Star Trek Communism add-on maybe?

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-06 11:00pm

I was reading the essays on Federation Communism, and I did agree, but I came across some research when studying up on Technocracy that developed around 1919 by Howard Scott.

Apparently, the movement began in the winter of 1919, and it gained momentum throughout the 1930's to the 1970's. The movement basically calls for a slow elimination fo the Price System in the North American Continent and replacing it with what the their engineers call continental energy accounting. Now, I am not an expert, so I cannot really explain much about it, but it deals with elimination of money and use of man hours and energy consumption inthe management of how demand is met by supply.

It's supposed to work largely with what they somewhat refer to as an economy of abundance.

Now. The site says that the Federation in Star Trek, dreamed up by Gene Roddenberry, had this movement in mind when he later created his universe. From what I read, he created it along the lines of an internal moneyless economy and political institution based on "scientific progress and the good of the many." People could get whatever they wanted, they had a considerable amount of culture and leisure time (this was technocracy), yet they still worked to maintain some of the basic portions of the infrastructure.

They also worked for the betterment of mankind.

Now, Technocracy, from what I have read, directly influenced Roddenberry, but it's not Communism or Socialism. It has a different base philosphy and totally different criteria--again, from what I have seen and heard. Some people think technocracy is communistic, but it's not. It seems like it on the outside, according to the literature.

Is this information useful at all you to? I can post more of what I found if you find it helpful or good.

Ra · Post by Ra » 2005-04-06 11:26pm

If the Federation really is a "technocracy", this may serve to vindicate some of their bad commie reputation, including with myself. Please post more evidence. I think this is a new twist on the Star Trek economy that hasn't been tackled before.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-04-06 11:51pm

I guess. Makes sense, actually, if you think about it. At least working with thsi evidence.

Technonracy doesnt sound so bad actually, maybe a tad more workable than communism.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-07 12:04am

http://www.technocracy.ca/modules.php?o ... load&cid=1

That lists some basic information about the system thought up for a Technate.

They are Pdf's, but you can use them separately. The link above won't auto download or anything.

http://www.technocracy.ca/simp/begin.htm

This is a beginners page.

From what I have also read, the Technocratic movement was a major one in the early to mind 20th century, but it somewhat fell apart due to the very poor public relations ability of Scott. He wasn't a very politically correct person. I think he said the factor owners, if they didn't like the plan, should have a bayonet shouved up their asses.

Right now, it's still a government recognized educational research group called Technocracy Inc. There's also a european and russian version of it that's getting together again.

What I figure is that Gene Roddenberry, in order to get the "abundance economy," made up the idea of some form of replicator, so he wouldn't be accused copyright infringement or something. If everything's abundant, then there's no need for money. They can get everything they want as long as they work a short period of time maintain the system of automation that runs the economy.

Energy Accounting
Information Brief Number 29
1955
Obsolete System

The Price System grew out of the days of scarcity, when trading his crude materials or stealing them, was the only way in which man could acquire the articles which he required. Through complex ramifications the trading system has grown until it is now the overwhelming structure of finance, business commerce, and politics, in short, the Price System in toto--a gigantic structure, but still just a method of exchanging goods, springing from the ancient custom and necessity of barter. No intention or pretense is made of accurate measurement or control; no physical accounting is involved; no accurate predictions can be made; and no stabilization can be assured. The Price System is simply a method of erratic exchange. In scarcity it sufficed well enough as an exchange method; in abundance it cannot even do that.

The dislocation of the commodity exchange method of distributing goods and services became apparent after World War 1. The disrupted conditions at that time led to a scientific investigation which in turn proved that the only common denominator of all goods and services was energy.

The scientists who pointed this out simply proposed to measure the total amount of energy used by the North American Continent in a given period; measure the energy cost of physical production and services; and use these measurements as the basis for regulation of all Continental production and distribution.

Technocracy Is The Tool

Technocracy's basic postulate is, `The phenomena involved in the functional operation of a social mechanism are metrical.' In other words, anything that materially affects us or changes our environment is measurable. The scientists and technologists know this and have applied it directly to the task of equipping North America with the most intricate and efficient productive mechanism ever to exist on earth. When they are given their chance they will see that the abundant goods and services produced are adequately distributed to everyone on the Continent. Technocracy is the tool by which North Americans may gain abundance and security.

Technocracy would put into operation a Continental control of all flow lines of production and distribution a Continental statistical system which would record the desires of every citizen in his choice of consumable goods and available services. This system would do the following things in a physical area where abundance is certain:

1. Register on a continuous 24-hour-per day basis the total net conversion of energy, which would determine (a) the availability of energy for Continental plant construction and maintenance, (b) the amount of physical wealth available in the form of consumable goods and services for consumption by the total population during the balance-load period.
2. By means of the registration of energy converted and consumed, make possible a balanced load.
3. Provide a continuous inventory of all production and consumption.
4. Provide a specific registration of the type, kind, etc., of all goods and services, where produced, and where used.
5. Provide a specific registration of the consumption of each individual, plus a record and description of the individual.
6. Allow the citizen the widest latitude of choice in consuming his individual share of Continental physical wealth.
7. Distribute goods and services abundantly to every member of the population.

Why Not Money?

On the basis of these requirements, it is interesting to consider money as a possible medium of distribution. But before doing this, let us bear in mind what the properties of money are. In the first place, money relationships are all based upon 'value,' which in turn is a function of scarcity. Hence money is not a 'measure' of anything. Secondly, money is a debt claim against society and is valid in the hands of any bearer. In other words, it is negotiable; it can be traded, stolen, given or gambled away. Thirdly, money can be saved. Fourthly, money circulates, and is not destroyed or canceled out upon being spent. On each of these counts money fails to meet our requirements as our medium of distribution.

Money Is Inadequate

Suppose, for instance, that we attempted to distribute by means of money the goods and services produced. Suppose that it were decided that 200 billion dollars' worth of goods and services were to be produced in a given year, and suppose further that 200 billion dollars were distributed to the population during that time with which to purchase these goods and services. Immediately the foregoing properties of money would create trouble. Due to the fact that money is not a physical measure of goods and services, there is no assurance that prices would not change during the year, and that 200 billion dollars issued for use in a given year would be used in that year. If it were not used this would immediately begin to curtail production and start oscillations. Due to the fact that money is negotiable, and that certain human beings, by hook or crook, have a facility for getting it away from other human beings, this would defeat the requirement that distribution must reach all human beings. A further consequence of the negotiability of money is that it can be used very effectively for purposes of bribery. Hence the most successful accumulators of money would be able eventually not only to disrupt the flow line, but also to buy a controlling interest in the social mechanism itself, which brings us right back to where we started from.

Due to the fact that money is a species of debt, and hence cumulative, the amount would have to be continuously increased, which, in conjunction with its property of being negotiable, would lead inevitably to concentration of control in a few hands, and to general disruption of the distribution system which was supposed to be maintained.

Thus, money in any form whatsoever is completely inadequate as a medium of distribution in an economy of abundance with a Price System control. Any social system employing commodity evaluation (commodity valuations are the basis of all money) is a Price System. Hence it is not possible to maintain an economy of abundance by means of a Price System.

The Scientific Answer

Technocracy's Energy Certificate is the only instrument of distribution which can be used in this Continent's emerging era of abundance--the progress of which is being speeded up by automation. This Energy Certificate provides the accounting means whereby each individual North American can express his individual preference as to what he wants of the products North America is capable of producing. That is its function--to record the demand for goods and services and, thereby, to determine the amount to be produced. By applying one specific technological measuring device, production and consumption can be balanced and the first specification for social harmony is immediately achievable.

