICIDE
1 usually offensive : a person affected with idiocy
2 : a foolish or stupid person
3 : a person unaware of the minutae of a science fiction or fantasy series, the internal "understood" rules of the message board, military history or hardware, geopolitical history, arcane economics theory, mathematics, or science, thus worthy of scorn.
See: moron, fucking moron, asshat, cocklicker, retard, DarkStar, clownshoes, donkey fucker, douchebag

Wow, I bet you feel clever.

Arbitrary mean-spiritedness is a time-honored traditional at this board, young man.

*shakes finger*

Gil Hamilton wrote:Something I've noticed for sometime on this board and message boards in general. People throw around terms like "idiot", "moron", et cetera like they are candy at people in versus debates and other such conversations. But I'm thinking, that's not really true, is it? I mean, for the most part, in all honest, most of the people who post on this message board aren't, in fact, stupid.

I don't know, I prefer calling out particular body parts or bodily secretions, or maybe some particular activities not usually performed in public, rather than using tame words like "idiot".







PS: IIRC you are also ASVS member, ain't you? I'm not a member myself (no ISP has newsgroup server in the country I live ) but I read Dalton's ASVS FUQ page a lot (particularly Chuck's Gospel), and Wayne Poe's hatemail page as well!! I think, compared to those, SD.net is relatively tame (except of Mike, I guess).

Joe wrote: *shakes finger*

which one?

Towards Gil. Sarcastically, of course, because I kind of agree with him, honestly.

observer_20000 wrote: blah blah blah
Wow, I bet you feel clever.

HA! Jesus Christ you are an idiot! talk about a perfect example to go with the definition.

*put's oberver_2000 picture next to Gil's definition.

observer_20000 wrote:Personally, I will only be rude in a debate, if the person continually refuses to debate in a rational manner, or if a person is deliberatly being deceptive. Additionally, if someone's going to debate SW vs ST on this board, they're supposed to read the main site. Nothing is more irritating than some jackass who doesn't even glance at the main site, and posts something like "T3h enterprise is immune to lazers!!!!!!!!!!11111111"

Sure, it's a bit irritating for someone to post that, but so what? That isn't the point. The point of this thread is how people, and I'm borrowing this phrase from Joe since it's as accurate as I could say it, seem to make arbitrary mean-spiritedness the standard operating procedure, even over completely trivial things.

If someone is going to debate sci-fi, then they need to look at the evidence in detail. If they're not interested enough to do that, than they shouldn't try to debate the subject.

How exactly are we ever going to get new decent members under that criteria? Believe it or not, most people have only seen the movies and televisions shows and start by seeing some link this this page. Very few people start by having the movies, most of the EU, and all the technical manuals memorized for StarWars or any other series. The only reason I know most of the stuff on many sci-fi debates is because I heard it here or on Spacebattles. Blasting someone for ignorance right out of the starting gate will just convince them that we've got nothing but a herd of Comic Book Guys who act like assholes immediately and they'll move on.

Furthermore, I've gotten out of the versus debate game, for the most part, because of this, and so have alot of people. Right off the top of my head, I can think of a really worthy while member that has been lost simply because any time someone comes up with an opinion that goes against the grain of the board, people descend like a swarm of piranhas and blast them over a completely trivial topic? That's a shame, because she was a cool girl whom I still talk to outside the board.

Really, do people act like this in real life? If someones method of having a discussion is to be the biggest asshole they can be and if anyone points this out yell "STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE!", they'd get a real-time punch to the jaw. It's almost cowardly, in a way, because the only reason people act like such assholes is that the internet provides them the anonymity and distance to be as assholish as they want

Yes, but suspension of disbelief dictates that we examine certain pieces of fiction as if they really happened.

If we start second guessing ourselves, and saying "Ohh, but maybe the author didn't mean it to be that way", then no debate will take place, because we'll never resolve what is considered "real" evidence, and what was a mistake on the part of the author.

I understand full well why people are so gung ho over suspension of disbelief. That's not the point. The point is that it is by no means stupid to no suspend disbelief when it comes to television or movies, simply because in the end, they are television and movies which not even the people who made them put nearly as much anal-retentive thought into it (save people like JRR Tolkien) as many sci-fi/fantasy fans do. By no means does to represent a lack of intelligence on the part of the person who doesn't do it all that rigidly.

