Which, again, is why you need to have Hamas stop dicking around with its "All-Palestine-as-Martyrs" operation, first. Also, making sure that these are loan payments is big because it ensures not only that the best people get the money, but also that they have an incentive to actually use the money productively.MKSheppard wrote:The money would then be used to smuggle in components for Quassams and finance the construction of several smuggling tunnels along the Philadelphi corridor.Master of Ossus wrote:If Gates had listened to what people were telling him, and had donated the funding for those greenhouses to Palestineans
Gaza situation discussion
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
At risk of ducking the IvP moratorium, I'm not sure. Certainly, economic development would require more than a temporary ceasefire--it requires a sufficiently long period of peace to legitimately offer people a chance of realizing a genuine return on investments. If you just hand over money during a temporary truce and then walk away then you're just asking for militants to take it, and that just makes the whole thing worse. The same constraint applies to the blockade, though. On the one hand, efficiency is almost always improved by free movement and trade, and so obviously the ideal situation would be to lift the siege. On the other hand, I really don't think it's reasonable to tell Israel just to let people through even though some fraction of them will be trying to kill Israelis and rebuild the Hamas military.ray245 wrote:So should those aid be given and the seige of Gaza be lifted in the event of a ceasefire?
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
That's kind of uh, impossible, without changing HAMAS so much it's not HAMAS anymore:Master of Ossus wrote:Which, again, is why you need to have Hamas stop dicking around with its "All-Palestine-as-Martyrs" operation, first.
Link to Hamas charter, scroll down
The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
....
"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. "
....
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."
....
Oh my god this is great:
Article Twenty-Two:
For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Re: Gaza situation discussion
Does that even remotely surprise you?
The only part that surpises me is that ROTARY CLUBS are a tool of the Zionist oppressor; but then, America will come after you if you give money to a charity that was a front for terrorists, so maybe my grandmother's knitting circles DID contribute to global Zionist domination.![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
The only part that surpises me is that ROTARY CLUBS are a tool of the Zionist oppressor; but then, America will come after you if you give money to a charity that was a front for terrorists, so maybe my grandmother's knitting circles DID contribute to global Zionist domination.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
Oh my god, it gets better!
Article Twenty-Eight:
The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.
...Later....
The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.
......OMG, these people BELIEVE in the Protocols, lol.
Article Twenty-Eight:
The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.
...Later....
The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.
......OMG, these people BELIEVE in the Protocols, lol.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Re: Gaza situation discussion
From what I understand, a similar situation occurred in Ireland in the past century. How did they reach a peace agreement? From what I know, I don't think peace was achieved by the constant hammering of armed forces against the IRA.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Re: Gaza situation discussion
I'm planning to change my Rotary club's charter in a year (when I'm President) to read: "The OBJECT of this Rotary club is to extinguish the Muslim race, starting in Palestine, and to assist the Zionist takeover of Palestine."Stark wrote:Does that even remotely surprise you?
The only part that surpises me is that ROTARY CLUBS are a tool of the Zionist oppressor; but then, America will come after you if you give money to a charity that was a front for terrorists, so maybe my grandmother's knitting circles DID contribute to global Zionist domination.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
Yeah, people WERE fucking pissed at Germany, not just for starting WWII but also butchering people by the millions. As I said, conquerors are not normally nice to the conquered, particularly when there has been a significant reversal of fortunes.Sea Skimmer wrote:Probably was some value, but the US did a lot of things as both gestures and real aid. It also did a lot to make the situation worse. You know for the first two years of the occupation it was fucking official allied policy to reduce German productivity and standards of living to what they’d had before Hitler was in power, to those of the middle of the great depression?Broomstick wrote: Given that former adversaries almost never provide ANY aid to the defeated, do you think there was no value in making the gesture?