Vote With Meaning

The only real vote is purchasing power. What we buy we vote for. With an abundance of purchasing power we can vote as often as we like, every day of the year, and always win our vote.

The Energy Certificate eliminates both the basis and the need of all social work and charity. It would reduce crime to but a small fraction of what exists today.

If you don't like the war, the poverty, the misery, the waste, the crime, the disease, and the corruption which the Price System spawns, why do you stick with it?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Energy Certificate

PART 1
The Application of Science To The Means Whereby We Live

Through countless centuries man has found his own security in the insecurity of others, has found his own economic and cultural haven at the expense of poverty and subservience in the majority, has found that a higher station in life was possible only for the few, not the multitude.

Throughout man's history a gigantic effort has been going on to erase from the face of the earth all evil between individuals, races, and nations. The approach has been an attempt at reforming and converting the individual with the hope that sufficient numbers of "good" men and women gathered in all lands might allow a lasting agreement upon the existing physical conflicts to be achieved. There is no need to picture here the futility of this approach and its very evident failure to accomplish the idealistic dreams.

It is perhaps one of the major ironies of history that a new and the only adequate approach should have been projected and offered by certain interpreters of applied physical science who distinctly disclaim as their motivating force all idealistic search for truth, love, peace, harmony, and other imponderables.

These interpreters, men of science, undertook an analysis of the operational problems of the North American Continental area. From this analysis they synthesized a technological design of social operation which they predicted as the next most probable form of social control in this area. It was objectively presented. By it, human history can become for the first time a planned progression, based on an a quantitative analysis of the continental totality, as contrasted with the old haphazard increment of the components peculiar to evolution; i.e. the planned arrival of the fittest, instead of the mere survival of the fittest.

It is precisely the intricate immenseness of the Continental Problems arising in the control and operation of a unique high-energy civilization that requires and results in a unique and entirely new social methodology.

Energy, The Cause

The increase of energy-consuming devices in a high-energy civilization tends to nullify all concepts of `value' inherent in those previous ages. The rate of extraneous energy consumption on this Continental area has reached an order of magnitude which results in a plethora of goods and services beyond the manageable limits of our present control technique.

When power is used in vast quantities the resultant is an abundance of goods and services. Never in history has man faced the technical problem of distributing an achieved abundance. His efforts in the past have been directed toward philosophical speculation as to how an abundance might be achieved. Now, abundance has been thrust upon him by technology. One technical problem has been solved, but man, not realizing that he is faced with another technical problem, has turned to philosophic speculation to solve the distribution conundrum.

The availability and use of vast quantities of power opens up many vistas of possible human achievement hitherto seen only as shifting mirages by utopian dreamers of history. It realizes the physical fact of abundance. It contains within itself the technique whereby that abundance can be distributed. It provides, not just another variation of the method of haphazard exchange now in operation throughout the world, but a technique of mensuration, a physical accounting system on a Continental order of magnitude. This Continental accounting system in operation would be the arrival of certainty in all human physical requirements.

Social Design Now Possible

Science and technology have developed the method of research and analysis. Man is now an adept with honor-roll of achievement in the discovery and classification of physical knowledge by which he has constructed energy consuming devices that have created a new world. Today, the data are available. More research is being conducted than ever before. No area on earth excels the Continent of North America in this respect. In the matter of design too, science and technology have made strides, but only in the minutiae of science and technology.

Man has designed and construc ted enormous dams, power plants, canals, but he has never designed and constructed a continental hydrology. Man has designed streamlined trains, and magnificent railroad terminals, but never an integrated, continental system of low cost rail transportation. Man has designed automobiles and highways, but never a superhighway system with control of traffic origination and load factor. Man has designed mammoth strip steel mills, but not an automatic steel sequence from iron ore to finished product. Man has built haphazard Price System economies and political empires, but never has he designed a self-contained technologically controlled social mechanism.

In other words, the design of the past has been but the design of the minutiae, the working up from the part to the whole; and not the design of the whole. leading down into the microcosmic parts of the entity. When a continental social mechanism is designed as an operational totality, then and then only, will the results of the whole exceed the sum of its parts. When and only when, all the factors relevant to the operation of a social mechanism are measurable, is a planned social structure possible. With unmeasurable factors, effective social planning is impossible. Today, the predominant unmeasurable factor is `price' which explains why neither the United States or Russia, nor any other area on earth has been able to effect a planned economy.

But of course science and technology have never had the opportunity, until four decades ago, to design in this manner. Science and technology are comparatively new. They have been engaged in building with the tools of the knowledge at hand. They have never looked upon the social order, unless it be in a Jekyll and Hyde escape from their laboratory. Therefore, the discovery of the importance of the energy factor in social measurement was made by a scientist who never left his laboratory--a scientist whose laboratory was a Continent.

Measurement by Energy Cost

The dislocation of the commodity exchange method of distributing goods and services, and economics in general, became apparent after world war I. The disrupted conditions at that time led to an investigation which in turn uncovered the astounding, yet almost obvious, fact that the only common denominator of all commodities and services is energy.

The scientists who pointed this out, simply proposed to measure the total amount of energy used by the Continent in a given period; measure the energy cost of physical production and use these measurements as a basis for the regulation of all Continental production and distribution.

The Price System

The Price System grew out of the days of scarcity, when trading his crude materials, or stealing them, was the only way in which man could acquire the articles which he required.. Through complex ramifications the trading system has grown until it is now the overwhelming structure of finance, business, commerce, and politics, in short, the Price System in toto--a gigantic structure, but still just a method of exchanging goods, springing from the ancient custom and necessity of barter. No intention or pretense is made of accurate mensuration or control; no physical accounting is involved; no accurate predictions can be made; and no stabilization can be assured. The Price System is simply a method of erratic exchange. In scarcity it sufficed well enough as an exchange method; in abundance it cannot even do that.

When the possibility of assuring accurate measurement of all goods and services in quantitative physical terms was announced, it was treated with scorn by all of the institutions of the Price System. To take science out of the laboratory, and apply it to social operations was considered heretical. But now the inevitability of such development is fast becoming accepted. Those who are blind to the the acceptance of this new thing will be like those who refused to accept the coming of the railroad. They will have to accept it or remove themselves from its sphere. Let us add, that it is a long, cold swim to the next continent.

Facts and Social Progression

Physical development has made the next step mandatory; and Technocracy, grown from the work of interpreters of science previously mentioned, now states the following unqualified facts: that we live on the North American Continent; that this Continent has abundant resources; that its population is the most nearly homogeneous of any like area on the earth; that we have designed, built and are operating the largest and most complex array of technological equipment in existence; that we have more men and women technically trained than any other area on earth; that we have the highest average consumption of extraneous energy per capita of any continent.

Technocracy also states: that there need be no restriction of our physical standard of living due to inadequate resources; that we can only continue toward maximum physical consumption by the increased substitution of kilowatt-hours for man hours, and by a continuous improvement of our equipment; that we will be forced to greater and greater integration of our physical equipment; that we will be forced to adopt a technological administration of all sequences of social operations.

This then is our social progression whether we like it or not. If we do not accept these physical conditions, and refuse to adopt a method of control capable of administering these processes, there is only the other alternative--complete abandonment of our technological developments, with the consequent chaos. It is not likely that we will permit that catastrophe. The American people are going to demand that we move forward; and they, the American people, are going to conscript their leaders, the technologist, scientists, and engineers, to lead them to a New America.