Yet, any person who wanders into this board and dares utter that a mistake in scaling is just that gets attacked by half a dozen people, as though they were as dim as a cheerleader who never stopped clapping, because they violated a trivial board taboo. If you were watching a monster movie with a buddy of yours in person and he said "Heh, check it out, you can see the zipper on Godzilla's suit there." would you immediately yell at him "NO YOU CAN'T! SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF DICTATES THAT THE ZIPPER ISN'T REALLY THERE BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T BE THERE IF THIS WAS REAL, YOU FUCKING IDIOT! YOU ARE SUCH A RETARD!". You'd very quickly find yourself without friends. What makes arbitrary mean-spiritedness any more acceptable here than in person, aside from the anonymous nature of the internet to hide behind?

Wow, I bet you feel clever.

Sure do.

I should be the first to point out that I'm guilt of random acts of assholishness, myself, so I suppose that I've got slightly less room to point to this all, but I figured that it needed addressing. I've already seen a bunch of potentially excellent members who've quit in disgust because many people don't seem to be able to discuss things in a civilized manner, including multiple girl members, people we want to attract to this board (because a healthy female population on a message board is always a good thing and something I know the higher ups have been trying to encourage). It could only be an improvement if people didn't jump the gun and go to full flame war mode at the first sign of someone disagreeing with them, or didn't "Me Too" swarm them. And example of this was a while back, I remember someone stating they were a vegetarian and looking for vegetarian beers (since the brewing process of many beers involves some animal products, like fish scales, being used). Immediately, some asshats jumped him over it, demanding that he justify being so irrational as to be a vegetarian. This invokes the obvious question "Who the fuck cares if he is?" Similar was a while back someone was talking about a ouija board experience and she and the person defending her got downright mobbed over it (see question from before).

I mean, is that the way people should act? I know I'd never talk like that to anyone in person except if they were actively being pushy on me (like a person passing out Chick Tracts and not leaving me alone on the bus) and even then you can smile, ignore, and "Live and Let Live", simply because of the trivialness of the situation (when they try to do it in legislation, then it's time to fight).

Gil Hamilton wrote:Sure, it's a bit irritating for someone to post that, but so what? That isn't the point. The point of this thread is how people, and I'm borrowing this phrase from Joe since it's as accurate as I could say it, seem to make arbitrary mean-spiritedness the standard operating procedure, even over completely trivial things.

Ok, fair enough. I can agree that people shouldn't go into full flamewar mode at the drop of a hair.

The way I see it is, if someone does make a trivial error while scaling a ship, or whatever, I don't think they should have to bathe themselves in asbestos. But I do think you are exagerrating on how easily most members are incited to start a flame war. At least from what I've seen.

But when debating someone, who does nothing but ignore your points, and repeats himself, or people who deliberately misinterpret evidence to try and help their point, they deserve whatever flaming they get.

How exactly are we ever going to get new decent members under that criteria? Believe it or not, most people have only seen the movies and televisions shows and start by seeing some link this this page. Very few people start by having the movies, most of the EU, and all the technical manuals memorized for StarWars or any other series. The only reason I know most of the stuff on many sci-fi debates is because I heard it here or on Spacebattles. Blasting someone for ignorance right out of the starting gate will just convince them that we've got nothing but a herd of Comic Book Guys who act like assholes immediately and they'll move on.

Perhaps you aren't aware of this announcment?

Furthermore, I've gotten out of the versus debate game, for the most part, because of this, and so have alot of people. Right off the top of my head, I can think of a really worthy while member that has been lost simply because any time someone comes up with an opinion that goes against the grain of the board, people descend like a swarm of piranhas and blast them over a completely trivial topic? That's a shame, because she was a cool girl whom I still talk to outside the board.

Ok, well I'm not sure what thread or member you're talking about. The sci-fi forums don't seem to be the vile flame pits you're describing. If it was a N&P or SLAM thing, then it's guaranteed to generate hostility. People tend to get very defensive about political/ethical views.

Really, do people act like this in real life? If someones method of having a discussion is to be the biggest asshole they can be and if anyone points this out yell "STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE!", they'd get a real-time punch to the jaw. It's almost cowardly, in a way, because the only reason people act like such assholes is that the internet provides them the anonymity and distance to be as assholish as they want

I doubt that people get into debates in real life as much as they do on internet BBS'. Also, they don't tend to last as long. Think about it.

