Jumping forward to the end of the war. (SDNWORLD).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Arik is apparently serious about this, so.

Should we, or should I negate his last post and have this thing continue?

[Lonestar]

I'm ambivalent. I had actually had half a post in my mind about a breakthrough on the ground rather than a MESS seaborne invasion. I was mildly peeved about Marina saying "grow some balls and show the main invasion", because, as I've pointed out, I have long work hours, travel, and school…most of the Mess has similar situations, and Shep has…none of the above. Hence my "we'll fucking show the invasion when we fucking show the invasion," and Shep just pushing on through with his posts, because everyone else is busy with real life.

[K. A. Pital]

Shep's effort deserves more in my view. He managed to stand at least for a while against a vastly superior enemy. Shouldn't that count... at all?

But in reality, yes, the MESS folks didn't have much time to post, whereas Shep posted attack after attack.

I'm not sure even I, with my lax schedule, could reasonably keep up on that. And I'm a single person, whereas the MESS are a group, what one does not necessarily translate to all others.

I'd say let the war go on with occasional impartial reports (Marina?), but the eventual outcome is of course pre-destined, the economic and force disparity is far too great...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Can we have a rule stating you aren't allowed to RP an opponent's response?

[Czechmate]

I have been collaborating with beowulf and trying to get ahold of lonestar to coordinate a big MESS air-land-sea offensive to end the war with sheer audacity (and numbers), but if we're just going to jump ahead to the end, it might be wise for us to determine at least a framework of the war's events.

Y'know, like this;

-January 09
--ShAF strategic arm launches massive attack on Old Dominion land targets and offshore MESS vessels
---(losses, all sides)
--TXAF conducts mass intercept scramble
---(losses, all sides)
--RCAF conducts mass low-level penetration raid
---(losses, all sides)
--Shepistani superheavy attack submarine launches attack on Wilkonian carrier groups operating off of the New Continent
---(losses, all sides)
-February 09
-March 09, etc.

once this is figured out in the most barebones terms, we can all 'flashback' refer to bits of it as needed for story purposes. the war's duration and losses incurred are probably going to be the most difficult to determine.

Can we have a rule stating you aren't allowed to RP an opponent's response?

Seconded.

[Coyote]

Can we have a rule stating you aren't allowed to RP an opponent's response?

Seconded.

I can change the part where the treaty is accepted. It'll be offered, though.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

I'm voting for fast-foward. Lack of interaction and the excessiveness are the main reasons.

[Steve]

And what about everything else like, say, the important diplomatic conference I was about to host?

Unfortunately, Marina's going to be busy shortly with school, so the alternative of having the players reporting their intentions for, say, month-long periods and Marina deciding their results is probably too much to ask.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I think in my opinion, regardless what would happen, a massive ground invasion would have been organised. The only issue is how much each side lost.

And how badly Shep loses.

[Setzer]

I think it will be quicker for Marina to extrapolate the course of the war and fast forward to the conclusion. It would allow us to focus on things besides page after page of obscure militaria. I'm sure I speak for quite a few of us when I say I like military trivia, but even I find this overwhelming.

[Raj Ahten]

We don't need pages of techno speak and people arguing about whether a bomber or missile can do a certain thing. It will probably kill the game, and a blow by blow run of this war will take months. But we shouldn't just skip to the end either. We take it to a strategic level, with perhaps we all determine what happens year by year.

[MKSheppard]

I'd like to point out a key point that everyone's forgotten in their righteous anger.

With each carrier or aircraft that's damaged or destroyed; the balance of power shifts away from the MESS and in favor of the IRT, CSR, and especially Japanistan, who have undamaged navies and airforces.

Does the MESS really want to push home this war to the finish and risk seeing it's strategic advantage utterly destroyed, leaving them impotent after crippling losses in invading Shepistan to a surprise CSR or Japanistani sneak attack?

Jesus. Am I the only one in this game who thinks several steps ahead?

[Siege]

It was interesting at first, but the abbreviations and techno-jargon are irritating already, and that will only get worse the longer this pointless war continues.

I say fast-forward to the end of the war, but simultaneously allow the rest of the world to go on in 'real time'. After all, the whole damned world doesn't revolve around this stupid 'lol B1/suparsub' schtick -- there's plenty other things happening out there as well.

[Raj Ahten]

And what about everything else like, say, the important diplomatic conference I was about to host?
.

That’s a big issue right there. Just because the MESS and Shepistan are having a war doesn't mean all the rest of the business should be kicked to the curb.

What we really need is some way to bring some order to the war so it isn't all about the specs of a single missile or who can post a surprise attack first or so forth.

[Coyote]

I'd like to point out a key point that everyone's forgotten in their righteous anger.

With each carrier or aircraft that's damaged or destroyed; the balance of power shifts away from the MESS and in favor of the IRT, CSR, and especially Japanistan, who have undamaged navies and airforces.

Does the MESS really want to push home this war to the finish and risk seeing it's strategic advantage utterly destroyed, leaving them impotent after crippling losses in invading Shepistan to a surprise CSR or Japanistani sneak attack?

Jesus. Am I the only one in this game who thinks several steps ahead?

Oh, no, I'm perfectly aware that another Griefer attack is possible, and may even be likely. But before I just write off Skimmer and Phongn, I want to make it obvious that they have a choice in how they want to pursue this.

