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Right, I've debated this one to many times based off of anecdotal evidence with friends, I was wondering if anyone had a catalogue of the various violations of the Prime Directive by Kirk and Picard, and why they did it because I am convinced that not only did Kirk actually have a better record in regards to the prime directive but that when he did violate it he violated it in the spirit of the Law instead of blindly (I.E. when it's the planet that's actually an asteroid and they violate it to save the people.) Any help here would be appreciated.

I don't have any examples, but it might be worthwhile to point out that Kirk's Prime Directive specifically applied only to primitive cultures, while Picard invokes it to avoid interfering with anybody, even neighboring powers. Thus, Kirk's actions in "A Taste of Armageddon" wasn't breaking the Prime Directive, because the people were technologically advanced.

Season 1 TOS

• -The Man Trap
  The last survivor of an intelligent though malevolent alien race that feeds off of salt is killed. There is a 'debate' of sorts about how killing this monster would result in an entire species' destruction - this is an argument put forward by an amoral cretin, and backed up by the monster itself masquerading as McCoy. Kirk rejects it because his men are dying.
  
  -Charlie X
  Actually the boots on the other foot - now it's the humans who are the technologically inferior race who the advanced alien race refused to interfere with. Charlie was returned to his people, whereupon he conducted chaos and mayhem until it became clear the Thasians had to intervene. Even though Kirk emotionally pleaded the boy belonged with his people he couldn't mount a convincing argument that he should not be isolated from humanity. In effect, the aliens observed a sort-of Prime Directive of their own before realising the folly of their ways, and correcting it.
  
  -Where No Man Has Gone Before
  -The Naked Time
  -The Enemy Within
  -What Are Little Girls Made Of?
  -Miri
  No mention of the PD. Miri is an interesting case because the kids were doomed to insanity and death if Kirk and co. didn't help them... which they did. (They were helping themselves of course)
  
  -Dagger Of The Mind
  -The Corbomite Maneuver
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -The Menagerie parts 1 and 2 and The Cage
  Another one of those 'boot on the other foot' scenarios. Captain Pike is subjected to many experiments by interfering alien mind masters - and we see that interstellar distances are not enough to restrict the Talosians' mind influence.
  
  -The Conscience of the King
  -Balance of Terror
  -Shore Leave
  
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -The Galileo Seven
  Spock acts like a buffoon in this episode, thinking that hostile aliens should not be interfered with and simply left alone. This is all well and good until those aliens start attacking your party. Spock acts like a snob and declares humans to be barbarians for daring to even contemplate retaliation - even though a firm backhand might scare off the natives long enough to effect repairs on the shuttle. Though the PD is not mentioned explicitly in this episode, the effects of slavish adherence to a non-interference directive are seen: two people's deaths.
  
  -The Squire of Gothos
  Yet another reverse scenario. This time the analogy is made that advanced beings look on lesser beings like we would look at an insect through a magnifying glass - and then pull it's legs off. However, this is probably a good case for having ethical rules for treating technologically inferior beings.
  
  -Arena
  PD - if it even exists at this early stage - doesn't prohibit retaliation against alien attacks. Nobody made any argument that hunting down the Gorn would violate the PD. An argument was made that unchecked territorial expansion was unwise and can be seen as a belligerent act by others.
  
  -Tommorow Is Yesterday
  Time travel episode. Usual junk about not changing the timeline etc.
  
  -Court-Martial
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -The Return of the Archons
  Kirk massively interferes with an entire culture to 'set it straight'. If there is a PD then it's not so slavishly adhered to to prevent this, or to punish Kirk for his violation of it.
  
  -Space Seed
  Not only does Kirk revive the low berthed crew of the Botany Bay, but he also brings them up to speed on the technology of the day - bet he kicked himself for that one. So apparently there's no violation of the PD for bringing pre-warp people up to date with modern technology.
  