If you and a co-worker are discussing something at the water cooler, and you disagree with a viewpoint he has, at most you'll say you disagree, and that'll be it. You'll sort of "agree to disagree". Since a single discussions can go on for weeks on the internet, they get to evolve further, and people actually get to exchange points, unlike real life discussions.

Additionally, people tend to try and avoid discussing these kinds of things in real life, because they can have real life reprecussions.

If it's some random person on the internet, you won't have to worry about, say, your wife being angry at you, because you're an atheist and her father is an old fashioned Christian.

I understand full well why people are so gung ho over suspension of disbelief. That's not the point. The point is that it is by no means stupid to no suspend disbelief when it comes to television or movies, simply because in the end, they are television and movies which not even the people who made them put nearly as much anal-retentive thought into it (save people like JRR Tolkien) as many sci-fi/fantasy fans do. By no means does to represent a lack of intelligence on the part of the person who doesn't do it all that rigidly.

Yet, any person who wanders into this board and dares utter that a mistake in scaling is just that gets attacked by half a dozen people, as though they were as dim as a cheerleader who never stopped clapping, because they violated a trivial board taboo. If you were watching a monster movie with a buddy of yours in person and he said "Heh, check it out, you can see the zipper on Godzilla's suit there." would you immediately yell at him "NO YOU CAN'T! SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF DICTATES THAT THE ZIPPER ISN'T REALLY THERE BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T BE THERE IF THIS WAS REAL, YOU FUCKING IDIOT! YOU ARE SUCH A RETARD!". You'd very quickly find yourself without friends. What makes arbitrary mean-spiritedness any more acceptable here than in person, aside from the anonymous nature of the internet to hide behind?

If one were to post in a thread about, say TDIC, and say something about the writers meaning for the surface of the planet to be more damaged than we observed, then he's asking for it. The only way to get any meaningful results out of a sci-fi techology debate, is to suspend disbelief.

It's not necessarily stupid to discuss CGI mistakes and the like, in fact, I'd be just the type to point out something like Godzilla's zipper, and the like. But that kind of stuff has no place in a thread that exists to debate sci-fi technology.

We don't really mean it; we're just assholes, you moron.

Gil Hamilton wrote:<snippy>

I know I've been red-in-the-face ashamed of people's behavior on this board before.

personally i try not to grind into someone unless they start using the broken record technique. single thing that pisses me off the most when someone ignores a refuted point and keeps bringing it back up. if it's something that's generally common knowledge i'll point it out, but otherwise won't blast into 'em unless they continuously rely on fallacious reasoning. well . . .for newbies at any rate.

Sometimes, people are too quick on the trigger. But they are not expected to read hundreds of novels, all of the tech books, etc. They are only expected to read THE MAIN FUCKING WEBSITE, and a lot of them don't even bother doing that. So no, I do not intend to start treating idiots with kid gloves because they're too goddamned lazy to read the main website but simultaneously too fucking arrogant to admit that they don't know the subject well enough to argue about it. And if you think that people who fit these criteria are a good source of new members, you're on drugs.

Also, I tend to reserve my worst ire for those who spout misconceptions which would be easily rectified from exposure to real-life knowledge, such as the pinheads who think that reverse-engineering is easy or who ignore the first law of thermodynamics.

As for your assertion that most people are intelligent, that is simply untrue. Half of the population is downright stupid, and of the other half, a lot of them are ignorant.

Gil Hamilton wrote:So how much sense does it make to say to someone who's just passing through who've seen the movies and not much else "Well, according to the book 'StarWars: Incredible Cross Sections Episode 2', the heavy turbolasers on the Acclimator Space Transport have a firepower of 200 gigatons per shot, you fucking idiot!

Considering that the "you fucking idiot" usually comes out after they've ignored the point at least once, I'd say its perfectly reasonable.

Darth Wong wrote:Also, I tend to reserve my worst ire for those who spout misconceptions which would be easily rectified from exposure to real-life knowledge, such as the pinheads who think that reverse-engineering is easy or who ignore the first law of thermodynamics.

Its when ever the retards start arguing about "virsues getting past the filewall" or some shit like that, is when I want to go and do something rash.

I'm usually tolerant of computer ignorance. Not everyone knows a lot about computers. I do get annoyed when people think they know a lot yet really know nothing and then try and spout that knowledge everywhere as if they were experts.

