Clinton vs Bush (and vice versa)

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 05:18pm

The entire Iraqi WMD mess reminds me of the Kosovo Mass Grave
mess that Clinton's media flacks insisted did exist, along with
that chemical weapons factory in Sudan, and the Left's muckraking
reminds me of The Good Old Days about Arkansas Cattle Futures,
Whitewater, et al

Funny how the wheel turns, lol, what with
Bush in office, after a string of failed businesses.

Anyway, on to the meat of the post;

Bush so far hasn't exactly shown much light in the domestic policy front,
putting forth all kinds of programs that the conservatives would be fighting
tooth and nail to stop if it was Clinton who was doing it, but with Bush they're
rolling over (Patriot act, massive government spending that isn't defense
related, etc)

However, Bush has shown a willingness that Clinton never did when it comes
to putting the screws on our enemies (and we have enemies, oh yes)

Clinton's entire foreign policy really only consisted of going to the UN
for condemnations of atrocities or bombings, or using dozens of cruise
missiles in ultimately ineffectual strikes against either fixed targets or
where the targets had been 3 hours ago.

For example, the details in this article show the Clinton Administration's
method for dealing with an assassination plot against former President
Bush in 1993 by none other than Saddam:

http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html

That's a clear casus belli for war against Iraq, way back in 1993,
and what Clinton did then, set the tone for most of his foreign policy
over the next eight years: fire off cruise missiles, then apologize profusely
at the UN for firing said cruise missiles and killing the poor defenseless
targets.

In the long term, I think Clinton will eventually end up being remembered
as another Jimmy Carter who had the luck to be in office during boom times, not as a corrupt SOB (that honor belongs to none other than LBJ).

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 05:32pm

I'm sure they could have found some way to use aspirin as a military weapon...

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-23 06:00pm

Serbia is clearly better now than it was under Milosevic. The region seems to be becoming stable and democratic, and the old regime figureheads are in Haia. If Iraq were to be such a success, the critics would quickly be reduced to silence. And they did find some common graves in Serbia, a vestige of WMD is yet to appear within the borders of Iraq.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-09-23 06:05pm

Shep, if you want to post any convos, go ahead

Let's see what kind of shit it will stir up

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:05pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:The region seems to be becoming stable and democratic

Yet Kosovo continues to be a flashpoint, and takes KFOR to keep the lid
on that mess

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-09-23 06:06pm

I say you really can't compare the two when it comes to foreign policy against our enemies. With 9/11 came the political will necessary to let the president do most anything he wanted when it came to destroying the bad guy. Clinton took shit for the Kosovo campaign, even though we lost no soldiers, and only had 3 POWs who were returned safely. He took even more shit for what happened in Somalia even though only 18 died, and we were there for strict humanitarian support, not any perceived oil conflicts of interest. The shear fact of the matter is that without 9/11, Bush would never had gone into Iraq. Saddam and the Taliban would still be in control of their countries. There would probably be tough talk, air strikes in the no fly zones, embargoes, but definately no invasions. What if Clinton had 9/11 during his tenure, what if Bush didn't? That is the missing factor in this comparison, and we will never know it for sure.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 06:06pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Serbia is clearly better now than it was under Milosevic. The region seems to be becoming stable and democratic, and the old regime figureheads are in Haia.

Operation Allied Force set back preexisting efforts to topple Milosevic by many months. And as for common graves, the closest anyone came to that was neat rows of individually marked graves.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-23 06:08pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:The region seems to be becoming stable and democratic
Yet Kosovo continues to be a flashpoint, and takes KFOR to keep the lid
on that mess

The whole 20.000 of them in the Balkans, a force which is more likely to die of boredom or excessive sex with the locals than from actual military action.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:11pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:What if Clinton had 9/11 during his tenure, what if Bush didn't?

Already did. Repeatedly.

January 1993, Clinton is Inagurated.

February 26, 1993, the WTC is bombed by a group of Osama's butt buddies.

June 25, 1996, More of Osama's Butt Buddies blow up Khobar Towers
in Saudi Arabia.

August 7, 1998, More of Osama's butt buddies blow up two US embassies
in Africa.

Oct. 12, 2001, More of Osama's Butt buddies blow up the USS Cole.

Fuck's sake, the goddamned handwriting was on the fucking wall repeatedly
during Clinton's term, and all he did was worthless TLAM strikes.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:12pm

MKSheppard wrote: Oct. 12, 2000 - Butt Buddies blow up USS Cole.