  -A Taste Of Armageddon
  Kirk ends the war between Eminar VII and Vendikar... by promising to bomb them for real if they don't do as he says. This is a massive violation of the PD of Picard's day. Picard himself said that gunboat diplomacy was a relic of a bygone era in "Unification" (or he said something to that effect to Spock), however, it worked and the war ended. Note that also, the Federation and Starfleet had already sent Ambassador Fox to end this conflict. So interfering with this civilisation's conflicts is A-OK to the government of the day.
  
  -This Side of Paradise
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -The Devil in the Dark
  We see that deaths caused by indigenous alien beings results in hunting parties being drawn up. Spock argues that killing this alien would be a crime against science, due to its unique properties. Kirk overrules him, and later when Kirk is confronted by the Horta Spock forgets his earlier objection and implores that Kirk kill it. No mention whatsoever of a PD, Spock objects purely because he finds the alien fascinating and would welcome the opportunity to study it. The story obviously has a 'don't judge a book by it's cover' theme, as the Horta is intelligent and has legitimate grievances. That said Kirk brokers a peace deal between the miners and the Horta - a species who for all we know is pre-warp, so the PD doesn't object to this.
  
  -Errand of Mercy
  From outward appearances the Organians are a backward culture and have not progressed for centuries - Kirk offers them technology, education, medicine - he only asks that the Organians let him. Organia was a strategic planet in between the Klingon Empire and the Federation, so the PD obviously doesn't disallow negotiating with pre-warp civilisations. No-one objects to cultural contamination.
  
  -The Alternative Factor
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -The City on the Edge of Forever
  Yawn, another time travel episode.
  
  -Operation-Annihilate!
  No mention of the PD.

Season Two TOS

• -Amok Time
  Federation members have autonomy, but not to the extent that interference cannot occur in local customs. (Kirk's duel with Spock was not disallowed immediately by T'Pau or Kirk)
  
  -Who Mourns for Adonais?
  Another boot on the other foot scenario. Unethical interference of another culture is shown to be wrong when we are the victims.
  
  -The Changeling
  -Mirror Mirror
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -The Apple
  I don't recall this episode too well, but the fact is Kirk ended up destroying the god machine and freeing the natives, which it goes without saying would be a massive violation of the PD as Picard would interpret it.
  
  -The Doomsday Machine
  -Catspaw
  -I, Mudd
  -Metamorphosis
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -Journey to Babel
  Political intrigue rules the Federation (meaning they're not some utopian club of enlightened beings). Member worlds interfere with nonmember worlds covertly (Tellarites got rich off of the raiding of Coridan by space pirates, and they opposed Coridan's admission into the Federation on this basis - obviously the Federation holds the Prime Directive to be sacrosanct!).
  
  -Friday's Child
  The PD doesn't prevent Kirk from negotiating with a primitive culture that has something strategically valuable. The Klingons do the same.
  
  -The Deadly Years
  Territorial violations of Romulan space bring swift retaliation, but this is normal. No mention of the PD as such, but the idea of "lol let's not interfere with another race's territory" is reinforced sensibly.
  
  -Obsession
  -Wolf in the Fold
  -The Trouble With Tribbles
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -The Gamesters of Triskelion
  Another boot on the other foot scenario. So far we know that interfering with other primitive cultures is bad when we're the primitive ones.
  
  -A Piece of the Action
  Near as I can tell, this is the first time when a big deal was made out of 'cultural contamination'. It is extremely difficult to take this episode seriously, but we are expected to believe accidental contamination of a culture can lead to disastrous results. However, the tone of this episode is one of fun. So what if a book of gangsters was accidentally left behind a century ago? What kind of moron picks this up and imitates it to the Nth degree?
  
  -The Immunity Syndrome
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -A Private Little War
  A good episode about the dangers of interfering with a culture. Whereas a season ago the PD didn't really seem to rear it's ugly head at all, now it does. The Klingons have armed one faction who now preys on the other; the PD says to not interfere, but Kirk can't do that. He has to help Tyree, his old friend. But he doesn't supply overwhelming firepower like machine guns or phasers because that would likely be viewed as a more egregious violationg by his superiors. There is an implicit admission that if another space going civilisation interferes with another culture, then violating the PD to correct the balance is acceptable.
  
