Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

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EnterpriseSovereign
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Batman wrote: 2021-04-03 03:58pm When Thor hit the shield in Avengers he was trying to get Cap out of the way, not destroy the shield, so he likely wasn't hitting as hard as he could and was possibly taken by surprise by how ridiculously tough the thing is
A handy clip of when Vibranium meets Uru:

It probably wouldn't have mattered how hard Thor tried to hit, the only difference would have been the size of the shockwave.

Regarding the limits of vibranium, from the Wiki:
Despite its near-indestructible nature, vibranium's durability ultimately has its limits. The energy projected by the Infinity Stone in Vision's forehead combined with Iron Man's repulsors and a lightning bolt from Mjølnir was able to slowly melt away Ultron's vibranium outer shell, while Vision's vibranium body was later disintegrated by Scarlet Witch's full-power energy bolt. Scarlet Witch was also able to break through the metal with her telekinesis. It is also shown that Corvus Glaive's glaive could easily pierce through Vision’s vibranium body, thus preventing him from phasing. Thanos' Double-Edged Sword was able to shatter vibranium with several hits. It is also revealed that vibranium is vulnerable and rendered defunct by sonic-based equipment such as Ulysses Klaue's Prosthetic Arm and the sonic stabilizers that are built on tracks of the Wakandan Maglev Train within the Great Mound. Vibranium is also highly unstable when transported at high speed. Additionally, sufficiently high levels of strength can overcome through its durability, as the immensely strong Thanos was able to break Vision's forehead to acquire the Mind Stone and shatter Captain America's Shield.
  • Mjolnir was shattered by Hela. While offscreen Doctor Strange could have done the reverse-time trick and repaired it there's no indication he did.
  • Stormbreaker is in the hands of Thor who was last seen gallivanting around the galaxy with the Guardians.
  • Scarlet Witch is currently hiding some place remote and isn't exactly reachable
  • Thanos had destroyed the infinity stones, and Thanos himself and his minions and gear were all turned to dust by Iron Man's sacrifice
Basically, most of the things that can defeat vibranium either no longer exist or are effectively unreachable with the exception of Wakandan sonic tech, which is probably sees use in recycling. While I could certainly envision them being able to melt it down, I'm not entirely sure they'd be willing to.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Double post edit.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Crazedwraith »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Basically, most of the things that can defeat vibranium either no longer exist or are effectively unreachable with the exception of Wakandan sonic tech, which is probably sees use in recycling. While I could certainly envision them being able to melt it down, I'm not entirely sure they'd be willing to.
If Sam ask them to? Not sure. If Bucky asked them to he'd have a better shot as he's in with the Wakandans. At least he was pre-Snap. Now, especially having released Zemo, the situation may have changed.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by LadyTevar »

BTW: Can we go back to Isaiah for a moment?

The US GOV gave that doctor blood samples from "a test subject", who we know now was Isaiah. The doctor had to isolate samples from that blood and mix them together, and he did it just before he was Snapped.

So -- in the 2008 Hulk movie, Banner was given 'samples of the SuperSerum' to work with in the GammaRay experiments. So, was that from Isaiah's blood, or remnants of what they'd given Isaiah?

Which makes Isaiah the HeLa Cells of superserum: experimental materials stolen and used without permission or acknowledgement for decades. At least Henrietta Lacks was finally ID'd and made known.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by FaxModem1 »

Anyone else been rooting for the Flag Smashers? I will admit, I've been doing so. For one thing, the hunt for them has seemed rather overzealous. A group of nonlethal bank robbers and Robin Hoods giving necessary supplies to refugees seems like a very back burner situation compared to all the potential warlords, organized crime, and actual terrorists that are out there. This seems like something that local national police agencies could handle. It also makes the main characters look like shills for the GRC, as the crimes they were committing, as far as Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes were concerned, were rather harmless and victimless.