D'oh, got the date mixed up.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-23 06:15pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:[
Operation Allied Force set back preexisting efforts to topple Milosevic by many months.

He was a ruthless dictator and wouldn't leave power by anything else than a revolution, which even if happened could be bloody.

And as for common graves, the closest anyone came to that was neat rows of individually marked graves.

Still common graves. Milosevic was a fascist who ruined a fine country. He should have been toppled after the first balkanic war.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:16pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: Still common graves.

Wait, so graves put in neat rows with individually marked graves, is equal
to having the bodies all dumped into a single pit with a bulldozer?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:24pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: The whole 20.000 of them in the Balkans, a force which is more likely to die of boredom or excessive sex with the locals than from actual military action.

Then why do I keep reading stuff like this in the paper from time to time?

NZ Herald

Macedonia says gunmen killed in clash near Kosovo

08.09.2003 1.38 pm

SKOPJE - Macedonia said today several gunmen were
killed in a clash with security forces hunting ethnic Albanian militants in the country's mountainous north near UN-run Kosovo.

Police and troops suffered no casualties in a co-ordinated operation near the remote village of Brest, on the frontline during the guerrilla insurgency that shook Macedonia in 2001, a police statement said.

Macedonian media said three people had died while four were wounded in what appeared to have been the biggest such crackdown since the fighting two years ago.

"Several members of the armed group have lost their lives because they used weapons while resisting arrest," police said.

"Police units supported by the army have successfully carried out an operation to neutralise the armed groups operating in the area of the village Brest," the statement said.

"There are no casualties among the security forces."

An ethnic Albanian mayor in the nearby municipality of Lipkovo earlier said he had heard reports of casualties when talking with people from Brest, but could not give details.

"The fight began early in the morning and the blasts could be heard far away," Mayor Husamedin Halili said.

"A number of villagers are leaving the village and are going towards Lipkovo and Kosovo."

Police said they had not used any force against the local civilian population or their property.

Macedonia has seen sporadic incidents since the seven- month rebellion ended two years ago with a Western- backed peace accord, under which guerrillas agreed to lay down their arms in return for better rights for the large Albanian minority.

Police last week launched a hunt for gunmen who abducted and briefly held two policemen, raising fears among ethnic Albanian locals of a re-run of the fighting in 2001, when tens of thousands of people fled their homes.

Officials say they are searching for gangs claiming to belong to the shadowy Albanian National Army, which rejected the peace deal and which the United Nations in Kosovo has declared a terrorist organisation.

The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe said it had teams in northern Macedonia but it did not know of any casualties as they had not yet entered Brest.

- REUTERS

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-23 06:24pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote: Still common graves.
Wait, so graves put in neat rows with individually marked graves, is equal
to having the bodies all dumped into a single pit with a bulldozer?

No, just a different kind of common graves. A bunch of people is killed and buried with no registrations made. Do you imagine they were in a neat cemitery near the road with the relatives paying visits with flowers?

Human beings dumped like garbage is a crime.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-09-23 06:25pm

MKSheppard wrote: Fuck's sake, the goddamned handwriting was on the fucking wall repeatedly
during Clinton's term, and all he did was worthless TLAM strikes.

People have been knocking off American citizens for several decades now, but not at the level of 9/11. What I was saying is that there was no political will among the general population to warrant an invasion. I didn't see Bush attacking these assholes as soon as he came into office.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-23 06:25pm

MKSheppard wrote: Then why do I keep reading stuff like this in the paper from time to time?

There are no international troops in Macedonia.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:26pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: Human beings dumped like garbage is a crime.

You know, a war was going on at the time between the Serbian
police/troops and the Albanian militants, and the Serbs had other
things to do rather than cart the bodies into nice national cemeteries.

We buried our people all over France in WWII, and it was only after
the war ended that the Graves Registation people started digging the
bodies up and reburying them in formal cemeteries.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:28pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: There are no international troops in Macedonia.

That's right on the border, and what about this happening in
supposedly KFOR-pacified Kosovo?

http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/ ... p?nid=2746

Bulgarians Attacked in Kosovo

One of them - a 59 year-old Bulgarian - was badly injured.