  -Return to Tommorow
  I don't remember this episode that well. I don't think there's any mention of the PD.
  
  -Patterns of Force
  The laughably infamous episode with the Space Nazis. Apparently some kind of Federation observer took it upon himself to interfere with a culture by promoting fascism without the racial bigotry and genocide - as though such a thing is even possible. The PD sounds like a reasonable idea in comparison, but even so Kirk is forced to interfere if for nothing else survival.
  
  -By Any Other Name
  Possibly the funniest episode in all of TOS. No mention of the PD however.
  
  -The Omega Glory
  Like Patterns of Force, dumb episode. However it started off good and only became unhinged at the very end. This episode shows that the PD is a good thing to uphold.
  
  -The Ultimate Computer
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -Bread and Circuses
  Actually quite good. The Roman did a good job of turning around Kirk's Prime Directive back on him. He acknowledges Kirk could flatten his empire into rubble, but there's that pesky little prime directive Kirk must uphold... unfortunately, like The Omega Glory, the last minute or so completely unhinges this episode.
  
  -Assignment: Earth
  Again with the time travel. Yawn.

Season 3 TOS

• -Spock's Brain
  Never seen it. A little afraid to, to be honest.
  
  -The Enterprise Incident
  The Federation is not above espionage with foreign powers. A century later Picard will say that the PD prevents he and the Federation from offering support to the legitimate government of Chancellor Gowron (whom Picard put on the seat for fuck's sake! Did the writers even stop to think about this?), an ally and strategic partner. It just goes to show that in TOS, the PD is depicted as a set of ethical guidelines detailing when you can and cannot interfere with another culture, while in the future ideologues like Picard violate them when it suits them (putting Gowron into power) and obey them when asked for help (supporting Gowron from powerplays from within the Klingon Empire and from without) and violate them AGAIN a few episodes later, when Picard doesn't return to the Federation with Spock arrested! Hypocrisy, thy name is Jean-Luc.
  
  -The Paradise Syndrome
  The crew happens upon a pleasant world harbouring a pleasant pre-warp civilisation that is in danger of being wiped out by an impending asteroid collision. Kirk and co. elects to save them. Obviously, the PD doesn't prevent humanitarian interference.
  
  -And The Children Shall Lead
  -Is There in Truth No Beauty?
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -Spectre of the Gun
  -Day of the Dove
  Another boot on the other foot scenario. Interesting that Kirk recklessly plows ahead at the start of Spectre of the Gun even though the buoy told him to fuck off.
  
  -For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched The Sky
  The PD doesn't prevent humanitarian interference even if it might result in cultural contamination.
  
  -The Tholian Web
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -Plato's Stepchildren
  Boot on the other foot scenario.
  
  -Wink of an Eye
  -The Empath
  I honestly don't remember anything more than vague recollections about these two episodes.
  
  -Elaan of Troyius
  Needless to say, the Federation is interfering with two planetary cultures without regard for 'contamination' or what have you. The Klingons have a vested interest in Troyius due to strategic reasons.
  
  -Whom Gods Destroy
  No mention of the PD.
  
  -Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
  Puke.
  
  -The Mark of Gideon
  -That Which Survives
  -The Lights of Zetar
  Don't remember any of them.
  
  -Requiem for Methuselah
  The PD doesn't prevent Kirk and co. from negotiating for urgently needed medicine. In Picard's day it would, but Picard would ignore it to give his crew the medicine... then obey it if the situation was reversed.
  
  -The Way to Eden
  Herbert!
  
  -The Clound Minders
  Never saw this episode, but I know what happens in it. Basically, Kirk and co. involve themselves in what is essentially a class struggle between workers and robber barons. This would be a massive violation of Picard's PD.
  
  -The Savage Curtain
  -All Our Yesterdays
  -Turnabout Intruder
  No mention of the PD.

I hope you're happy Straha! If you want a similar list for TNG you're fresh out of luck, because I can't be fucked doing one (nor am I as even remotely familiar with it than I am with TOS).