Until the end of episode 3, their big crimes were stealing money from a bank via flash mob(when it was established in the same episode that banks are highly discriminatory and won't help out those in financially difficult times), stealing vaccines to be used on refugees, and one delays the cops chasing them by heroically standing in the way as he's shot. And even in episode 3, stealing supplies for refugees. It was only with Karli grieving her mother that she decides to blow up the GRC warehouse with people in it. That's the first solidly evil thing the group has done. This is in the same episode that establishes that these very same refugees are dying of things like tuberculosis and are in need of other things like food.

Of course, finding out that the Flag Smashers, before the reshoots, were originally a lot more of an evil group, and were planning to unleash an aerial plague to kill off half the population, that their scenes take a rather harsher context. This was changed because having a plotline involving vaccines and a plague might not come off that well in the time of Covid. It makes one take all their scenes into a different context. The bank robbery was probably to finance their terrorist organization, the vaccines were probably for biological material, the man holding off the cops wasn't heroically buying time to delay them so his friends would be shot, but so that they could abscond with a plague. Etc.

Without all those elements, the Flag Smashers come off as well intentioned, but WAY over their heads group of teenagers and young adults. This also adds a bigger justification for why Falcon and Winter Soldier, as well as the new Cap and Battlestar are so eager to find them. It also justifies why they need to hurry so much more, and bust Zemo out instead of going through legal channels in some way, or going a slower route of using something like Redwing to find them again. In a story with the bioterrorist aerial plague Flag Smashers, Sam and Bucky would NEED to hurry, before they commit their dastardly deeds. In a plot where they're.....giving refugees vaccines, it comes off as the heroes escalating for no good reason.

This brings my other question into this. Just what kind of legal power does Sam Wilson have? He can clearly get access to Zemo, and thinks he can swing a pardon for Sharon, but he also doesn't have the money to rebuild his family's boat or get a loan. What kind of position is Sam Wilson in?
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Crazedwraith »

I assume if they've shot the Flagsmashers to make them more sympathetic they've reshot Falcon and Winter Soldier's reactions to them? Certainly they're now much more concerned with the supersoldier aspect than the political change aspect.

Knowing nothing about the original plot or reshoots, i'd expect Sam and Bucky to be a lot more sympathetic to the flag smashers after seeing their situation and Walker to remain extremely opposed leading to a confrontation between them.


eta: I wonder about Sam's abillity to get pardons as well. I assume it's related to his 'there's a lot of goodwill involved' bit in episode 1, but Buck who literally helped saved the world from Thanos is an easier sell for a pardon than Sharon. (though the crimes he needs pardoning for are a lot worse albiet he was brainwashed so...)
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by GuppyShark »

I agree Fax. Even Steve Rogers was willing to admit there were silver linings to the post snap world, something about dolphins or whales in the Hudson River. Now we have that ominous Global Resource Committee sitting on supplies that are desperately needed by displaced populations, complete with the Starship Troopers style advertising.

And speaking of Pardons. Why on earth Sharon didn't get one baffles me, and at my family Easter lunch it was probably the most unanimously agreed upon topic that it's inexplicable. Everyone else got one! Bucky murdered US citizens, all Sharon did was help Captain freaking America.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Crazedwraith »

Just saw a comment elsewhere that pointed out that the show's 6 episodes long. So it's half over.

That worries me; there's no way they can not rush the rest of the story, with only 3 episodes left.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by LadyTevar »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-04-06 02:54pm Just saw a comment elsewhere that pointed out that the show's 6 episodes long. So it's half over.

That worries me; there's no way they can not rush the rest of the story, with only 3 episodes left.
I'm betting on a very tight script.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Grand Moff Yenchin »

Daniel Brühl has mentioned in an interview that he improvised and danced a lot more than the scene in Madripoor.
The fans immediately cried out to "Release the Zemo Cut".
Marvel has heard the fans and released the Zemo Cut. 1 hr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nEzCv5u1O8

I believe there are shorter versions on Youtube if you look hard enough.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Elheru Aran »

Watched the latest episode today.