A debt forgiven is no longer owed. Those debts where forgiven due to the Great Depression and have no bearing on WWII monies.Finland was not part of the Marshal Plan in the first place, and no, Britain did not pay us back in full because the vast majority of the Marshal Plan was in the form of grants. Britain did pay back its lend lease debts (only in 2006), which involved three times more money then the entire Marshal Plan, but it still owes us billions from WW1 which will never be paid.And if that money was so insignificant, why so long to repay? Last I heard, among our allies only Finland and Great Britain ever paid us back in full (thanks, guys!)
But not bad enough to give anything back, of course.That’s why I made the specific point that Germany alone was given most of its Marshal Plan money in the form of loans, though in the end the US decided to effectively cancel them anyway because we felt bad about having Germany looted even while Marshal aid was delivered.
Boo-fucking-hoo.The US actually provided more aid to Europe in 1945-1947 before the Marshal Plan anyway, but in the case of German the occupation tax exceeded the value of the aid and a huge number of Germans died in prisoner of war camps from disease, while much of the civilian population starved.
Look, I feel bad for the Germans caught up in this against their will, but a fucking shitload of people died in POW camps, from disease, and from starvation from 1930-whatever through the middle 1940's. Some of the disease and starvation were just the side effects of war and in no way deliberate or malicious - and some of it was. Hard to tell the difference sometimes. One of my uncles came home from a German POW camp weighing 90 pounds and it took him years to recover, but it wasn't because the Germans were being sadistic, the German guards there had no food either and were just as starved by the time the Allies showed up. Wouldn't surprise me if those guards died because they stayed in Europe while my uncle was transported back to the US with its intact infrastructure and abundant food.
No, the Marshal Plan wasn't perfect. Neither was it an utter failure. I get damn tired of the black and white fallacy that something must be utterly without flaw or be utterly without redeeming feature.But of course, history is written by the victors, and so the Marshal Plan is played up as a miracle while all the details are ignored.
As opposed to Japanese conduct while in China, where they not only raped the locals but ate them. The raping of Japanese women is not good and I certainly don't condone it, but against the larger landscape of WWII it was hardly the worst sin committed. In addition, the US command did take steps to stop it and never approved it. The Japanese had their "comfort women", a euphemism for women POW's forced endure multiple rapes daily.Yeah, it helped counter balance all the bad press from US troops raping thousands of women upon arrival in the country, something which was so bad that US units were confined to barracks when not actually on duty.As for Japan - even "token" gifts like flying a few mutilated women to the States for reconstructive surgery had considerable PR value.
So how does making the Japanese government take out loans to pay for basic food imports negate the kindness of US commanders giving away food to the locals? Would you rather they had thrown that milk away? Perhaps pour on the ground in front of starving women?Course in 1946 while Japan was starving so badly our local commanders were letting Japanese women take half drunk glasses of milk from our dinning halls we made the Japanese take out loans to pay for basic food imports.
If letting the Emperor live was the price of a lasting future peace then, as repulsive as it may be given his guilt, that WAS the best path. As I said, better to forgo revenge than to endure a multi-generational feud. Wars continually present a choice better two evils and the devil is in finding which is least evil in the long term. What fucking good would it have done the world to string up Hirohito if the consequence was simmering resentment, constant violence, and perhaps outright war again in a few years or decades? Is that what would have happened? We'll never know - but it was a consideration.It also sure helped that we let Hirohito and the entire Imperial family get away with fucking mass murder so that they could praise the US publicly for being so kind, and then cut short the trials of the handful of war criminals we were actually willing to go after.A little kindness goes a long way. We could have been vindictive bastards and made the Japanese impoverished vassels. We didn't. We helped heal the wounded, helped them rebuild, gave them back their country, and swore that in exchange for them renouncing anything but a purely defensive military force we'd protect them from everyone else.