The following sections are not yet available for this online version:

Scientific Control

The Technate will put into operation a Continental control of all flow lines of production and distribution--a Continental statistics expressing the desires of every citizen in his choice of consumable goods and available serices. This system will do the following things in a physical entity where abundance is certain;

1. Register on a continuous 24-hour time period basis the total net conversion of energy, which would determine (a) the availability of energy for Continental plant construction and maintenance, (b) the amount of physical wealth available in the form of the total population during the balance load period.
2. By means of the registration of energy converted and consumed, make possible a balanced load period.
3. Provide a continuous 24-hour inventory of all production and consumption.
4. Provide a specific registration of the type, kind, size, etc., of all goods and services, where produced, and where used.
5. Provide specific registration of the consumption of each individual, plus a record and description of the individual.
6. Allow the citizen the widest latitude of choice in consuming his individual share of Continental physical wealth.
7. Distribute goods and services to every member of the population.

The operation problem of producing Continental abundance is without precedence in the social history of man. The magnitude of this operational problem prescribes that there can be only a unique solution. The physical wealth of Continental abundance can be produced only by the technological application of extraneous energy to all means of production and distribution, namely, to the means whereby human beings live. This Continental production of abundance therefore will necessitate the largest per capita consumption of extraneous energu possible of achievement, consonant with maximum conservation of natural resources.

The degradation of this volume of extraneous energy on the Continent in the process of producting abundance would require the maximum efficiency at the closest approach to full load operation. It is obvious that the production of the physical wealth of Continental abundance will be attained only with human toil at a minimum, and it therefore follows that the unique solution of this operational problem must be the accurate measurement of all extraneous energy converted on the Continental area, and the continuous recording of its allocated degradation in providing the citizens of this continent with the physical wealth of abundance for individual consumption. Science and technology have no values; only measurement. The only method known to science in the measurement of the cost of all physical opeartions is that mount of energy consumed per unit mass, per unit time, per unit distance. Technocracy presents the only metrical control of the conversion and consumption of extraneous energy on this Continental area.
PART 2
The Energy Certificate

The total amount of certificates which will be issued will represent the total amount of net energy converted in the making of goods and the provision of services. All operating, replacement, maintenance, and expansion costs (in energy) of the Continental complex, all costs of commercial services and provisions (such as local transportation, public health, and minimum housing space for for each individual) are deducted before the net energy is arrived at.

The conversion of human energy does not enter into this calculation since it amounts to below 2 percent of the total consumed energy. The individual's share is not based upon his contribution of work of effort to the total operations of the area. There is no theory of labor `value'--or of any other `value'.

Individual Consuming Privileges

Every adult above 25 years of age will receive as his share of purchasing power an equal part of the total net consumed energy, and from birth to the twenty-fifth year every individual will receive a maintenance allowance.

The certificate will be issued directly to the the individual. It is non-transferable and non-negotiable, and therefore it cannot be stolen, lost, loaned, borrowed, or given away. It is non-cumulative, therefore cannot be saved; and does not bear interest. It need not be spent but loses its validity after a designated time period.

The female will receive the same amount of purchasing power as the male, and receive it entirely indipendent of him.

The energy certificate represents equal, though not identical, purchasing power for every adult living on this Continent. In itself it represents nothing of value. It is much in the nature of a blank check--a scrap of paper.

The certificate is valid only for the purchase of items individually consumable. Means of production and distribution are not obtainable by the individual. The individual owns nothing beyond his immediate personal implements and apparel. For example, he does not own an automobile but merely pays for the use of transportation facilities on a time-distance basis.

Technocrcay's mechanics of social control will permit no curtailment or differentiated increases of individual purchasing power.

The available use forms and services will most probably be beyond the consuming power of the individual.
Social Decision

The certificate furnishes the individual with the means of maximum social expression and decision, since purchasing power is the only means whereby the individual as such can participate in directing the variations possible within the limits prescribed by the energy determinants of the area wherein he lives. The rate of flow of goods and services in abundant quantities can be controlled by no other mechanism than an exact means of distribution such as the energy certificate provides. Incidentally, the energy certificate is not applicable to any society operating under scarcity conditions, or any area dependent beyond a certain maximium upon other areas for its supply of energy and resources.

The energy certificate eliminates both the basis and need of all social work, charity, and philanthropy. It will reduce crime to but a small fraction of what exists today. That fraction will fall into the field of pathology. The reduction will not be due to any change in human nature, but to the absence of objects of `value' and the lack of gain to be had. The element of a chance to win or the risk to lose, disappears.

This means of distribution, based on a determinable change of physical cost per unit produced and of service provided, is not subject to fluctuations of `value.'

Identifying the Citizen

The energy certificate* will be made of water-marked paper and be issued in strips folded into rectangular booklets small enough to be carried conveniently in the pocket. [no illustration yet]

It will have one of three colors, to identify the person to whom it is being issued (hereafter called the holder) as being in the age-group below 25, between 25 and 45, or above 45.

On the one side will be printed a diagonal line whose direction will indicate the sex of the holder. Upper right to lower left will indicate it has been issued to a female; upper left to lower right (as in the figure), to a male.

On the opposite side will be printed a number indicating the date of issue, a new series being issued approximately every 30 days (see `180'). If the certificates are used up before the amount spendable is exhausted, additional blanks will be easily procurable.

In the middle of the certificate will be water-marked in large figures the dates of the period during which it will be valid (see `1967-68'). This whole-time period will always include a full balanced load period, which at the present time would be about 14 to 15 months.

At the bottom will be three lines containing various figures and letters--code. Reading from left to right along the top line, the first box will contain the holder's Registration Number, given at birth (the `9038. L. 16794')' part of which will be the Number of the Regional Division in which the holder was born (the 9038).

The second box will contain the Number of the Regional Division in which the certificates has been issued, and in which the holder will have lived and functioned during the period for which it was issued (the `8141').
Your Employment

The third box will contain a series of digits which, coded according to a modified Dewey Decimal System, will show at a glance the exact place of the holder in the Technate's functional structure. Reading from left to right, the first digit (or number) will designate the Functional Sequence in which the holder of the certificate works. This will be followed by a raised decimal point. The next digit will designate the particular Division of the Functional Sequence in which he works (whether for example, in design, Construction, Operations, or Maintenance). The next separated by several points, will be set off by another point and designate the particular Department of the Section in which he works. The last digit (or number) will be set off another point and designate the Unit in which the holder is employed. Still further subdivisions can be made if necessary.

In the figure the series of digits in the third box reads, `8.33...16.3.' This would indicate that the holder is employed in the Iron and Steel Sequence (the `8'), in the Steel Division (the first `3"), in the Operations Section (the next `3'), in the 16 Department of that Section, the Blast Furnace Department (the `16'), and the Blowing Engine Unit of that Blast Furnace Department (the last `3').

The last box of the top line will contain two numbers. The first will indicate the total number of men employed in the Unit designated by the last digit in the preceding box; and the second will be the number of this particular holder in that group. In the figure these numbers read `22. . .11.' This would mean that the holder is number 11 of a total of 22 blowing engine operators in the Blast Furnace Department of this Section, Division, and sequence.

The code so far described, together with the contents of the last box of the second line (the serial number of the certificate, `Z. 97321'), is imprinted on the certificate prior to its issuance to the holder; therefore it is already on the certificate when it is presented for purchase. The remaining figures of the second line, and those of the third line, are carbon coded on the certificate at the time of purchase.
Measuring Consumption

The first number in the first box of the second line will indicate the total units of purchasing power remaining--before the purchase--at the disposal of the holder within the time period for which the certificate was issued. The second number will represent the physical cost of the purchase(s) just made. The total remaining units of purchasing power, obtained by subtracting the second number from the first, will be automatically coded upon the succeeding certificate, ready for the next purchase. In the figure, before the purchase was made, the holder had at his disposal 13090 units, and his purchase amounted to 23 units. The sum remaining to be coded on the succeeding certificate, therefore is 13067.

