Can the federation genetically engineer a super soldier

[mr friendly guy]

There was an episode in TNG where the Enterprise encounters Rogan Brogar and other aliens who were genetically engineered to fight.

Also we know that Bashir was genetically altered.

What I want to know is can Federation technology genetically engineer a super soldier along the lines of Rogan Brogar, what features would this soldier be capable off, and which alien will they use for genetic material

Note -While the Federation may not sanction such a thing, I can easily see Section 31 willing to do it behind teh Federations back.

[Bounty]

What I want to know is can Federation technology genetically engineer a super soldier along the lines of Rogan Brogar, what features would this soldier be capable off, and which alien will they use for genetic material

Uhm - Khan ?

The Federation still has the data on the original Augments, so breeding new ones - excepting legal and ethical barriers - shouldn't be a problem. They are physically stronger then Klingons, have increased intelligence and endurance and can shrug off phase pistol blasts.

Bizarrely, the Federation is openly breeding genetically enhanced personnal, they're shown in the TNG episode with the rapid aging virus (Unnatural Selection, I believe); though that research is limited to immune system enhancements.

[FTeik]

They also included long-livety, increased will-power and intelligence and telepathic abilities in the mix.

One has to wonder, where Federation-law was then (thinks about a certain doctor).

[Bounty]

One has to wonder, where Federation-law was then (thinks about a certain doctor).

The only explanation I can think of is that the Darwin experiment happened under tight Federation control, whereas Bashir was created illegally.

It's still an odd continuity error.

EDIT : A list of Bashir's enhancements from Memory Alpha :

At age six, Bashir was small, not very bright and a bit physically awkward, for his age. In the first grade, while the other children were learning how to read and write and use a computer, Julian was was still trying to tell a dog from a cat and a tree from a house.
--
In 2348, just before Julian's seventh birthday, the Bashir family left Earth for Adigeon Prime. At first, he was excited to see all the aliens in the hospital, but then they gave him a room and started a series of treatments. These treatments, known as "accelerated critical neural pathway formation," was a method of genetic engineering that involved the resequencing of his DNA.
--
The focus of his "enhancements" were to increase his mental abilities: his IQ jumped five points a day for over two weeks. Further treatments led to improvements in his hand-eye coordination, reflexes, vision, stamina, height, weight. In the end everything but his name had been altered in some way.

[VT-16]

According to production info from TMP, there´s a Federation member race who can clone an army in short time to fight for the Federation. Unfortunately, this info seems to disappear with any future series.

[Patrick Degan]

If the Federation's genetic engineering efforts are run the same way their warp engineering efforts are, their super-soldiers would have the unfortunate tendency to explode if they got so much as a paper-cut.

[The Grim Squeaker]

If the Federation's genetic engineering efforts are run the same way their warp engineering efforts are, their super-soldiers would have the unfortunate tendency to explode if they got so much as a paper-cut.

That's quite probable considering Fed biology's "stability"

[Bounty]

That's quite probable considering Fed biology's "stability"

With useless replies like that, it's no wonder you amassed 1000 posts in two weeks.

I'd just like to point out that Bashir suffered no side-effects from his genetic engineering, the original augments worked perfectly (except for the "huge ego" part, but that was an unavoidable side-effect) and in general, warp cores are perfectly stable, unless it's a Mk I Galaxy core.

[NecronLord]

I'd just like to point out that Bashir suffered no side-effects from his genetic engineering,

If you closed the flapping arse that is your mouth and engaged your brain, assuming that you have one, you would note that Bashir is the exception to the norm. The norm are those idiots with no social skills who can magically tell what Gul Dukat had for breakfast, remember?

[Bounty]

I'd just like to point out that Bashir suffered no side-effects from his genetic engineering,

If you closed the flapping arse that is your mouth and engaged your brain, assuming that you have one, you would note that Bashir is the exception to the norm. The norm are those idiots with no social skills who can magically tell what Gul Dukat had for breakfast, remember?

Yes, I have a brain, no, it wasn't working. Of course there's the looney gang. I can't believe I forgot those.

[Uraniun235]

Is it possible the social misfits are a result of their illicit nature?

Otherwise, it's pretty pathetic that the 24th century cannot match the 20th century's genetic engineering.

According to production info from TMP,

This sounds extremely intriguing. Link?

[NecronLord]

Is it possible the social misfits are a result of their illicit nature?

Yes. Though the idea that a far suprior federation human genetic engineering tech base exists somewhere is pure fantasy.

Otherwise, it's pretty pathetic that the 24th century cannot match the 20th century's genetic engineering.

But not exactly shocking. They can't even dream about matching our ground based military capability now can they? Nor for that matter, would the Federation's finest manage to qualify as modern engineers.

Also, I note that our ability to reliably genetically manipulate a post-natal human is still, far in a way inferior to theirs. I find it unlikely at best that we could dick about with the human brain in the same manner the Federation's criminals do and keep the victim sane.

[SCVN 2812]

Is it possible the social misfits are a result of their illicit nature?

Otherwise, it's pretty pathetic that the 24th century cannot match the 20th century's genetic engineering.