-A Taste Of Armageddon
Kirk ends the war between Eminar VII and Vendikar... by promising to bomb them for real if they don't do as he says. This is a massive violation of the PD of Picard's day. Picard himself said that gunboat diplomacy was a relic of a bygone era in "Unification" (or he said something to that effect to Spock), however, it worked and the war ended. Note that also, the Federation and Starfleet had already sent Ambassador Fox to end this conflict. So interfering with this civilisation's conflicts is A-OK to the government of the day.

Are you sure? I thought Fox was there just to initiate diplomatic relations between Eminiar and the Federation, and to establish trade agreements with Eminiar VII. I don't believe the Enterprise's mission was to end the war... at least, not until the Enterprise landing party was taken hostage.

Uraniun235 wrote:

-A Taste Of Armageddon
Kirk ends the war between Eminar VII and Vendikar... by promising to bomb them for real if they don't do as he says. This is a massive violation of the PD of Picard's day. Picard himself said that gunboat diplomacy was a relic of a bygone era in "Unification" (or he said something to that effect to Spock), however, it worked and the war ended. Note that also, the Federation and Starfleet had already sent Ambassador Fox to end this conflict. So interfering with this civilisation's conflicts is A-OK to the government of the day.

Are you sure? I thought Fox was there just to initiate diplomatic relations between Eminiar and the Federation, and to establish trade agreements with Eminiar VII. I don't believe the Enterprise's mission was to end the war... at least, not until the Enterprise landing party was taken hostage.

Tomayto tomahto:

KIRK (VO): Captain 's Log. Stardate 3192.1--The Enterprise is en route to star cluster NGC 321. Objective--to open diplomatic relations with the civilizations known to be there. We have sent a message to Eminiar7, principle planet of the star cluster, informing them of our friendly intentions. We are awaiting an answer.

KIRK: Nothing yet, Lieutenant?

UHURA: Nothing, Captain. Hailing frequencies are open.

FOX: Have you received an answer to your message yet, Captain?

KIRK: Nothing yet, Ambassador. We're awaiting a reply. Today's the first time we've had any evidence they've picked up our signal.

UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar 7. Sir, it's code 710.

KIRK: Are you sure?

UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.

FOX: Is that supposed to mean something?

KIRK: Code 710 means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet--no circumstances what so ever.

FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.

KIRK: Mr. Fox, it is their planet.

FOX: Captain, in the past 20 years, thousands of lives have been lost on this route--lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port, and I'm here to get it.

KIRK: By disregarding code 710, you might involve us in an interplanetary war.

FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.

KIRK: You are. I'm thinking about this ship, my crew.

FOX: I have my orders, Captain, and now you have yours. You will proceed on course. Achieve orbit status and Just leave the rest to me.
You're aware that my mission gives me the power of command.
I now exercise it. You will proceed on course. That's a direct order.

I emphasised two pieces of the text. The first implies what you said, that they're there only to establish diplomatic relations, however the second more or less implicitly states that Fox is there to put a stop to the conflict because it's affecting trade through the region.

Uraniun235 wrote:

-A Taste Of Armageddon
Kirk ends the war between Eminar VII and Vendikar... by promising to bomb them for real if they don't do as he says. This is a massive violation of the PD of Picard's day. Picard himself said that gunboat diplomacy was a relic of a bygone era in "Unification" (or he said something to that effect to Spock), however, it worked and the war ended. Note that also, the Federation and Starfleet had already sent Ambassador Fox to end this conflict. So interfering with this civilisation's conflicts is A-OK to the government of the day.

Are you sure? I thought Fox was there just to initiate diplomatic relations between Eminiar and the Federation, and to establish trade agreements with Eminiar VII. I don't believe the Enterprise's mission was to end the war... at least, not until the Enterprise landing party was taken hostage.

Correct. The Federation wanted a treaty port at Eminiar because ships had been lost —and their entire crews as well— in that quadrant. The Eminians refused to allow relations because of their ongoing state of war with Vendikar, which apparently involved also claiming as casualties any spaceship crew that happened to be declared "hit" in the computer war. Not only was Kirk's landing party taken hostage, but the Enterprise was attacked in orbit and it transpired that another Federation ship had been shot down fifty years earlier.