The second box will contain the day of the year and the time of day at which the purchase is made. In the figure, `205 . . . 21.05' would show the purchase as having been made on the 205th day of year at five minutes after the 21st hour (the time, of course, being figured on a 24 hour basis) .

In the third box will be the serial designation of the recording machine registering the purchase (here `H') and the number of purchase (here `76302').

The fourth box as mentioned above, will contain the serial number of the certificate (here `Z.97321').

In the lowest of the three lines will be boxes providing for four purchases---if they consist of the same merchandise (say shoes or shirts only). The first box of a used certificate will contain series of digits and letters, again coded according to the modified Dewey Decimal System, which will specify exactly what the purchase was. In the figure the `34.46 . . . 11.e7.8' would indicate that the article made by the Leather Sequence---leather after it has left the animal---(the`34'), that the article was a pair of low shoes (the `4') , that they were men's shoes (the`6"), size 11 (the `11"), width E (the `E'), of the last number 7 (the `7"), and of the style number 8 (the `8").

At the same time the holder surrenders the certificate for some service or goods he will place his signature in the space provided,

For the Production Sequences

The carbon codings called for allow the use of electronic devices. By means of these devices it will be possible to register automatically and virtually instantaneously the date, time, amount and type of purchase. as well as the complete record of the individual making the purchase. Total tabulations for the Continent or any part of the Continent will be quickly available at all times. It will be seen how indispensable this system--carbon coding and energy certificate---will be for the maintenance of adequate production schedules and sufficient stocks. By it, many kinds of checks can be quickly made. If necessary an individual's movements may be traced by his purchases across the Continent,

Technological Accounting

We find the energy certificate to be, then a methodology of technological accounting---a methodology which applies the same rigid mensuration that our mass-production of today employs, and has the employ, in its swiftly moving flow lines of intricate equipment and multifarious products.

Inflation, deflation, fiat money, social dividends etc. are---and have to be---dismissed as instruments suitable for the distribution of an abundance of goods and services. They all presuppose a condition of scarcity with its corollaries of value: demand and supply, haphazard and meager flow of goods and services, and a political interference control superimposed upon the functions of a national economy.

Today, wealth is measured according to the possession of the medium of exchange. A person's possession may have originated through channels either ethical or unethical, legal or illegal, socially detrimental or beneficial; but once in possession of the medium of exchange the holder may apply it with little thought to social responsibilities, the only limiting factors being his shrewdness and the volume of tokens at his command. And under modern corporate enterprise the volume at his command will far surpass that in his actual possession. The Technate will not prohibit by legalities these uses or abuses: the energy certificate mechanism automatically excludes all possibilities of their occurrence.

The energy certificate is a methodology of mensuration and in use becomes a dependent, invariable, and integral part of the total operations. By contrast, all media of exchange represent `values,' fictitious or only ostensibly based upon physical objects, distinctly apart from or merely a unit of the totality of operations. The medium of exchange must always be restricted to processes of evaluation, and can never be a process of mensuration,

The energy certificate will not partake of that miraculous feature of a medium of exchange, expansion at a compound rate of interest. And it has nothing to do with that other convenient property of a medium of exchange which allows manipulation in such a manner as to result in a handsome multiplication of the leaven with which the first transaction is effected. We must mention, here, that the original nest egg may have been a borrowed one. Few laymen have bothered themselves to trace deposits and bank loans logically through a series of transactions. A Truly munificent golden cow has been milked for its cream by the financial world.

Values and Marx

The disappearance of `values' in tangible objects with the advancing technology approaching full automaticity is a fundamental factor not anticipated by Marxian theory of `values,' nor by any other social philosophy. The disappearance of `value' automatically invalidates all social philosophies as potential solutions of our social problems. Social philosophies are based on assumed moral values of human effort.

Previously, that item which was scarcest and involved the largest expenditure of human effort was the highest in `value.' Now, in a sea of abundance, one who stubbornly holds fast to a social philosophy and values is much like the poor hen who with bewilderment watches the ducklings she has hatched take to the water. She herself lacks the webbed feet required for swimming, and cannot understand such peculiar goings-on.

As a case in point, let us consider one material without which no life can continue on this globe--air. Air has never yet been subjected to the operations of trading, financing, mortgaging, loaning, borrowing, evaluating, or any other manipulations of the Price System. Why? Because its bountiful supply has never permitted the creation of a demand. With it there never has existed the opportunity of introducing the concepts of `value' and human labor which form the basis of Marxian theory.

The characteristics of air can be duplicated with any other needful thing, if we establish the requirement of abundance.

There might be much said in disposing of Major Douglas' Social Credit theory, Fischer's commodity dollar, Soddy's treatment of monetary structure, and other such schemes. In theory they differ, but in application they all deal in evaluation and therefore must be declared inapplicable in an era of abundance where there are no values. It did not happen that Soddy, an outstanding scientist, came remarkably close to the projection of the unique civilization required in an era of abundance--but ere too late he remembered that he was an English gentleman, inescapably charged with the preservation of all that for which Oxonian tradition stands.

The energy certificate furnishes the molecular mass with a medium whereby it presents its mandate unequivocally and continually to the administrative mechanism, without representation, delegation, referendum, or any other device of previous social administration.

The Energy certificate is the only instrument of distribution which can be used in this Continent's emerging era of abundance.

There can be no era of abundance without a New America.

The energy certificate will be the instrument of distribution in the New America.
* Footnote: This description must not be taken to represent the Energy Certificate as it will appear in a Technate. When the Technate is installed the most modern data processing extant at that time will be used.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-07 12:08am

These are basically the two major emblems of the european and North American Technocratic organizations.

ONe is the Monad and grey. There was this really neat movie on the website of the grey fleet treking across the country.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/ ... icFlag.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/ ... onad_2.jpg[/img]

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-07 01:35am

So one looks like a tech-ized version of the Soviet & Red Chinese flags (with a touch of Imperial Japan), and the other is a rip off of the Yin/Yang from Daoism (but red, the color of socialism)?

Don't judge a book by it's cover, but still... heh

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-07 01:46am

Well, the first one really is just the russian technocratic movement. The bottom is the north american movement. It's the Monad symbol, and the Technocratic colour was grey. It used to go on all the Technate motorcades.

I am sad to say that if you go to some other rip-off websites, you got a bunch of wackos that take the basic theme and design of technocracy and turn it into some netpunk-rockish emo naziism. THere's one site linked to the main Technocracy site, and they all make fun of them in the forum, because it's funny to see techno-nazis pretending to be civil.

The two flags above are basicaly propaganda advertisements. Th ey got tons more. The movement needs more publicity, since its re-growing.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-04-07 11:50am

To sum up, Technocracy is communism in a very real sense, in the same way that the Federation is. The fact that its adherents do not like being called communists (due to the negative connotations - in my opinion justly - aquired by the adherents of the Socialist approach to Communism, is beside the point.

Communism has the reputation of big guys with mustaches running a terror-based state. This is not what communism, as a theology/ideology, is about. Instead, it is about, you guessed it, building a future state where everyone only has to work to maintain an automated economy. In marxism, this would be done by the socialists, who having seized the means of production from the more inventive Bougoisie (we will ignore that Marxism presents this as inevitable, and that Marxism essentailly claims to be able to see the future) will build a communist - IE, 'technocratic' state. The Socialist government would then just whither away as it was no longer needed by the superior-humans of the communist age.