A few quick thoughts.

--It was highly pleasant to see Walker get his ass professionally kicked by the Dora Milaje. Who are now rather irked at Bucky, no doubt. One wonders if they considered claiming the shield as Wakandan vibranium and take it back with them.

--Sam may not have the super-soldier serum in his veins... but he can still handle himself pretty well. In more ways than one. If Walker hadn't butted in, he might even have been able to talk Karli down. He's definitely coming off as more of a genuine 'good guy'.

--Walker definitely took the serum. It doesn't seem to have done his personality any favors. Chopping a guy into bits with the shield has to seem rather sacrilegious to Sam and Bucky...
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by LadyTevar »

The last 5 minutes is me going "holy shit holy shit holy shit".
Yeah, that's not the image America wants -- Captain America killing a helpless man in Cold Blood. This just went FUBAR.

What's worse, it went FUBAR because Walker couldn't wait 10 damn minutes, couldn't wait to see if they heard fighting start, couldn't believe that Sam was doing exactly what Sam said he could -- Talk to Karli.
And Sam was getting thru to Karli. He was building a rapport, they were talking rationally, it could have worked -- if Walker wasn't an impatient self-righteous, gotta-be-the-hero SOB.

Yeah. Some hero. So full of doubt, self-hatred, and rage, and just HAD to take that last dose of SuperSerum. Because maybe THAT would make Walker good enough. The doctor said it wouldn't make physical changes, but he never said a thing about the mental ones.

And the PowerBroker is back in play, knowing where Karli is, wanting his serum back or else.
If Sharon didn't specifically state repeatedly that PowerBroker is a "he/Him", I'd be wondering her place in this. Hell, I'm starting to wonder if she works for "him" too.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Batman »

If the serum doesn't make physical changes one wonders how the Super Soldiers are so much better than the already surprisingly resilient and performant MCU normals.

And I kinda can see where Walker was coming from. after a fashion-he was perfectly aware the things he got those medals for were far from heroic, thinking the serum would let him be a 'real' hero, not understanding that what made Steve a hero was never the powers.
Doesn't change the fact that he messed up big time especially at the end but when they-repeatedly-label you a hero for stuff you know was at best dubious wouldn't you want to be a 'real' hero for a change?
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Agent Fisher »

Welp, New Cap goes bad. Saw that coming from the trailers of the show.

Special Forces. Captain. Multiple Deployments & missions. 3 Medals Of Honor(which seems way overboard to me. Only 19 people have gotten it twice, but sure, gotta make him seem even more like an amazing fit so his eventual fall seems so much more harsh). Used to working in teams where trusting in other elements of the team and waiting for them is critical.

All that experience on his resume, dude can't wait ten minutes? Like, I'd buy him and his sidekick and Bucky waiting by the door, listening in. But nope, can't wait ten minutes, just barge in.

Oh, and I'm so glad we continue the trope of 'Oh, found a vial with blue liquid, fuck it, just inject it, can't be anything bad right?'
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Batman »

To be fair Walker had little reason to assume it 'wasn't' the Super Soldier serum
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by GuppyShark »

He might have been briefed on what it looked like, in order to know what they were searching for.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Agent Fisher »

Fair enough, yeah. I just always think of the scene from the movie Showtime, where Will Shatner is teaching Edie Murphy as a cop how to taste drugs for the camera. And Robert DiNiro who's a salty old detective goes 'What if it's Cynanide? There's a reason real cops don't taste drugs.'
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Gandalf »

Perhaps a decade plus of living under the threat of superpeople has altered the risk analysis procedures of people in the MCU?

Desperation drove them all over the cliff perhaps.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

--It was highly pleasant to see Walker get his ass professionally kicked by the Dora Milaje. Who are now rather irked at Bucky, no doubt. One wonders if they considered claiming the shield as Wakandan vibranium and take it back with them.
They did but decided against it, when they found the "off switch" which detached Bucky's arm I thought they might try taking both shield and arm, though given Bucky's shoulder has the socket where the arm attaches it begs the question how much Wakandan tech they put in his body beyond what we can see.