I think on multiple occasions, even in TNG, they stated that any civilization that actually originated on Earth is exempt from the Prime Directive, no matter how long they've been out of contact.

This explains why they had no issues with intervening in "Up the Long Ladder" and "The Masterpiece Society".

It doesn't explain why they let things go to hell on Tasha's home planet, though.

Adm. Norah Satie (ret.) accused Capt. Picard of 19 violations of the Prime Directive in the course of his commands on both the Stargazer and the Enterprise —of which the incidents of "Code Of Honour", "Justice", "Angel One", "Pen Pals", and "Who Watches The Watchers" were seen in the series.

Patrick Degan wrote:Adm. Norah Satie (ret.) accused Capt. Picard of 19 violations of the Prime Directive in the course of his commands on both the Stargazer and the Enterprise —of which the incidents of "Code Of Honour", "Justice", "Angel One", "Pen Pals", and "Who Watches The Watchers" were seen in the series.

But apparently, if you can justify it in your log entries, no one pursues the matter.

"The Federation is not above espionage with foreign powers. A century later Picard will say that the PD prevents he and the Federation from offering support to the legitimate government of Chancellor Gowron (whom Picard put on the seat for fuck's sake! Did the writers even stop to think about this?), an ally and strategic partner. It just goes to show that in TOS, the PD is depicted as a set of ethical guidelines detailing when you can and cannot interfere with another culture, while in the future ideologues like Picard violate them when it suits them (putting Gowron into power) and obey them when asked for help (supporting Gowron from powerplays from within the Klingon Empire and from without) and violate them AGAIN a few episodes later, when Picard doesn't return to the Federation with Spock arrested! Hypocrisy, thy name is Jean-Luc."

Well, in Picard's defense over how he put Gowron in power to begin with compared to his late refusal to aid him:

- Picard initially refused the role of Arbiter in the coosing of the Chancellor, but Km'pec told him that if he refused his dying request it would be a great insult and dishonor on the part of th Federation, and Km'Pec already told everyone involved Picard said yes anyways. So basically Picard was strongarmed into it.

As for Picard refusing to aid Gowron's ship when the war first began, by firing on those vessels he'd have caused an interstellar incident, and dragged the entire Federation into a galactic war. Picard, as a mere starship captain, didn't have the authority to make such a huge decision and thus the only logical thing to do was retreat.

As for not arresting Spock, he was sent there under the assumption that Spock defected, since they found out he didn't and Spock was instrumental in stopping the Romulan invasion of Vulcan, I think it can be assumed the Federation Council decided to let him stay on Romulus as part of his underground movement because it would serve the Federation's interest more.

ShadowSonic wrote:- Picard initially refused the role of Arbiter in the coosing of the Chancellor, but Km'pec told him that if he refused his dying request it would be a great insult and dishonor on the part of th Federation, and Km'Pec already told everyone involved Picard said yes anyways. So basically Picard was strongarmed into it.

"We don't involve ourselves in the internal affairs of others" - that line has been said many times throughout TNG-era trek. The above is no reason for it not to apply here. Picard was being hypocritical.

Sure he was strongarmed into it, but he knew it was in the Federation's best interests to maintain the alliance. All this proves is he ignored his most cherished law when it suited him - hardly a worthy trait.

If Picard never harped on about the PD like he does constantly, treating it as though it's inviolate, I wouldn't have a problem with him violating it constantly. But he doe say it's inviolatet, so I do have a problem with his hypocrisy.

As for Picard refusing to aid Gowron's ship when the war first began, by firing on those vessels he'd have caused an interstellar incident, and dragged the entire Federation into a galactic war. Picard, as a mere starship captain, didn't have the authority to make such a huge decision and thus the only logical thing to do was retreat.

And later? When Gowron came to him and asked the Federation to assist? He says some crazy shit about the PD disallowing him from helping. Granted, in the heat of battle he can't just jump in and declare war on a Klingon faction - afterwards, when there's a formal request for assistance, that's a different story. And assistance might mean anything, from direct military action to something like what the Romulans were doing for the Duras - providing supplies. Only the Federation wouldn't have to hide it's supply ships. But no, Picard flat out says 'No' to Gowron, citing the PD as the reason.