The fact that it invariably ends up with big guys with facial hair running a terror when applied to reality is the major flaw of Marxism. It is also the major flaw of Technocracy, as technocracy presents no innovative means of keeping the men with suspect facial hair out of power. Indeed, the 'technate' is an absoloutely ideal means of placing power without oversight into the hands of a very limited number of people. Thus, the flaw of Socialism remains.

It also has a slightly questionable 'Planned arrival of the fittest' tone, similar in its intent to both the ubermensch plans of the German Fascists and the 'Soviet Man' of the USSR. The fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is ("Evolution is the way we get better" as opposed to "evolution is the process by which life changes") allows the men with suspect facial hair to justify implementing policies which alter the population directy - ranging from sterilisation of the 'unworthy' to 1984esque efforts to control the thought processes of citizens directly - on the excuse of aiming their actions at the 'planned arrival of the fittest.'

Technocracy is Communism rebranded with a slick logo designed to try and appeal to the middle classes (or rather, the scientifically educated) instead of the working class.

You can't refute Fed Communism by saying that it's a Technocracy. Nor could the technocratic leanings of the society in Star Trek be used as a refutation of suppositions of 'evil' or 'corruption' on the part of its leadership.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2005-04-07 12:11pm

I think things like this have been posted here before, and I must say what I'm sure I said then. It may not technically be Marxism, but it's close enough that I fail to see an appreciable difference. To place the power to set prices and the right to be informed of every transaction carried out in society places an immense amount of power into the hands of the state. There is no reason to believe the government of a Technate will be any less inclined to abuse that power than the governments of Communist states have been. Under such a system, not only would the state control the means of production, it would claim an interest in, and therefore control over, all consumption. Such a state would be so repressive, so corrupt and so stagnant as to almost make Communism preferable. The only upside I see to a Technate is that it might collapse faster than a Communist state, and possibly not destroy as many people, though I hope we never have to find out for sure because some country decided to try it out.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-04-07 12:19pm

I quite agree. A technate would be a distopia only so far explored in the most intellectual and depressing of novels. Let us say that the government decides you are to be eliminated.

It refuses to renew your 'energy credits.'

You starve.

Technocracy would put into operation a Continental control of all flow lines of production and distribution a Continental statistical system which would record the desires of every citizen in his choice of consumable goods and available services.

In other words, not only does it control both supply and demand, but it also invades your privacy with the bastard offspring of Big Brother and store cards.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-07 03:33pm

AHH before I ask more questions: for anyone who visted the site at .ca, did you see the funny propaganda windows opening up that say "would you like to know more?" Reminded me of SST's.

From what I read today, the technocratic movement never proposes that the state will disappear, rather that it will always be there in a dual system technical/democratic republic. I dont see where the superhuman no government future relationship is.

I quite agree. A technate would be a distopia only so far explored in the most intellectual and depressing of novels. Let us say that the government decides you are to be eliminated.

It refuses to renew your 'energy credits.'

From what I get, a decision like that would have to go down from the republican/democratic branch of the goverment. They have control of police, military, voter ethical decisions, stuff like that. They also supervise and supposedly check the system.

They say it does have a democratic branch. It's supposed to be a dual system. Apparently, the only decisions that are controled by engineers/scientists are technical, but they are supervised and overseen by a democratically elected republican leadership, which can be recalled if they aren't doing a good job.

The is supposed to be oversight through traditional democratic republican means as well as constitutions. They don't have absolute power, according to what they say. They are balanced off with a traditional political-style government.

Although, I am very skeptical about 3 major portions. I have to read more to see if they answer it. I haven't found it yet.

I don't know if that does anything, but supposedly they cannot abuse their power or they will simply be recalled by the voters.

You can't refute Fed Communism by saying that it's a Technocracy. Nor could the technocratic leanings of the society in Star Trek be used as a refutation of suppositions of 'evil' or 'corruption' on the part of its leadership.

I don't think it gets rid of it, but I think it's more along the lines of the original technocratic movement, just upscaled. I think it's a more appropriate name. I don't think it gets rid of any of the problems in the ST society or the corruption. That stays the same regardless..

It also has a slightly questionable 'Planned arrival of the fittest' tone, similar in its intent to both the ubermensch plans of the German Fascists and the 'Soviet Man' of the USSR. The fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is ("Evolution is the way we get better" as opposed to "evolution is the process by which life changes") allows the men with suspect facial hair to justify implementing policies which alter the population directy - ranging from sterilisation of the 'unworthy' to 1984esque efforts to control the thought processes of citizens directly - on the excuse of aiming their actions at the 'planned arrival of the fittest.'

Where do you get pseudo-evolution fittest from? I must have missed that, but nothing about that is said from what literature I have read. It's not based on Nietsche either. And what efforts do they use to control the thoughts of the populace? The people voluntarily give their preferences for what products they want, then those products are produced to meet the demand.

What I got from several edu university websites is some information critiquing it, but I have never seen it equated to communism. I have to keep looking.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-04-07 03:55pm

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:Where do you get pseudo-evolution fittest from? I must have missed that, but nothing about that is said from what literature I have read. It's not based on Nietsche either. And what efforts do they use to control the thoughts of the populace? The people voluntarily give their preferences for what products they want, then those products are produced to meet the demand.

You posted it. Search for 'planned arrival of the fittest' in the text you posted. The fact that it is not explictly stated as an ubermensch program doesn't mean it doesn't have a capability to do so. It has, unsurprisingly, the same root as the Soviet Man idea. The fact that these pie in the sky systems don't work too well with real people, so, the system being perfect, the government will endevour to change people.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-07 04:09pm

I think it's good to admit that if it sounds "too good to be true, it probably is." It sounds like a fantasy-world system.

You posted it. Search for 'planned arrival of the fittest' in the text you posted. The fact that it is not explictly stated as an ubermensch program doesn't mean it doesn't have a capability to do so. It has, unsurprisingly, the same root as the Soviet Man idea. The fact that these pie in the sky systems don't work too well with real people, so, the system being perfect, the government will endevour to change people.

Thanks. I'll look it it now. I think I know what you mean. They have a link to betterhumans.org (.com?) I forget what one it is. I don't think that's their idea. That's something dreamed up by BH.org. I think Enforcer gave me that link once.

Theres's a discussion against it on the forum. From what I have seen, it's also not part of the programme. It's just some wank stuff posted by BH.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-07 09:07pm

As soon as I read the OP, I thought 'communism by another name'. They don't address any of the inherent problems with communism. Silly.

Spacebeard · Post by **Spacebeard** » 2005-04-07 10:21pm

Frankly, I don't know that anything ever thought that the Federation was necessarily Marxist, only that the Federation had some form of communist economy in which the state controls all production and there is no free enterprise or private ownership of capital. We don't really need to know the name of their system or the ideology used to justify it in order to understand its effects on their military production, trade relations, personal freedom, and so on.

The only reason to speculate about the ideology of the Federation is to understand the beliefs of the average loyal Federation citizen. My reading of the Federation's ideology is that it looks more like this technocracy than Marxism, though. We never hear traditional Marxist talking points about the "workers controlling the means of production" out of mouths of Federation citizens to my knowledge, but we do hear a lot of blather about advanced technology making it possible for everyone to work to better themselves and all of humanity and so forth.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-07 11:20pm

I read from standford that one of the major goals of technocratic society is to place technological and scientific decisions out of the hands of government organizations and politicians and common people and into the hands of the properly educated scientists. I don't think they like how normal people are democraticaly trying to kill science in favour of religion.

Frankly, I don't know that anything ever thought that the Federation was necessarily Marxist, only that the Federation had some form of communist economy in which the state controls all production and there is no free enterprise or private ownership of capital. We don't really need to know the name of their system or the ideology used to justify it in order to understand its effects on their military production, trade relations, personal freedom, and so on.