Minor point, but Turkish delight cubes do not come individually wrapped unless Zemo actually took the time to repackage them himself. No-one has yet talked about how Zemo escaped in the confusion when Walker and the Wakandans showed up arguing then fighting over jurisdiction, they doubtless went after him though they didn't seem to be in any great hurry.

New!Cap going over the edge upon his partner getting killed and bludgeoning to death some guy with the shield and it doubtless going viral was the headline, I hope we see the reactions when his superiors get wind of this, including one Thunderbolt Ross.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by LadyTevar »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2021-04-10 07:06pm Minor point, but Turkish delight cubes do not come individually wrapped unless Zemo actually took the time to repackage them himself. No-one has yet talked about how Zemo escaped in the confusion when Walker and the Wakandans showed up arguing then fighting over jurisdiction, they doubtless went after him though they didn't seem to be in any great hurry.

New!Cap going over the edge upon his partner getting killed and bludgeoning to death some guy with the shield and it doubtless going viral was the headline, I hope we see the reactions when his superiors get wind of this, including one Thunderbolt Ross.
Well, from the open grate I assumed Zemo ducked down the sewer, so I'm betting that's where the Dora headed.

And yes, there were a LOT of people with their smartphones out, filming the scene. We will probably get to hear radio-reactions, like we overheard when the "Patch Act" was mentioned. We'll see Sam and Bucky watching TV, or something. We might see Walker's reaction to his superiors trying to reign him in.

I'm expecting Ep 5 will be the attempt to reign in Walker, and Ep 6 the aftermath as Sam picks up the shield.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Crazedwraith »

Damn, so yeah, that episode was a lot better and advanced the story in ways I want to see. A little vexed Zemo was more personable and effective than Sam with the refugees but they made the reasons clear.

Sam gets to be competent, he was getting through to Karli before Walker interrupts, compassionate. He gets a varied of emotional scenes, especially with his sister. He has strong but fair view and he holds his own in the supersoldier fight using the flightback bravo.

Likewise Walker’s arc in this episode is excellent. His reaction to getting his asswhupped by the Dora ‘they weren’t even supersoldiers’ shows his sense of inadequency amazingly and of course Lemar’s death and his reaction to it is the point of no return.

The final shot of Captain America with a bloodied shied… A+++
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Crazedwraith »

Batman wrote: 2021-04-09 10:23pm If the serum doesn't make physical changes one wonders how the Super Soldiers are so much better than the already surprisingly resilient and performant MCU normals.
What the doctor said was that it didn't make physical changes the same that Steve got. You get the physical enhancements getting the instant sterioid workout that change steve from 'tiny' to 'specimen'.

Which is why the Flashsmashers look like normal people and not body builders or super atheletes or anything.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

What Rogers got that no other recipient did was time in the Vita-Ray chamber immediately after being injected with the serum. He also got infused with six vials of the stuff, though its concentration compared to the later stuff is unknown.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by Crazedwraith »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2021-04-11 12:15pm What Rogers got that no other recipient did was time in the Vita-Ray chamber immediately after being injected with the serum. He also got infused with six vials of the stuff, though its concentration compared to the later stuff is unknown.
Lack of need for Vita Rays is one of the improvements Nagel cites of his new formula along with the lack of bulking up effect. It's intentional in this case.

Not in the others, It's implied in Avengers that the Hulk was created buy substituting gamma rays for vita rays in the process, though I don't think that was reference again anyway.
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Re: Falcon & Winter Soldier -- SPOILER THREAD

Post by GuppyShark »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-04-11 12:59pmNot in the others, It's implied in Avengers that the Hulk was created buy substituting gamma rays for vita rays in the process, though I don't think that was reference again anyway.
Also how Blonsky became the Abomination (in possibly the only MCU movie that you can't see on Disney+, because Universal owns it.)
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