And yet there were Japanese who resisted, who committed acts that we today would label terrorism again the US occupation, who wanted to continue the fight. In order to secure lasting peace it was necessary for the majority of Japanese to marginalize and reject that path.None of this changes the fact that all of this happened only after both Axis powers were not just beat, but utterly defeated and shoved into the ground, then occupied and stripped of armaments making any call the continue resistance look insane.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
I'm seeing unconfirmed reports that the IDF just blasted the UN headquarters for all the relief operations in Gaza, I'll try to look for a source...
EDIT, from the AP:
EDIT, from the AP:
Well this could create some waves...The UN refugee agency says its Gaza headquarters has been struck by Israeli artillery fire and the building is now ablaze.
Spokesman Chris Gunness said the building was hit today by what was believed to be three white phosphorous shells.
The weapons burn at extremely high temperatures and can set things on fire.
However, witnesses said a nearby building was struck, and the UN building remained intact.
It was hard to verify the accounts because the entire area was covered in black smoke.
Gunness said the building had been used as a shelter for hundreds of people fleeing Israel's 20-day offensive in Gaza.
It's not clear how many people were there at the time.
He said three people were injured.
The Israeli army had no immediate comment on the incident.
![Image](http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/3232/logorp8.png)
Re: Gaza situation discussion
I Israel just trying to piss off the international community now?CNN wrote:GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen in Gaza City set part of a U.N. relief agency's central storehouse for humanitarian aid ablaze, its director said Thursday.
The fire left black smoke hanging over Gaza City, and there was no way to control the fire, said John Ging, the head of operations in Gaza for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency.
"It's a very big fire, and we're not able to get it under control at the moment," he said. With gun battles going on around the facility, "the emergency services are not able to get to us."
The compound was hit by shrapnel and tank fire during clashes Thursday morning, Ging said. Three workers were hurt, and the compound's warehouse and workshop were burning out of control within an hour and a half, he said. Video Watch as fire blazes at U.N. compound »
"What we've had all night and into this morning is a relentless bombardment of this area by artillery fire, which is coming from kilometers away, and by tank fire," he said. He said staffers identified the source of the fires as white phosphorous shells, whose use is restricted under international law.
There was no immediate comment from the Israeli military on the allegation. But the U.S.-based group Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using white phosphorous shells in Gaza during its campaign against Hamas, which has ruled Gaza since 2007.
The group said that while the use of white phosphorus to obscure military movements is "a permissible use in principle," the substance can burn civilians and start fires in the densely populated region.
The Israel Defense Forces initially denied using the ordnance. But by Monday, Israeli officials said only that any shells fired in Gaza "are in accordance with international law."
Aid workers were already warning that the new fighting between Israel and the Palestinian militant group Hamas threatened to bring about a humanitarian disaster. Following the last two days of bombardment, the private relief agency CARE announced it was canceling its distribution of food and medical aid to the territory during Thursday's fighting as well. Read an aid worker's diary
"Desperately needed supplies are ready to be distributed today, but we cannot reach the people in need because of the bombing," Martha Myers, the charity's director in the Palestinian territories, said in a written statement.
And the Foreign Press Association said international news agency offices in Gaza City was hit by Israeli fire Thursday and demanded Israel stop shooting at the building that houses them.
"We note that these buildings are well known landmarks in Gaza and that the IDF has been clearly notified of their location on several occasions," the agency said.
Don't Miss
* Aid worker: Food finally trickles into Gaza
* Group accuses Israel of firing white phosphorus
* In-depth: Gaza crisis
* CNN Arabic: Gaza escalation
* iReport.com: Send your videos, photos, stories
UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness said the agency had urged Israel to stop fighting nearby, but had no response. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who is in the region for talks aimed at ending the now 20-day war, was meeting Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak as the fire burned.
Gunness urged both Israel and Hamas, which has been firing rockets into southern Israel, to heed the "conscience of the world" and comply with a U.N. resolution calling for a cease-fire.
But he added: "I'm standing looking over the town of Beit Hanoun, and with every dull thud and every plume of smoke that comes out of there, it's sad to say that the parties on the ground are not listening."