Ok, ok, hold on here. Please allow me to clear this up once and for all (I wish). Feel free to pass this on to people on other forums as well.

There are many reasons why such corruption as is described here would not be possible; or at the very least highly unlikely. They are in essence the exact same reasons why crime would be virtually non-existent in a Technate, so become familiar with them as well.

1) No profit. There is no reason to do it. Someone in say, the Continental Control Board has nothing to gain by "cutting off your energy credits". He cannot gain monetarily by this. He cannot be "paid" for this action either. He has no political power to protect, and his professional standing is dependant entirely on performance measurements. The only remaining reasons are pathological (such as suddenly hating his ex-wife and wanting her dead), which, aside from being detectable and treatable, leads us to the second reason:

2) Unlike in a Price System, which is a low-production system anyway, a Technate is a high-performance system, where its high-production, efficiency, and load factor are the results of careful, scientific planning. Any "corruption" that is performed will result in a deviation from the "best" result, and thus show up as a lack of performance in that person's sector. This lack would be obvious to all in the Sequence, to say nothing of this superiors, and would be dealt with. Let's take the "cutting off energy credits" example again. First of all, this simply wouldn't be an option in the system (like trying to tell your bank machine to sing the national anthem). This would be the first level of security. Now suppose they found a way around that, such as officially declaring the person dead; that would terminate their energy account all right. However, the person would quickly notice and mention to the Sequence of Distribution that the rumours of their demise have been greatly exaggerated. The change in the system that listed them as dead would be traced back (since these sorts of things require authorization, and hence, identification), and again the person would be dealt with. In any case, it is easily fixed.

Now, for the real big conspiracy buffs, like our friends on the other forum there (in the quotes), suppose some people with "big facial hair" managed to secure several key locations in the Technate infrastructure, and they cut off a person's energy credits. Again, this person mentions it to the Distribution Sequence, who would then tell them that they are being punished, or whatnot. They could then complain publicly, and the people in the other sequences would intervene, calling a special council of the Continental Board, and removing these people from their positions.

Going yet another step further into improbability, suppose now that these people somehow got away with it, perhaps by "silencing" the people involved, or performing some other type of "corruption". Like I said before, any deviation from the "one, best solution" for any technical problem can be detected, and measured, and would show up as a lack of performance in the Technate. Thus, the public would be aware of it, and thereby able to trace down the problem and deal with it. So not only is it monumentally unlikely that this sort of thing could happen in a Technate, but again, you have to ask yourself why all these people have gone to all this trouble, especially when there is nothing to gain by it? Just to "be evil"? There are many far easier ways to do that if that is your real goal, and many other places in the world where it would be far easier to do.

The last and final thing to fear might be some sort of total coup, which would not only be massively difficult to pull off (given the internal structure of the Technate; it would be quite easy to spot early on in the process), but would benefit no one. You simply can't operate a Technate as a military dictatorship, or dictatorship of any kind. The performance of the system would degrade until it was no better than the Price System it has become. It would be the whole "is it better to serve in Heaven, or rule in Hell?" And given how "hellish" it would be for the majority of people (most of whom would likely die, actually), do you really think that they would simply stand by and take that? Including the military? So, I won't say that's it's impossible, just far, far less likely than in any Price System.

Bottom line: there's no point. It is also too hard to do. People perform crime and corruption because of a very simple formula: profit/effort. Today, often either the profit is higher than other tasks of equal effort (robbing a liquor store, for example), or the effort is smaller than legal tasks of equal profit (stealing purses from little old ladies). Corruption occurs in government (and corporations) because since they already have so much "power", it becomes increasingly easier to gain more for less effort; thus corruption is guaranteed in a Price System. If it wasn't, we woundn't need laws, and even these are proving less effectual all the time.

In a Technate, the 'profit' from crime and corruption is very small, especially when compared to how good life already is (remember that most crime is committed by poor people). Also, the effort is staggeringly huge in most cases. This makes the equation-balance inverse to that of a Price System, and would be the equivalent of you walking to another continent just to get a drink of water.

It all comes down to two things: 1) there is no political "power" to abuse in the Technate, and 2) abundance radically changes the overall behaviour of human beings, as Haraldur points out with the article he linked to.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-08 12:01am

Flatly put, it would be fucking nice, if, for once, those arguing the Federation wasn't a communist state had read Marx's manifesto and done the checklist approach for the TNG era.

This Technocracy crap is, as has been better pointed out, Communism Mk.8 or something. Just another rehash with flashier names; see Venus project or The Singularity. None work, all base themselves on the fucking ridiculous concept that once we reach some point, value disappears. It sells this by pretending money is just paper and just a fad.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-08 12:04am

Flatly put, it would be fucking nice, if, for once, those arguing the Federation wasn't a communist state had read Marx's manifesto and done the checklist approach for the TNG era.

This Technocracy crap is, as has been better pointed out, Communism Mk.8 or something. Just another rehash with flashier names; see Venus project or The Singularity. None work, all base themselves on the fucking ridiculous concept that once we reach some point, value disappears. It sells this by pretending money is just paper and just a fad.

Not related to the Federation, which I think is a technocratic Communism:

Technocrats are defined by both as engineers and scientists turned politicians or advisors to politicians in technical affairs.

According to the Journal of Political Ideologies, Communism isn't Technocracy. Meh. That's only one source, though. As well, according to Journal of International and Area studies, it's also not communism, it's an idea that's been slowly adopted, and contuing so, by China, mexico and the USA and Singapore during the last 15 years to replace communism (in respetive nations). The ideas evolving are largely the same, yet the poltical experts don't say it's the same as communism. They continually contrast the two in many areas. It's hardly Communism Mark 8 to many political experts.

As well, they state: And it is technocracy, not liberalism or conservatism, that has been the dominant ideology of US politics for most of this century. That's why the metaphor of the bridge has withered into a cliche. Our political discussions simply assume that every new development – cultural, technological, or economic – requires some sort of program to make it turn out "right." Harvard historian John M. Jordan calls it "the peculiar American paradox of kinetic change made stable." It is the ideology of the best way – the one best way.

Most political arguments still center on competing technocratic schemes

It's also described that after the fall of Communism in E. Europe, there was an increase in European/ Hungarian technocractic thought to replace it. Why would they treat the same thing different?

Technocrats are also looked on as being "less nationalististic"

How can it be both? I never got that in my poly sci. They seem to make a big socio-economic difference between Technocracy and Communism, yet other professionals seem to say they are somewhat close, but not entirely.

According to W. H. G. Armytage, “‘Technocracy’…signifies a social order organized on principles established by technical experts."

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-04-08 02:55am

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:Technocrats are also looked on as being "less nationalististic"

Confusion of communism with generic dictatorship by facial hair. Communism promises the complete abolition of nationalism, borders, and the state.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-08 07:22am

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:
Technocrats are also looked on as being "less nationalististic"

Confusion of communism with generic dictatorship by facial hair. Communism promises the complete abolition of nationalism, borders, and the state.

So if it's a quasi-communistic form, and the Federation exibits a lot of the general ideas, and Gene Roddenberry used some of those ideas, it's partly Technocratic then?

No one said the Federation wasn't communist. I was looking for special characteristics that made them special. What type of communism/flavour do you think they are? I just remember seeing them called communism, but it was never specific. There are several varieties, according to journals.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-08 02:03pm

They're Marxist communism. I can name off the Marx Checklist from the Manifesto. We will undoutably draw those who will dicker about one episode exceptions to the rule.

1. Abolition of property rights a la investment, 'exploitive capital'. The Neutral Zone proves this without a shadow of a doubt; they can't understand the concept of investment. Their economy regressing to precious metal barter(Latium) shows this further.