As for not arresting Spock, he was sent there under the assumption that Spock defected, since they found out he didn't and Spock was instrumental in stopping the Romulan invasion of Vulcan, I think it can be assumed the Federation Council decided to let him stay on Romulus as part of his underground movement because it would serve the Federation's interest more.

In other words, he follows the PD when it suits him. Spock was directly interfering with the internal affairs of another nation - a violation of the PD. Picard should have jumped all over him for it - if he weren't a hypocrite.

I simply would not have a problem with Picard if what he said matched what he does.

Well, the alternative to not being the Arbiter of Succession was a possible war with Duras as Chancellor, so Picard's violation was more "needs of the many" sort, not just "it suited him", other times his upholding of the PD wouldn't have some huge impact on the Federation so his upholding makes a bit more sense. I remember Tuvok in VOY saying something about how back when war with the Klingons was a greater possibility (Kirk era) the Fed Council said that the PD was rendered inoperative when their survival was at stake. Probably he same thing applied here.

And considering that Picard ended up intervening on Gowron's behalf anyways after convincing some SF Brass, I'd say those Brass were the ones behind Picard's decision. I find it hard to believe that Picard could make the decision for the Feds not to interfere at all on his own, he had to have spoken with Starfleet Command over it. So there again it's not "when it suits him", it's when ordered by a superior and later he intervenes when again ordered by those same superiors.

Considering the whole Vulcan/Romulan shared ancestry thing, it can be argued that what Spock was doing was an internal affair of their greater race, and thus not a true PD violation. Though this is a stretch.

Picard jumped on him due to the political implications, as those may take priority over the cultural contaminaion implications, but those probably add into it as well. Again, it's not "when it suits him", but the government ultimately supporting Spock's position and thus what Pciard thinks doesn't ad into it.

I read somewhere, it was a long time ago(possibly/probably non-canon) that the PD applied primarily to less advanced/pre-warp civilizations. that would mean that the PD would not apply to things like Spock's buisiness on Romulus, and the whole Arbiter of Succession deal.

IIRC that was the part that they were discussing in the episode where Data starts talking to the girl on the planet that was tearing itsaelf apart.

phred wrote:I read somewhere, it was a long time ago(possibly/probably non-canon) that the PD applied primarily to less advanced/pre-warp civilizations. that would mean that the PD would not apply to things like Spock's buisiness on Romulus, and the whole Arbiter of Succession deal.

IIRC that was the part that they were discussing in the episode where Data starts talking to the girl on the planet that was tearing itsaelf apart.

That seemed to be the intent but writers kept on throwing it into dealings with the Klingons and other advanced civilizations, thereby mucking up the meaning of the PD.

The PD originally was that Starfleet (and Starfleet alone) was not allowed to interfere with pre-warp civilizations, but by TNG it was that Starfleet can't interfere with the internal affairs of ANY civilization, warp or not.

ShadowSonic wrote:Well, the alternative to not being the Arbiter of Succession was a possible war with Duras as Chancellor, so Picard's violation was more "needs of the many" sort, not just "it suited him", other times his upholding of the PD wouldn't have some huge impact on the Federation so his upholding makes a bit more sense. I remember Tuvok in VOY saying something about how back when war with the Klingons was a greater possibility (Kirk era) the Fed Council said that the PD was rendered inoperative when their survival was at stake. Probably he same thing applied here.

Isn't there something wrong with having a law called The Prime Directive if you only follow it when things are hunky dory? This is supposed to be their most sacred law, the holiest of holies (to hear Picard pontificate on the PD leads to this impression) yet when the chips are down, or when their interests say otherwise, the PD is ignored.

And considering that Picard ended up intervening on Gowron's behalf anyways after convincing some SF Brass, I'd say those Brass were the ones behind Picard's decision. I find it hard to believe that Picard could make the decision for the Feds not to interfere at all on his own, he had to have spoken with Starfleet Command over it. So there again it's not "when it suits him", it's when ordered by a superior and later he intervenes when again ordered by those same superiors.