Israeli aircraft struck 70 targets in Gaza overnight, the Israel Defense Forces reported Thursday, while fighting on the ground left 11 Israeli troops wounded. The military said about 35 armed Palestinian fighters were wounded or killed in those clashes, mostly by airstrikes.
The Israeli military has been halting its bombardment for daily three-hour stretches to allow trucks loaded with food, fuel and medical supplies to enter the territory. It said it planned to let 170 trucks through the border on Thursday, and announced the appointment of an army officer, Brig. Gen. Shimi Daniel, to coordinate humanitarian efforts. Video Watch as civilians suffer most »
Israel launched its campaign against Gaza on December 27 in an effort to halt the firing of rockets at its southern cities. That fire persisted Thursday, with at least 10 rockets or mortar shells striking Israeli territory, the IDF reported.
More than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed and nearly 5,000 wounded since the conflict began, Palestinian officials said Wednesday. Israel said 10 of its soldiers and three civilians have been killed and more than 100 soldiers have been wounded.
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Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and has been designated a terrorist organization by the Israeli government, the United States and the European Union. A top official of the movement, which won Palestinian elections in 2006, said Wednesday it would accept a cease-fire only if the Jewish state withdraws from Gaza and lifts its economic blockade of the territory.
The issue has split the Arab nations into two camps: Those, like Egypt, who want an end to Hamas' political influence, and others, like Qatar, who are more sympathetic to the movement.
Re: Gaza situation discussion
I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
Re: Gaza situation discussion
Well once it's raining WP around you you are bound to feel a bit bombarded even if it was fired to lay smoke.Lonestar wrote:I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
Though it's not automatically given, there's a more than trivial probability that the Israelis did just that. They have no qualms about intentionally targeting and leveling civilian infrastructure in the name of expediency and then lying about it afterward. Let's see what turns up before lapping up the IDF pronouncements to the contrary.Lonestar wrote:I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.
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Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
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GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Re: Gaza situation discussion
How did this topic suddenly devolve into a discussion about the Marshall Plan?
To everyone who thought that Europe rebuilt itself - you are only partially correct. Sure, the Marshall Plan was not that huge in comparison to the real reconstruction costs, but it served several important purposes when regarding Germany:
- it helped free up funds for rebuilding infrastructure. Most of the damage to the German industry in the war had been done by destroying the means of shipping products or resources.
- the psychological impact. Together with CARE, it showed that the americans were not enemies of Germany
- the political signal that the USA was willing to stand by Europe in face of the Soviets.
That is the real importance of the Marshall Plan, no matter how small the actual sums might have been.
In that context, Mike is absolutely right. It was not the constant bombardement of the cities that made german citizens good friends - it was the Marshall Plan and CARE packages.
To everyone who thought that Europe rebuilt itself - you are only partially correct. Sure, the Marshall Plan was not that huge in comparison to the real reconstruction costs, but it served several important purposes when regarding Germany:
- it helped free up funds for rebuilding infrastructure. Most of the damage to the German industry in the war had been done by destroying the means of shipping products or resources.
- the psychological impact. Together with CARE, it showed that the americans were not enemies of Germany
- the political signal that the USA was willing to stand by Europe in face of the Soviets.
That is the real importance of the Marshall Plan, no matter how small the actual sums might have been.