2. State Seizure Of Transport. Completely done. All ships are Starfleet; the closest we ever come is, IIRC, those freighters in DS9, but we never see proof they own them as opposed to being employed by Federation Logistics. With the skies of Earth empty, never a single civilian ship fleeing the scene when a world is attacked, and ambassadors transported by modified probe, it's unquestionable.

3. State seizure of communications. Completely acheived by DS9. Quark can't run ads without breaking into the comm system, transmissions begin and end with the Federation symbol, and a military coup has a perfect news blackout. Try that with the internet, personal radio transmittors, etc.

4. Elimination of religion and traditional families. Well, Trek is mysteriously devoid of most organized religions. Throw in that the pleasure planet Risa is considered a decent hangout for Wesley of all people, and I think we can say they're hammering at this as hard as they can.

5. State seizure of industry. Apparently fully present. There's no logos for companies, no variation in products, no advertisements, and in general, no signs of industry in private hands. And the next person to bring up the red herring of Dax's mining in New Sydney gets shot.

6. Citizens Forced to work. Dunno how well implemented it is, but have we ever seen a guy who isn't employed in some way?

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-08 03:15pm

Does anyone know the link to that essay? My link isn't working anymore. I wanted to quote it for someone? Thanks, if you can.

I always had one question about Communism. Is it like other political doctrines? Do you have to follow all of the following to be considered such, or is it hit and miss?

It reminds me of the Liberal/Conservative thread goin on at Campus. What does it mean to be part of something? It would seem that the Feds are fully communist, more or less. Would they no longer be if they didn't have say, half the points?

Well, looking back at the page, Technocracy seems to exhibit, not in doctrine, but conclusion, at least 1/2 of those things, but for different reasons. That's cool.

If that's true, then why don't most politologists consider it also communist? That question relates to the previous one. How much of a philosophy do you have to follow to be one with that group?

Spacebeard · Post by **Spacebeard** » 2005-04-08 05:12pm

SirNitram wrote:They're Marxist communism. I can name off the Marx Checklist from the Manifesto. We will undoutably draw those who will dicker about one episode exceptions to the rule.

When I said that they probably weren't Marxist, I wasn't referring to the government policies, which are clearly communist. but to the ideology used to justify them. Since we never hear traditional Marxist propaganda about the working classes or the means of production out of the mouths of Federation citizens, it's quite possible that they use a different ideology to justify those policies. Though, as I said earlier, we don't really need to know which excuses they use to justify their policies when we already know about their system and can predict its effects on economic output, trade, and personal liberties.

As for the "technocracy", I think that Boyish-Tigerlilly is confusing a bunch of clowns who have declared themselves "The Technocratic Movement" with the word "technocracy", which refers only to a system in which leaders are chosen for their managerial or technical skill.

For example, in the quote he cited below:

As well, they state: And it is technocracy, not liberalism or conservatism, that has been the dominant ideology of US politics for most of this century. That's why the metaphor of the bridge has withered into a cliche. Our political discussions simply assume that every new development – cultural, technological, or economic – requires some sort of program to make it turn out "right." Harvard historian John M. Jordan calls it "the peculiar American paradox of kinetic change made stable." It is the ideology of the best way – the one best way.

What he's saying is that political debates in the United States are often framed in what he categorizes as technocratic terms: in other words, the debate is other which bureaucratic program is most efficient and will achieve the best outcome, not over which adhere better to a set of guiding moral principles.

This has shit-all to do with "The Technocratic Movement" and their "technate", just like the "People's Democratic Republic of Korea" has shit-all to do with democracy.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-04-08 06:51pm

Like I said earlier: Technocracy seems like Communism with Robots instead of labour, whereas the Federation uses a lot of Transporters and replicators to achieve abundance. They seem basically the same to me with minor differences.

What he's saying is that political debates in the United States are often framed in what he categorizes as technocratic terms: in other words, the debate is other which bureaucratic program is most efficient and will achieve the best outcome, not over which adhere better to a set of guiding moral principles.

This has shit-all to do with "The Technocratic Movement" and their "technate", just like the "People's Democratic Republic of Korea" has shit-all to do with democracy.

What's odd is that they this comment to HOward Scott.

Morilore · Post by **Morilore** » 2005-04-10 10:43pm

This is going to be fun....

The Price System grew out of the days of scarcity, when trading his crude materials or stealing them, was the only way in which man could acquire the articles which he required. Through complex ramifications the trading system has grown until it is now the overwhelming structure of finance, business commerce, and politics, in short, the Price System in toto--a gigantic structure, but still just a method of exchanging goods, springing from the ancient custom and necessity of barter.

Scarcity is the fundamental unpleasant aspect of human existence; that we can't get everything we want. Scarcity cannot "disappear" unless we effectively die.

No intention or pretense is made of accurate measurement or control; no physical accounting is involved; no accurate predictions can be made; and no stabilization can be assured. The Price System is simply a method of erratic exchange. In scarcity it sufficed well enough as an exchange method; in abundance it cannot even do that.

Why is control and accounting necessary or desirable? And predictions can be made, and long-term stabilization can be reasonably predicted. Erratic exchange? What does that mean? And I already pointed out that scarcity is universal.

The dislocation of the commodity exchange method of distributing goods and services became apparent after World War 1. The disrupted conditions at that time led to a scientific investigation which in turn proved that the only common denominator of all goods and services was energy.

The scientists who pointed this out simply proposed to measure the total amount of energy used by the North American Continent in a given period; measure the energy cost of physical production and services; and use these measurements as the basis for regulation of all Continental production and distribution.

The first paragraph is interesting. OK, so energy is a root to all goods and services. Makes sense.
The second paragraph suggests state seizure and control of all production and distribution. Nuff said. Sorry, but value is subjective.

Technocracy Is The Tool

Technocracy's basic postulate is, `The phenomena involved in the functional operation of a social mechanism are metrical.' In other words, anything that materially affects us or changes our environment is measurable. The scientists and technologists know this and have applied it directly to the task of equipping North America with the most intricate and efficient productive mechanism ever to exist on earth. When they are given their chance they will see that the abundant goods and services produced are adequately distributed to everyone on the Continent. Technocracy is the tool by which North Americans may gain abundance and security.

Technocracy would put into operation a Continental control of all flow lines of production and distribution a Continental statistical system which would record the desires of every citizen in his choice of consumable goods and available services. This system would do the following things in a physical area where abundance is certain:

So you can measure shit, therefore state control of industry will work any better than it has in the past 100 years? And recording the desires of citizens?
Welcome to Room 101, Mr. Technocrat.

1. Register on a continuous 24-hour-per day basis the total net conversion of energy, which would determine (a) the availability of energy for Continental plant construction and maintenance, (b) the amount of physical wealth available in the form of consumable goods and services for consumption by the total population during the balance-load period.
2. By means of the registration of energy converted and consumed, make possible a balanced load.
3. Provide a continuous inventory of all production and consumption.
4. Provide a specific registration of the type, kind, etc., of all goods and services, where produced, and where used.
5. Provide a specific registration of the consumption of each individual, plus a record and description of the individual.
6. Allow the citizen the widest latitude of choice in consuming his individual share of Continental physical wealth.
7. Distribute goods and services abundantly to every member of the population.

1. Continously observe all machinations of industry completely throughout society. Arbitrate subjective value of wealth.
2. Make insanely difficult calculations using arbitrary values.
3. Omniscient government surveillance.
4. See above.
5. See above.
6. Nice try. Won't work, since you assigned what value his subjective choices have.
7. Commiewank.

Why Not Money?