And what did the Brass tell Picard? After being told the grim developments of the war, Fleet Admiral Shanthi says: "None of our concern. The Klingon civil war is by definition an internal matter to the Empire."

The only thing that got the brass to relent was the intel on the Romulan involvement. But before this, Starfleet's top brass and the Federation council were quite prepared to let the Klingons kill each other over their power struggle, and Picard initially stated the party line to Gowron in Redemption part 1. A similar incident occured in the Circle three parter that premiered DS9's second season. The Cardassians had been behind the plot all along, but some arsehole Admiral a hundred parsecs away tells Sisko "Sucks to be the Bajorans; when can you get your people out of there?" Even then, with Cardassian involvement confirmed by Sisko, SFC says that "it's a genuine political revolution internal to Bajor" and "The Cardassians may involve themselves in other people's affairs, but we don't. The Prime Directive applies."

The PD as conceived of originally in TOS, was meant to prevent unethical exploitation of a planetary culture - to prevent the savage colonisation that would come with an Imperialist policy. A hundred years later, this standard was corrupted to the point where the PD gets invoked to prevent humanitarian involvement, but gets ignored to play intrigue with alien governments. In effect, what started off as an ethical duty to not damage a culture through the use of Outside Context Problems, turned into a "We won't interfere AT ALL... except if you've got oil -er, I mean dilithium."

Now, this actually brings a lot of depth to Star Trek. The whole notion that governments don't even follow their own rules, the authorities are corrupt, look the other way, etc - is all nice and gritty. But it falls flat on its face when Picard and SFC and so on, say one thing one episode, do another thing another episode. SoD, in-universe explanation is simple: Picard et al are hypocrites of the highest order. Neither the writers or the characters internal to the plot seem to be aware of it - and that's why it's weak. (and why I liked DS9 more than TNG or VOY, because in the aforementioned Circle trilogy Sisko tells the Admiral to go fuck himself and does what is right)

Considering the whole Vulcan/Romulan shared ancestry thing, it can be argued that what Spock was doing was an internal affair of their greater race, and thus not a true PD violation. Though this is a stretch.

Stretched longer than Mr Fantastic. Regardless of their joint heritage, the Romulans are a completely different culture (and one not without some teeth either).

Picard jumped on him due to the political implications, as those may take priority over the cultural contaminaion implications, but those probably add into it as well. Again, it's not "when it suits him", but the government ultimately supporting Spock's position and thus what Pciard thinks doesn't ad into it.

The government supporting Picard doesn't make Picard any less hypocritical - or the government either for that matter. Picard is not the only person who treats the PD as inviolate. SFC and the Federation Council do as well, as noted above.

They literally have a loose and often-times contradictory enforcement for their first and most important law. They say one thing and do another. Sometimes the PD gets invoked to prevent humanitarian efforts that would save lives, other times it gets ignored so that the Federation can involve themselves in another planet's political development.

phred wrote:I read somewhere, it was a long time ago(possibly/probably non-canon) that the PD applied primarily to less advanced/pre-warp civilizations. that would mean that the PD would not apply to things like Spock's buisiness on Romulus, and the whole Arbiter of Succession deal.

IIRC that was the part that they were discussing in the episode where Data starts talking to the girl on the planet that was tearing itsaelf apart.

The Klingons and Romulans are neighbouring great powers, the Bajorans are a warp civilisation - in all three cases, the PD is said to apply and going against it was crucial to the plot.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Spock wasnt a Starfleet officer anylonger. The PD only affect Starfleet.

The Phase II series bible (I don't have the TOS one, alas) makes out that you just have to have a good reason for interfering in less advanced cultures in contravention of 'General Order Number One' - at this stage, it seems less important than it later became, where it's 'our highest law.' Throughout TOS it seems to be depicted as if it actually says "Don't exploit people jackass."

Stofsk wrote: -Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
Puke.

Can you elaborate? I don't recall that one.