Two Bulgarian trucks were attacked in Kosovo on their way back to Bulgaria. That was announced Tuesday by the Chief secretary with the Interior Ministry upon his return from the United States. Five Bulgarian nationals traveled with the trucks, the authorities said. Five kilometers away from Pristina, one of the vehicles waited for the other since they got lost on the way. Just when the second truck arrived, the Bulgarians were attacked as one of them - a 59 year-old Bulgarian was badly injured.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 06:34pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: He was a ruthless dictator and wouldn't leave power by anything else than a revolution, which even if happened could be bloody.

And yet in reality there was not even a single person, and Allied Force hampered and set back the efforts of the people who spent years preparing and building up support for it.

Lets see what the record for Allied Force was

[1] A terrorist group can now openly recruit, train and arm
[2] The fall of a dictator was delayed
[3] More people died
[4] Billions that could have gone to reconstruction have gone into paying for occupation forces.

Very impressive

Still common graves.

By that definition every cemetery is one as well. Interesting that bodies should be found in a cemetery in a war zone.

Milosevic was a fascist who ruined a fine country. He should have been toppled after the first balkanic war.

Yeah, but by the time of Allied force in 1998 mere air strikes where a stupid thing to do that hurt the situation far more then they helped. You seem to be clinging to the notion that Allied Force threw Milosevic out of power. It didn't.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 06:37pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: No, just a different kind of common graves. A bunch of people is killed and buried with no registrations made. Do you imagine they were in a neat cemitery near the road with the relatives paying visits with flowers?

Human beings dumped like garbage is a crime.

Actually the only pictures I've ever seen where clearly in a cemetery. And killing hundreds by bombing to protect terrorists is also a crime in my book.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-23 06:37pm

MKSheppard wrote: That's right on the border, and what about this happening in
supposedly KFOR-pacified Kosovo?

http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/web/ ... p?nid=2746

Bulgarians Attacked in Kosovo

One of them - a 59 year-old Bulgarian - was badly injured.

Two Bulgarian trucks were attacked in Kosovo on their way back to Bulgaria. That was announced Tuesday by the Chief secretary with the Interior Ministry upon his return from the United States. Five Bulgarian nationals traveled with the trucks, the authorities said. Five kilometers away from Pristina, one of the vehicles waited for the other since they got lost on the way. Just when the second truck arrived, the Bulgarians were attacked as one of them - a 59 year-old Bulgarian was badly injured.

Sheppard, you don't intend to prove that Kosovo is a clusterfuck in any way comparable to Iraq, do you? The only reports of dead soldiers I remember hearing were due to accidents, and a truck attack with one injured is not very impressive. Serbia has a democratic government and has reached an agreement with Montenegro (itself a democracy). Kosovo will take a while to normalize, but the situation is much better than before the war.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 06:42pm

Colonel Olrik wrote: Sheppard, you don't intend to prove that Kosovo is a clusterfuck in any way comparable to Iraq, do you? The only reports of dead soldiers I remember hearing were due to accidents, and a truck attack with one injured is not very impressive. Serbia has a democratic government and has reached an agreement with Montenegro (itself a democracy). Kosovo will take a while to normalize, but the situation is much better than before the war.

Before the war it was peaceful and in good shape. Then the terrorist KLA came along and the Serbs fought them, and then Clinton with the medias help kicked up a storm that allowed him to take the stupidest possibul course of action, air strikes of slowly increasing intensity, I guess he never heard of Rolling Thunder.

Today a group considered terrorist by the US state department openly walks in the streets in a province policed by a division of foreigners. Great improvement.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-09-23 06:42pm

Sea Skimmer wrote: Actually the only pictures I've ever seen where clearly in a cemetery. And killing hundreds by bombing to protect terrorists is also a crime in my book.

This suffers from being already ancient stuff, but I honestly recall seeing in the TV many small common graves in Kosovo.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-09-23 06:42pm

Sea Skimmer wrote: Actually the only pictures I've ever seen where clearly in a cemetery

At least they got buried with decent marked individual graves.

Thousands of Confederate soldiers bodies were dumped in ditches
which were then covered over, or thrown down wells to get rid of
them, while Union troops were buried in neat rows at battlefield
cemeteries.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-09-23 06:50pm

MKSheppard wrote:
At least they got buried with decent marked individual graves.

Yup, and the very fact that that was practical rules out any of the large scale massacres being possibul. Mass killings require mass graves simply because of limited labor. And even if these graves where scattered around and not in cemeteries that still proves jack and shit because it is standard procedure for troops to temporarily bury even there own dead on sight and leave them for special units to collect later. In a guerrilla war that can be quite difficult and if there are no relatives around then what's grave registration suppose to do anyway?