In that context, Mike is absolutely right. It was not the constant bombardement of the cities that made german citizens good friends - it was the Marshall Plan and CARE packages.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Re: Gaza situation discussion
The IDF using WP shells is news? Earlier in this thread there was a discussion about a picture, which the conclusion was that it was a M825 smoke shell dispensing.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
I'm starting to see reports that the IDF isn't bothering with the lying-about-it part. Just look on Youtube, Reddit, Digg, and even Haaretz (!!!) for the words 'Israel', 'Palestine', and 'War'.Edi wrote:Though it's not automatically given, there's a more than trivial probability that the Israelis did just that. They have no qualms about intentionally targeting and leveling civilian infrastructure in the name of expediency and then lying about it afterward. Let's see what turns up before lapping up the IDF pronouncements to the contrary.Lonestar wrote:I sure am glad a qualified person is on site to determine WP was used, and used as a bombardment tool instead of a marking/star shell tool.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
Thanks for the tip, Einy, but we've had quite a bit of it in our own news media, since the destruction of that clinic built and run by the Finnish Lutheran Church's Foreign Aid Organization. Our foreign minister grilled the Israeli ambassador and got more or less stonewalled. It's been big news here, and I don't think the Finnish public has forgotten the blue helmet who was killed in Lebanon in 2006 when Israel bombed a UN observation post to smoking rubble. We never got anything resembling a satisfactory report for that either.
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Re: Gaza situation discussion
Well, It started off due to me proposing a similar action being carried out in the Gaza region. Gaza access to the seas can potentially help Trade for the Palestinians if that place was developed.Thanas wrote:How did this topic suddenly devolve into a discussion about the Marshall Plan?
To everyone who thought that Europe rebuilt itself - you are only partially correct. Sure, the Marshall Plan was not that huge in comparison to the real reconstruction costs, but it served several important purposes when regarding Germany:
- it helped free up funds for rebuilding infrastructure. Most of the damage to the German industry in the war had been done by destroying the means of shipping products or resources.
- the psychological impact. Together with CARE, it showed that the americans were not enemies of Germany
- the political signal that the USA was willing to stand by Europe in face of the Soviets.
That is the real importance of the Marshall Plan, no matter how small the actual sums might have been.
In that context, Mike is absolutely right. It was not the constant bombardement of the cities that made german citizens good friends - it was the Marshall Plan and CARE packages.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
Re: Gaza situation discussion
Why not? They know nobody is going to do anything about it. Hell, a number of Israelis watch the slaughter like a spectator sport.Bounty wrote: I Israel just trying to piss off the international community now?
And that's the problem. The Finnish government should have expelled the Israeli ambassador for the attack as well as adding insult to injury by blowing off the foreign minister.Edi wrote:Thanks for the tip, Einy, but we've had quite a bit of it in our own news media, since the destruction of that clinic built and run by the Finnish Lutheran Church's Foreign Aid Organization. Our foreign minister grilled the Israeli ambassador and got more or less stonewalled. It's been big news here, and I don't think the Finnish public has forgotten the blue helmet who was killed in Lebanon in 2006 when Israel bombed a UN observation post to smoking rubble. We never got anything resembling a satisfactory report for that either.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
So let me just make sure I got this right.
Israel fully cordons off Gaza(Except for the tunnels which they are trying to bomb) and refuses to allow anything but a trickle of supplies into Gaza, basic supplies like food, bandages, fuel for the generators at the Hospitals. The've spent the past two weeks blowing up every government building inside Gaza and nearly every police station. Just a day ago they blew up a major UN outpost and set fire to tons of food and fuel which the UN had set aside for relief efforts...
So are there any major storehouses left? Because it looks damn like Israel intends to eliminate all law and order with Gaza and out and out starve them out as if this was some kind of Medieval SIEGE.
Israel fully cordons off Gaza(Except for the tunnels which they are trying to bomb) and refuses to allow anything but a trickle of supplies into Gaza, basic supplies like food, bandages, fuel for the generators at the Hospitals. The've spent the past two weeks blowing up every government building inside Gaza and nearly every police station. Just a day ago they blew up a major UN outpost and set fire to tons of food and fuel which the UN had set aside for relief efforts...
So are there any major storehouses left? Because it looks damn like Israel intends to eliminate all law and order with Gaza and out and out starve them out as if this was some kind of Medieval SIEGE.
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Re: Gaza situation discussion
*Edit, also when this thread ends I intend to move it into the Famous thread section.