Even worse, some of them will bury their heads in the sand when someone who really knows WTF they're talking about comes along.

phongn wrote:I'm usually tolerant of computer ignorance. Not everyone knows a lot about computers. I do get annoyed when people think they know a lot yet really know nothing and then try and spout that knowledge everywhere as if they were experts.

Its these types of people who do the real damage. This(post before mine, by "CDS") is probaly a good example of that.

Even worse, some of them will bury their heads in the sand when someone who really knows WTF they're talking about comes along.

I agree with that one.

I don't have alot of sympathy for IT guys that act like that skit from SNL that bitch and moan about ignorant users and the like. The reason you're at your job is to help people with computers. The reason why they might need help is because they don't fucking read network router manuals with one hand on their cocks. How about not giving us attitude and I won't give you shit about your bad ass hygeine cockmunch.

ggs wrote:

phongn wrote:I'm usually tolerant of computer ignorance. Not everyone knows a lot about computers. I do get annoyed when people think they know a lot yet really know nothing and then try and spout that knowledge everywhere as if they were experts.

Its these types of people who do the real damage. This(post before mine, by "CDS") is probaly a good example of that.

Take it up with google

Stravo wrote:I don't have alot of sympathy for IT guys that act like that skit from SNL that bitch and moan about ignorant users and the like.

phongn and myself were taking about people who think they know that they are doing when they dont.

The reason you're at your job is to help people with computers. The reason why they might need help is because they don't fucking read network router manuals with one hand on their cocks. How about not giving us attitude and I won't give you shit about your bad ass hygeine cockmunch.

I take it you havent have much luck with IT people.

ggs wrote:
I take it you havent have much luck with IT people.

I've actually had fairly good experiences with our IT people here at the firm but there's one annoying little prick who just sighs, rolls his eyes and talks down to you when fixing something. Everyone else is all service with a smile, chit chat the occasisonal "You have no idea how often this fuck up happens with users." and its generally a great experience. There's no need to demean someone (I especially despise it when I see him pull his act with a secretary) while doing you're fucking job.

Sometimes, people are too quick on the trigger. But they are not expected to read hundreds of novels, all of the tech books, etc. They are only expected to read THE MAIN FUCKING WEBSITE, and a lot of them don't even bother doing that. So no, I do not intend to start treating idiots with kid gloves because they're too goddamned lazy to read the main website but simultaneously too fucking arrogant to admit that they don't know the subject well enough to argue about it. And if you think that people who fit these criteria are a good source of new members, you're on drugs.

Also, I tend to reserve my worst ire for those who spout misconceptions which would be easily rectified from exposure to real-life knowledge, such as the pinheads who think that reverse-engineering is easy or who ignore the first law of thermodynamics.

As for your assertion that most people are intelligent, that is simply untrue. Half of the population is downright stupid, and of the other half, a lot of them are ignorant.

Half of what country. Just US? Or are others like that.

Now do you mean they are stupid stupid, or just stupid in one thing. I am stupid in math, but I wouldn't think I am stupid in everything. I don't get what you are saying.

Darth Wong wrote:Sometimes, people are too quick on the trigger. But they are not expected to read hundreds of novels, all of the tech books, etc. They are only expected to read THE MAIN FUCKING WEBSITE, and a lot of them don't even bother doing that. So no, I do not intend to start treating idiots with kid gloves because they're too goddamned lazy to read the main website but simultaneously too fucking arrogant to admit that they don't know the subject well enough to argue about it. And if you think that people who fit these criteria are a good source of new members, you're on drugs.

I wasn't just talking about StarWars, I was talking in general and using StarWars as an example. Like the time that Tevar mentioned to have a oujia board experience and you grilled and flamed her for several pages in a thread like she had kicked your dog, when in fact the obvious thing to do is shrug your shoulders and go "Eh". You don't believe in oujia boards, but who cares if she does? It's not like it actually, in fact, makes her a stupid person. At worst, it is eccentric or silly, but perfectly bright people have been known to believe really bizarre things before (think of a UFO enthusiast for example). Nor does it actually effect your life in any way. So why the ire? I mean, it's not like they've actually insulted you and you've got nothing riding on it. In real terms, much of the stuff we talk about on this board is trivia. It really honestly worth blasting anyone over.