This raises the question... why was the concept introduced in the first place? Since the captains violate it whenever it suits them anyway, and get away with it, what's the point? Was it just to introduce fake moral dillemas? To give opportunities for grandstanding speeches?

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:

Stofsk wrote: -Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
Puke.

Can you elaborate? I don't recall that one.

That was the one with the dudes with the half-black, half-white faces, and was an incredibly hamfisted attack on racism.

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but Spock wasnt a Starfleet officer anylonger. The PD only affect Starfleet.

Starfleet and the Federation are interchangeable. Redemption part 2 points this out when the Fleet Admiral tells Picard she'll have to clear it with the Council, but Picard should start putting together his fleet (meaning that the Council isn't likely to object to whatever play Starfleet's top officer makes).

Why would Starfleet have such a law anyway, if the Federation didn't also follow it?

So did fannish insanity elevate the prime directive to it's TNG state? I don't remember it being mentioned in the TOS movies, but by the time TNG started they were hugely into non-interference for any reason even if it'd be awesome.

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:This raises the question... why was the concept introduced in the first place? Since the captains violate it whenever it suits them anyway, and get away with it, what's the point? Was it just to introduce fake moral dillemas? To give opportunities for grandstanding speeches?

To prevent the kind of colonial exploitation of weaker planets/races that has occured in the past. In TOS, it was quite simple - any introduction or first contact with another culture must be carefully maneuvered so as not to cause unexpected changes into the mix.

This was back in a time when Trek writers at least knew how to write. I know it's become quite fashionable to bash TNG+ era Trek for terrible writing, but what else can you do? TOS had Kirk and co. intervene to prevent humanitarian disasters, or to even the playing field for one faction because another faction had been given a leg-up by the Klingons (A Private Little War). In TNG, the PD gets invoked because somebody seriously thought "But if we intervene we'll be going against this culture's natural progess". I mean seriously, what? An asteroid is going to hit a pre-warp culture and you know it's going to happen but you'll sit back and do nothing because of some bullshit reason? But then next week we're gonna have Deanna in Romulan makeup playing intrigue with a foreign government - why exactly isn't the PD applicable there?

It's a failure of the writing. The writers obviously misunderstood the concept as shown in TOS and mutated it into something ghastly, yet portrayed it as an ideology noone ever went against.

Stark wrote:So did fannish insanity elevate the prime directive to it's TNG state? I don't remember it being mentioned in the TOS movies, but by the time TNG started they were hugely into non-interference for any reason even if it'd be awesome.

The plot of Generations put an entire planet of billions at stake... and the man to save them would have idly stood by if it were some kind of comet coming towards their planet rather than Malcolm MacDowell doing some crazy bullshit with a missile.

I'm not sure it was 'fannish insanity' that resulted in this. Men like Ronald Moore watched and loved TOS, and generally his Trek episodes were solid. But men like Braga were quite proud to say they never watched a single episode of TOS. I can only imagine most of the writers being in the Braga/Berman camp.

David Gerrold explained quite thoroughly the process his The Trouble With Tribbles script went through from concept to finished episode in a book about said episode, and he describes an environment where he would take a draft to the senior editor Gene L. Coon, who would then mark up the draft with comments and revisions and hand it back to Gerrold to do another draft. Throughout the process, all of the writing was done by Gerrold (well, except for the teaser), and Coon only pointed out what needed to be done for the script to be acceptable.

TNG, on the other hand, as described by Ron Moore was very much a write-by-committee atmosphere.

Ron Moore, on his neoBSG blog, wrote:Every episode – every episode – on Trek went through a process known as “The Break,” wherein the entire writing staff was gathered in [Michael Pillar]’s office to “break” the episode on a white dry erase board in excruciating detail, before a word of the teleplay was ever written. Michael ran the breaks and he was the final arbiter of what went on the board (and hence, in the show) and what did not. With a roomful of writers, this means a continuous running argument about where the story should and should not go and it takes a particular kind of show-runner to successfully guide a break session without blood on the walls.

source

I cannot help but wonder if much of the difference between TOS and TNG+ lies in the difference in writing environment between the two eras.