On the other hand, you see, time is NOT on our side. Each day that ticks by is another day you get closer to nuclear weapons, so our conventional advantage will be nullified-- and while we could probably still win a war, it'll be that much harder. We also know that once you get nuclear weapons, it'll be a metter of when, not if, you launch them all off en masse for some perceived slight. We remember the reaction to the anti-aircraft incident. You uncork instant surise at the slightest provokation and orient your entire defensve framework towards a nuclear-or-nothing response. From our point of view, it is the kind of thing that has to be nipped in the bud.

Skimmer can and has shown restraint; so too Phongn. While smart money says they're just doing it to lull us into a false sense of security, there is also the chance that they may not want to be too hasty under the circumstances. They may not want a total war scenario, too, I don't know what's on their minds but I'm not going to make that decision for them.

[MKSheppard]

Each day that ticks by is another day you get closer to nuclear weapons

Hahaha. I don't have any nuclear program in this SDN World. Oh sure, there's a building at the Naval Nuclear Propulsion center, that looks at possible uses of the plutonium byproducts of nuclear fission power plants; but that'ps pretty much it.

All my efforts have been directed towards Chemicals and Bioweapons; because they offer significantly more bang for the buck; and don't require a hugely expensive state apparatus

EDIT: See latest post by me. I made a big booboo.

[Coiler]

What we really need is some way to bring some order to the war so it isn't all about the specs of a single missile or who can post a surprise attack first or so forth.

This may be too much work for Marina, but I'd recommend having her decide the outcome of every battle. Like, you couldn't say "my subs sink the carrier", or "My reinforcement convoy arrives in the OD perfectly safe and sound", but you would say "I have my subs attack their carrier battle group" or "I send a convoy full of troops to the OD." Then Marina would make a post detailing the success of the attack on the carrier, or how many ships in the convoy got through, etc....

[Siege]

This may be too much work for Marina, but I'd recommend having her decide the outcome of every battle. Like, you couldn't say "my subs sink the carrier", or "My reinforcement convoy arrives in the OD perfectly safe and sound", but you would say "I have my subs attack their carrier battle group" or "I send a convoy full of troops to the OD." Then Marina would make a post detailing the success of the attack on the carrier, or how many ships in the convoy got through, etc....

This however would ensure reading the game threads will be tedious in the extreme. Just imagine post after post of "I sic my sub on your carrier, "my carrier launches 80 Hornets at your shores", "my marine division attacks your capital", etc. I'd bet real money the game would be deader than hell before we got two pages into the war.

[Master_Baerne]

Or perhaps one would be required to work out the success or failure of an operation beforehand with the other side, by PMs, perhaps with Her Grace the Duchess's involvement to minimize arguments.

[Coiler]

I'd like to point out a key point that everyone's forgotten in their righteous anger.

With each carrier or aircraft that's damaged or destroyed; the balance of power shifts away from the MESS and in favor of the IRT, CSR, and especially Japanistan, who have undamaged navies and airforces.

Does the MESS really want to push home this war to the finish and risk seeing it's strategic advantage utterly destroyed, leaving them impotent after crippling losses in invading Shepistan to a surprise CSR or Japanistani sneak attack?

Jesus. Am I the only one in this game who thinks several steps ahead?

Shep, people rarely think in the detached, big-picture way that you just did, especially if they're political leaders dependent on public support. If Shepistan sinks their warships, kills who-knows-how-many sailors, and bombards their cities with ballistic missiles, the MESS leaders aren't going to go "Hmmmm. If we keep going to war with Shep, our warship losses will lower our proportionate strength compared to other large powers. Maybe we shouldn't go to war with Shep."

They'll go "REMEMBER THE CARRIERS! TO WAR! DON'T FIGHT UNTIl SHEPISTAN IS DESTROYED!"

[Coyote]

Marina would be overwhelmed.

Perhaps an agreed-upon 3rd party who is not involved in whatever conflict is at hand..?

[MKSheppard]

EDIT: Okay ooops; I do have a nuclear weapons program. Lonestar reminded me of it

"Unlike YOU I'm being public about it"



Me is very embarassed.

[Coiler]

Hahaha. I don't have any nuclear program in this SDN World. Oh sure, there's a building at the Naval Nuclear Propulsion center, that looks at possible uses of the plutonium byproducts of nuclear fission power plants; but that'ps pretty much it.

All my efforts have been directed towards Chemicals and Bioweapons; because they offer significantly more bang for the buck; and don't require a hugely expensive state apparatus.

Way to nitpick Coyote's words while totally missing his point. Chemical/bioweapons are not nukes, but they're still WMDs, and the more the game goes on, the more of them you have. The MESS has great reasons both in and out of game for pressing their attack until you're totally crushed.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Or perhaps one would be required to work out the success or failure of an operation beforehand with the other side, by PMs, perhaps with Her Grace the Duchess's involvement to minimize arguments.

I will recruit two volunteers, Seth and MarshalPurnell, who are new posters here but old friends, to help me with this, so that's adopted.

By the way, if we jump ahead, I will have to personally write up ALL the events that happened in the intervening time INCLUDING THE END OF THE WAR. Arik's post WILL NOT STAND in any circumstances; it's simply too important for me to let it.

That means the game is paused if this measure passes effective Sunday (if we have, say, 20 people vote then the result will be final). The game will remain paused until Monday the 29th, since next week I start a 20-credit fall quarter with such charming classes as Calculus IV (multivariate), Mechanics of Materials, chemistry, and innovations in design.

[Sea Skimmer]

Japanistan would enter the war if the MESS began a ground invasion, which would be an instant chemical/bio death fest. It would just be too much of a threat and opportunity in one to continue to stand by and become isolated.