On the other hand, Kahn and his gang could be composed entirely of Bashirs, i.e. the ones who turned out to be as stable as self declared princes with ambitions of global dominion can possibly be. Most of the rejects that Bashir was introduced to would be of little use to Kahn and thus their 20th century equivalents would be the last ones picked to accompany him on Botany Bay.

[Noble Ire]

On the other hand, Kahn and his gang could be composed entirely of Bashirs, i.e. the ones who turned out to be as stable as self declared princes with ambitions of global dominion can possibly be. Most of the rejects that Bashir was introduced to would be of little use to Kahn and thus their 20th century equivalents would be the last ones picked to accompany him on Botany Bay.

Of course, this group would be extremely unreliable. Soldiers with too many personal ambitions can be extremely dangerous.

[NecronLord]

Oh. He means pie-in-the-sky Star Trek Genegeneering.

Well. Put simply.

Bashir's Gang of Misfits: Tampered with post-natally.
Kahn's lot: Tampered with from the get go.

[SCVN 2812]

Oh. He means pie-in-the-sky Star Trek Genegeneering.

Well. Put simply.

Bashir's Gang of Misfits: Tampered with post-natally.
Kahn's lot: Tampered with from the get go.

A distinction the significance of which I missed at first but the former would likely be far more difficult to accomplish successfully, while with the latter the failures can be swept under the rug more easily.

To my knowledge we haven't even begun large scale experimentation with pre or post-natal genetic engineering so whatever their failure rate is in the 24th century, that they can do it at all with some success makes their ability superior to our own.

[NecronLord]

In animals, a large portion of genetically modified eggs do not carry to term. Our methods simply aren't yet good enough.

[Darth Wong]

Most of the physical enhancements that people wank about in "super-soldier" threads are actually of relatively little use to a real soldier. Perhaps the most important characteristic is discipline, and I don't know if you can really genetically engineer that into somebody, unless you make major changes to his basic human nature.

[FedRebel]

According to production info from TMP, there´s a Federation member race who can clone an army in short time to fight for the Federation. Unfortunately, this info seems to disappear with any future series.

Kamino, the 151st member world!

[Superman]

Can they? Most definately yes. Would they? No.

[Admiral_K]

Most of the physical enhancements that people wank about in "super-soldier" threads are actually of relatively little use to a real soldier. Perhaps the most important characteristic is discipline, and I don't know if you can really genetically engineer that into somebody, unless you make major changes to his basic human nature.

There are some things you could genetic engineer such as increased fine motor skills and body control (to assist in aiming), senses (improved eye sight, hearing, etc), increased stamina and endurance that would definately beneift the average soldier. Although these would be of much more benefit to special forces rather than your average grunt.

Basically though, the advantage of increase strength (in a fight at least) is only useful in last ditch hand to hand combat which would be very rare.

[Zor]

Most of the physical enhancements that people wank about in "super-soldier" threads are actually of relatively little use to a real soldier. Perhaps the most important characteristic is discipline, and I don't know if you can really genetically engineer that into somebody, unless you make major changes to his basic human nature.

Disipline/Loyalty is nothing we need to increase. Baseline Humans durring the second world war were ordered and willing to (among other things) Crash Planes into Ships and sit in holes with aircraft bombs and a hammer, wait for a tank to ride over and smash the bomb till they explode.

You can make super soldiers, just Geneticly engineer a Better General Human and make shure that a good size chunk of the population gets them. You get both better soldiers and around the moral crap about rasing people spacificly to be soldiers.

Zor

[mr friendly guy]

For the average grunt, I suppose some advantages are more adaptability to alien environments, and the most defining advantage is fast maturity so they can be mass produced.

For the standard "super soldier" fare which gets wanked, those abilities might be more useful for special ops, which is what I had in mind for what Section 31 would use.

[Lord Poe]

There was an episode in TNG where the Enterprise encounters Rogan Brogar and other aliens who were genetically engineered to fight.

Do you mean Roga Danar in "The Hunted?"

What I want to know is can Federation technology genetically engineer a super soldier along the lines of Rogan Brogar, what features would this soldier be capable off, and which alien will they use for genetic material

Of course they can. In the above episode, the planet Danar comes from was applying for Federation membership; which means they've just achieved warp technology and a world governing body. The Federation would of course be more advanced than they are.

Danar wasn't superhumanly strong, but his reflexes and stength were enhanced, as well as his combat skills.

[Darth Wong]

Disipline/Loyalty is nothing we need to increase. Baseline Humans durring the second world war were ordered and willing to (among other things) Crash Planes into Ships and sit in holes with aircraft bombs and a hammer, wait for a tank to ride over and smash the bomb till they explode.

Some humans were willing to do that. Most were not. Did you know that more Japanese kamikaze pilots died trying to ditch or land their aircraft than actually flying into American ships? Why do you think they taught them how to take off and fly but not how to land?

You can make super soldiers, just Geneticly engineer a Better General Human and make shure that a good size chunk of the population gets them. You get both better soldiers and around the moral crap about rasing people spacificly to be soldiers.

"Better" in what way? Stronger? Larger? Faster? The usual wank?