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
Re: Gaza situation discussion
The actions in Gaza is not going to help Israel at all. The means don't justify the end. I fail to understand why is Israel so happy to create another Somalia to some extend. The international backlash against Israel this time is huge.Mr Bean wrote:So let me just make sure I got this right.
Israel fully cordons off Gaza(Except for the tunnels which they are trying to bomb) and refuses to allow anything but a trickle of supplies into Gaza, basic supplies like food, bandages, fuel for the generators at the Hospitals. The've spent the past two weeks blowing up every government building inside Gaza and nearly every police station. Just a day ago they blew up a major UN outpost and set fire to tons of food and fuel which the UN had set aside for relief efforts...
So are there any major storehouses left? Because it looks damn like Israel intends to eliminate all law and order with Gaza and out and out starve them out as if this was some kind of Medieval SIEGE.
Come to think of it, can the Fatah even reassert any form of control over the Gaza strip after the attacks has stopped?
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
So long as Hamas remains recalcitrant? I think at this point of time, it has already turned into a winner takes all. Either Hamas capitulates, or the Palestinians suffer. Another truce is meaningless.ray245 wrote:The actions in Gaza is not going to help Israel at all. The means don't justify the end. I fail to understand why is Israel so happy to create another Somalia to some extend. The international backlash against Israel this time is huge.
No, they can't. They have no legitimacy.Come to think of it, can the Fatah even reassert any form of control over the Gaza strip after the attacks has stopped?
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Re: Gaza situation discussion
It's a heartless solution, but it's difficult to see how one can get much more heartless than what's going on right now:
Cut every power, water and communications line between Israel and Gaza,
fully fortify and militarize the border (which in practice probably just means eliminating the remaining Israel-Gaza crossings),
tell Egypt, you have always been great proponents of Pan-Arabism. Here's a golden opportunity to deliver; naturally in the spirit of Pan-Arabism you will care far better and more equitably for Gaza's people, than Israel can or will. Plus, all aid monies will now flow to Cairo for disbursement. Here's a few million dollars to get power and water and roads connected, on your end. Good luck.
Cut every power, water and communications line between Israel and Gaza,
fully fortify and militarize the border (which in practice probably just means eliminating the remaining Israel-Gaza crossings),
tell Egypt, you have always been great proponents of Pan-Arabism. Here's a golden opportunity to deliver; naturally in the spirit of Pan-Arabism you will care far better and more equitably for Gaza's people, than Israel can or will. Plus, all aid monies will now flow to Cairo for disbursement. Here's a few million dollars to get power and water and roads connected, on your end. Good luck.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
Re: Gaza situation discussion
How is Israel going to stop another anti-Israeli party from taking over? As long as a sizable portion of Palenstians is unable to see any tangible benefit, Israel will be experience continued attacks from Gaza.Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So long as Hamas remains recalcitrant? I think at this point of time, it has already turned into a winner takes all. Either Hamas capitulates, or the Palestinians suffer. Another truce is meaningless.ray245 wrote:The actions in Gaza is not going to help Israel at all. The means don't justify the end. I fail to understand why is Israel so happy to create another Somalia to some extend. The international backlash against Israel this time is huge.
In the short run, a truce may seem meaninglessness, but in the long run, Israel need to capitalize on the truce to undermine the Hamas credibility of creating stability for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip.
People's anger towards Israel will not fade just because someone else is responsible for the Palestinians .t's a heartless solution, but it's difficult to see how one can get much more heartless than what's going on right now:
Cut every power, water and communications line between Israel and Gaza,
fully fortify and militarize the border (which in practice probably just means eliminating the remaining Israel-Gaza crossings),
tell Egypt, you have always been great proponents of Pan-Arabism. Here's a golden opportunity to deliver; naturally in the spirit of Pan-Arabism you will care far better and more equitably for Gaza's people, than Israel can or will. Plus, all aid monies will now flow to Cairo for disbursement. Here's a few million dollars to get power and water and roads connected, on your end. Good luck.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.