On the basis of these requirements, it is interesting to consider money as a possible medium of distribution. But before doing this, let us bear in mind what the properties of money are. In the first place, money relationships are all based upon 'value,' which in turn is a function of scarcity. Hence money is not a 'measure' of anything. Secondly, money is a debt claim against society and is valid in the hands of any bearer. In other words, it is negotiable; it can be traded, stolen, given or gambled away. Thirdly, money can be saved. Fourthly, money circulates, and is not destroyed or canceled out upon being spent. On each of these counts money fails to meet our requirements as our medium of distribution.

Again, scarcity is universal, and value is subjective. And why is the rest of that bad? Sometimes people want money that other people have but don't want. Why shouldn't they be allowed to trade?

Money Is Inadequate

Suppose, for instance, that we attempted to distribute by means of money the goods and services produced. Suppose that it were decided that 200 billion dollars' worth of goods and services were to be produced in a given year, and suppose further that 200 billion dollars were distributed to the population during that time with which to purchase these goods and services. Immediately the foregoing properties of money would create trouble. Due to the fact that money is not a physical measure of goods and services, there is no assurance that prices would not change during the year, and that 200 billion dollars issued for use in a given year would be used in that year. If it were not used this would immediately begin to curtail production and start oscillations. Due to the fact that money is negotiable, and that certain human beings, by hook or crook, have a facility for getting it away from other human beings, this would defeat the requirement that distribution must reach all human beings. A further consequence of the negotiability of money is that it can be used very effectively for purposes of bribery. Hence the most successful accumulators of money would be able eventually not only to disrupt the flow line, but also to buy a controlling interest in the social mechanism itself, which brings us right back to where we started from.

Due to the fact that money is a species of debt, and hence cumulative, the amount would have to be continuously increased, which, in conjunction with its property of being negotiable, would lead inevitably to concentration of control in a few hands, and to general disruption of the distribution system which was supposed to be maintained.

Thus, money in any form whatsoever is completely inadequate as a medium of distribution in an economy of abundance with a Price System control. Any social system employing commodity evaluation (commodity valuations are the basis of all money) is a Price System. Hence it is not possible to maintain an economy of abundance by means of a Price System.

Thank you for demonstrating that communism doesn't work. But sorry, you can't get people to not evaluate commodities.

The Scientific Answer

Technocracy's Energy Certificate is the only instrument of distribution which can be used in this Continent's emerging era of abundance--the progress of which is being speeded up by automation. This Energy Certificate provides the accounting means whereby each individual North American can express his individual preference as to what he wants of the products North America is capable of producing. That is its function--to record the demand for goods and services and, thereby, to determine the amount to be produced. By applying one specific technological measuring device, production and consumption can be balanced and the first specification for social harmony is immediately achievable.

Sounds exactly like money to me.

Vote With Meaning

The only real vote is purchasing power. What we buy we vote for. With an abundance of purchasing power we can vote as often as we like, every day of the year, and always win our vote.

The Energy Certificate eliminates both the basis and the need of all social work and charity. It would reduce crime to but a small fraction of what exists today.

If you don't like the war, the poverty, the misery, the waste, the crime, the disease, and the corruption which the Price System spawns, why do you stick with it?

Wank wank wank.

PART 1
The Application of Science To The Means Whereby We Live

*snip wanking

Energy, The Cause

The increase of energy-consuming devices in a high-energy civilization tends to nullify all concepts of `value' inherent in those previous ages. The rate of extraneous energy consumption on this Continental area has reached an order of magnitude which results in a plethora of goods and services beyond the manageable limits of our present control technique.

When power is used in vast quantities the resultant is an abundance of goods and services. Never in history has man faced the technical problem of distributing an achieved abundance. His efforts in the past have been directed toward philosophical speculation as to how an abundance might be achieved. Now, abundance has been thrust upon him by technology. One technical problem has been solved, but man, not realizing that he is faced with another technical problem, has turned to philosophic speculation to solve the distribution conundrum.

The availability and use of vast quantities of power opens up many vistas of possible human achievement hitherto seen only as shifting mirages by utopian dreamers of history. It realizes the physical fact of abundance. It contains within itself the technique whereby that abundance can be distributed. It provides, not just another variation of the method of haphazard exchange now in operation throughout the world, but a technique of mensuration, a physical accounting system on a Continental order of magnitude. This Continental accounting system in operation would be the arrival of certainty in all human physical requirements.

Apparently our society has produced everything everyone could possibly want ever.
Wank wank wank.

Social Design Now Possible

Science and technology have developed the method of research and analysis. Man is now an adept with honor-roll of achievement in the discovery and classification of physical knowledge by which he has constructed energy consuming devices that have created a new world. Today, the data are available. More research is being conducted than ever before. No area on earth excels the Continent of North America in this respect. In the matter of design too, science and technology have made strides, but only in the minutiae of science and technology.

Man has designed and construc ted enormous dams, power plants, canals, but he has never designed and constructed a continental hydrology. Man has designed streamlined trains, and magnificent railroad terminals, but never an integrated, continental system of low cost rail transportation. Man has designed automobiles and highways, but never a superhighway system with control of traffic origination and load factor. Man has designed mammoth strip steel mills, but not an automatic steel sequence from iron ore to finished product. Man has built haphazard Price System economies and political empires, but never has he designed a self-contained technologically controlled social mechanism.

In other words, the design of the past has been but the design of the minutiae, the working up from the part to the whole; and not the design of the whole. leading down into the microcosmic parts of the entity. When a continental social mechanism is designed as an operational totality, then and then only, will the results of the whole exceed the sum of its parts. When and only when, all the factors relevant to the operation of a social mechanism are measurable, is a planned social structure possible. With unmeasurable factors, effective social planning is impossible. Today, the predominant unmeasurable factor is `price' which explains why neither the United States or Russia, nor any other area on earth has been able to effect a planned economy.

But of course science and technology have never had the opportunity, until four decades ago, to design in this manner. Science and technology are comparatively new. They have been engaged in building with the tools of the knowledge at hand. They have never looked upon the social order, unless it be in a Jekyll and Hyde escape from their laboratory. Therefore, the discovery of the importance of the energy factor in social measurement was made by a scientist who never left his laboratory--a scientist whose laboratory was a Continent.

So you are saying that it is possible to literally redesign civilization?

Facts and Social Progression

Physical development has made the next step mandatory; and Technocracy, grown from the work of interpreters of science previously mentioned, now states the following unqualified facts: that we live on the North American Continent; that this Continent has abundant resources; that its population is the most nearly homogeneous of any like area on the earth; that we have designed, built and are operating the largest and most complex array of technological equipment in existence; that we have more men and women technically trained than any other area on earth; that we have the highest average consumption of extraneous energy per capita of any continent.

Technocracy also states: that there need be no restriction of our physical standard of living due to inadequate resources; that we can only continue toward maximum physical consumption by the increased substitution of kilowatt-hours for man hours, and by a continuous improvement of our equipment; that we will be forced to greater and greater integration of our physical equipment; that we will be forced to adopt a technological administration of all sequences of social operations.

This then is our social progression whether we like it or not. If we do not accept these physical conditions, and refuse to adopt a method of control capable of administering these processes, there is only the other alternative--complete abandonment of our technological developments, with the consequent chaos. It is not likely that we will permit that catastrophe. The American people are going to demand that we move forward; and they, the American people, are going to conscript their leaders, the technologist, scientists, and engineers, to lead them to a New America.

The following sections are not yet available for this online version:

TECHNOCRACY OR BUST!!!1!!11oneshiftone!

I might do the rest of it later, but it seems mostly to describe the minutia of this massive command economy.