Seriously, just think about how you would act if you were talking to someone in person. If a person says something that you consider ignorant, do you scream and smack the Golden Light of Reason into them or are you civil? I'd hope the latter. It's not about "treating people with kids gloves", it's that being civilized doesn't stop when you log on to your computer.

And yes, it has cost good members before and will probably continue to do so, because chances are that you will never find a person, even a smart one, that doesn't have some quirk in their personality that has them believing in something eccentric that the angry debators on this board consider "ignorance". It's half the reason we get so few female members who stick around or take part in any actual debate, because the moment they say something, a pack of asshats descend like a swarm of piranhas, and needlessly flame, which no one would bother sticking around for, but women in particular. I mean, who would stick around on a board where a casual belief in wiccan, for instance, would draw six angry assholes calling the person stupid and viciously demanding that they are stupid? Or someone wandering into the N&P forum, posting something about economics theory (which is a subject that five economists will give you twenty answers for, many of them contradictory) and get "HOW THE HELL COULD YOU BE SO STUPID?!". More to the title of the thread, it doesn't make them less intelligent, they could be bright capable people with alot to offer our little community, but they won't stick around with people immediately going to full flamewar mode like they have a thousand bucks riding on the conclusion of the debate.

Also, I tend to reserve my worst ire for those who spout misconceptions which would be easily rectified from exposure to real-life knowledge, such as the pinheads who think that reverse-engineering is easy or who ignore the first law of thermodynamics.

Sure, it's not a bright position to take, but is that any reason to flame them? You once complained that you've encountered lots of people who you've dressed down on a topic, then five minutes later you catch them making the same argument like yours didn't happen. You want to know why? Chances are, they stopped listening to you the moment you started cursing and telling how stupid and ignorant you thought they were, and thus none of the facts or explainations you've said had sunk in due to them checking you off in their brain as an asshole. As a general rule, people don't listen when someone is blasting them, they turn their brains off and let it pass. However, they might have learned something if you didn't immediately skip past personablity and go straight to full on Marine Corp beachhead. That's human nature, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and people listen more often if you show some respect and are civil. Take Kurenko, for example. I have never once seen him do the online version of raise his voice or be anything other than a complete gentleman, even when he knows vastly more about a subject than the person who's argument is correcting. That's respectable, and what he says sinks in. Or seanrobertson, whom I've hard several discussions with on issues of StarTrek, but at no point did he ever get angry or even lose his sense of humor, so we could joke with each other in the thread even after we take opposite views. I don't know about anyone else, but that's when I want to hear what the man has to say. But Incredible Hulking a person just doesn't work if you want people to hear what you have to say, even if you think they are being dumb.

As I've said, we'd probably have a larger pool of worthwhile posters if people realized that. Particularly female ones, which this board sorely needs. Women make everything better, after all, but they don't deal well with getting their head chewed off at the first sign of weakness. You can poll the female members of the board that we do have on that.

As for your assertion that most people are intelligent, that is simply untrue. Half of the population is downright stupid, and of the other half, a lot of them are ignorant.

Actually, I was refering to the population of this message board, where most of the member are, as a general rule, pretty bright guys in real life.

Sorry...if they think because telling them they are a fucking moron dissuades them, then really no point in arguing because I've had more then my share of civilized people when it comes down to it, will break down, scream and call all sorts of names to insure their point is brought forth.

When arguing I am not here to make a friend in a debate where your position is wrong.

If your position is a subjective one between us...then fine I have no problem. If it's one where there is a clear objective line and I've shown you how to find out how I came to my conclusion that Gravity, while a theory, will take more then your ignorant say so to prove me wrong. Then I will call ou a moron.

Profanity doesn't mean a damned thing, and calling a person a moron when they are amply demonstrating so is not a bad thing to do. I dislike and have always disliked dancing around and appeasing someone's feelings. If the situation is better for being diplomatic then so be it. But if the situation is to appease someone ego because they are being purposefully ignorant then sorry.

If they are doing it out a position of not knowing the subject then, fine I'll be nice and inform them what they should seek, where to find it, and what to read to futher their studies. But if they come blustering in like a moron thinking they've come upon a new source of wisdom that obviously has never been seen or heard of and are thinking they can refute things without providing proof and continue upon ignorance. I have no problem telling them they are a fucking idiot.

It's one thing to come in and want to learn and stumble...it's another to bluster like a jackass.