Firepower from Die is cast(please bear with me)

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2005-02-12 09:26am

Ok I know this has been discussed many times but the discussion always seems to be focused on wether the Cardassian-Romulan fleet really destroyed the 30% of crust or merley created the shockwaves we see from orbit.
I for one tend to agree with the visual evidence rather than spoken dialoge. This also seems to be the general consensus in this forum. However I never saw any attemt to calculate the energy required to produce the effects seen in the episode. We see sveral atmospheric shockwaves that are roughly 1/10 of planets diameter in size.

Now we have to determine the planets size. Major Kira was once on the planet and it would seem that planets gravity is equal to that of Earth. This would mean that the planet would have to be at least 10000km in diameter otherwise it's density would be grater than iron.
We can conclude that the shockwaves are at least on the order of 1000km in diameter.
The picture of the shockwaves can be found here: ++http://www.ditl.org/gpaf/GFltWeapon2.jpg
According to Stardestroyer.net nuclear blast calculator it would take 375GT to create a shockwave of 1000km in diameter.
So the average energy output of the ships in the fleet would be about 1500 million TW.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-02-12 09:35am

Your ignoring the fact that ST weapons don't do damge via Direct energy transfer but rather by chain reaction. Thus the energy fired is much lower.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-02-12 10:03am

Aren't they the shockwaves that travel at a ludicrously high speed? Hmmmmm.

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2005-02-12 10:18am

Your ignoring the fact that ST weapons don't do damge via Direct energy transfer but rather by chain reaction. Thus the energy fired is much lower.

But the Romulan ships also fired several torpedoes which have never been seen to produce the chain reaction. Their firepower seems to be on the same level as the beams. Furthermore I don't recall ever seeing a chain reaction effect caused by a ship-mounted weapon.

Aren't they the shockwaves that travel at a ludicrously high speed? Hmmmmm.

Well the speed didn't exceed that of light so there is no reason to assume some sort of subspace technobabble shit effect.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-12 10:46am

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Your ignoring the fact that ST weapons don't do damge via Direct energy transfer but rather by chain reaction. Thus the energy fired is much lower.
But the Romulan ships also fired several torpedoes which have never been seen to produce the chain reaction. Their firepower seems to be on the same level as the beams. Furthermore I don't recall ever seeing a chain reaction effect caused by a ship-mounted weapon.

TOS area effect stun, partial phazorisation of starships in DS9 come to mind.
Since ship-mounted weapons are called the same and have identical if larger-scale effects as the portable ones there's no reason they work on different principles without evidence to the contrary. Which doesn't exist.

Aren't they the shockwaves that travel at a ludicrously high speed? Hmmmmm.
Well the speed didn't exceed that of light so there is no reason to assume some sort of subspace technobabble shit effect.

All they have to exceed it the speed at which shockwaves from high-yield in-atmosphere explosion move. Which they do. Ergo, not a DET event.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2005-02-12 11:36am

Radius calculations for shockwaves from the Nuclear Weapons FAQ (which I assume Mike uses for his calculator) are based on the radius at which the shockwave exerts a specific amount of overpressure. There is absolutely no way of determining the overpressure exerted by the shockwaves seen in "The Die is Cast" at any given radius from the point of impact, so there is no way of calculating the energy release from them.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-02-12 11:42am

Kane Starkiller wrote:Well the speed didn't exceed that of light so there is no reason to assume some sort of subspace technobabble shit effect.

Shockwaves move through a given medium based on the density of the medium, not the magnitude of the initial force. A big boom will make a shockwave with huge amplitude, but it won't make to go much faster. It's why you can feel the ground shake from an explosion noticably before you hear it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-12 01:24pm

Because shockwaves in the ground move faster then ones in the atmosphere.

Lone_Prodigy · Post by **Lone_Prodigy** » 2005-02-12 01:42pm

Another problem:
Even if they did have such powerful weaponry, why wasn't there ejecta en masse?

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2005-02-12 05:47pm

Fuck those technobabble weapons. If there ever is another Star Trek series they better design some weapons that make fucking sense.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-12 06:47pm

Alyeska wrote:Because shockwaves in the ground move faster then ones in the atmosphere.

I'm reasonably certain that was Gil's point.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-12 07:16pm

Crazedwraith wrote:Your ignoring the fact that ST weapons don't do damge via Direct energy transfer but rather by chain reaction. Thus the energy fired is much lower.

Actually, I'm fairly sure the torpedos are explosive (DET) weapons.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-02-12 07:41pm

Wow, its like we can refute TDiC on autopilot now. Thats got to mean... something

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-12 08:29pm

Junghalli wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Your ignoring the fact that ST weapons don't do damge via Direct energy transfer but rather by chain reaction. Thus the energy fired is much lower.
Actually, I'm fairly sure the torpedos are explosive (DET) weapons.

Photorps are. Romulan plasma torps are still up for grabs, I think.
Not that DET photorps could account for TDIC visuals in any way shape or form.

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2005-02-12 09:36pm

Batman wrote:
Junghalli wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Your ignoring the fact that ST weapons don't do damge via Direct energy transfer but rather by chain reaction. Thus the energy fired is much lower.
Actually, I'm fairly sure the torpedos are explosive (DET) weapons.
Photorps are. Romulan plasma torps are still up for grabs, I think.
Not that DET photorps could account for TDIC visuals in any way shape or form.

Romulans use both Phototorps and Plasma Torps. We really have no idea which kind they are using at any given time, unless it's explicitly mentioned however.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-12 09:43pm

Furthermore I don't recall ever seeing a chain reaction effect caused by a ship-mounted weapon.

I can think of several simple examples. First one that comes to mind is a Miranda in the Dominion war being hit by a Cardassian phaser, and then the hull being "eaten" away as the saucer section flies towards the screen. You clearly see the hull being eaten away for seconds after the phaser beam strikes. NDF.

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-12 09:51pm

brianeyci wrote:
Furthermore I don't recall ever seeing a chain reaction effect caused by a ship-mounted weapon.
I can think of several simple examples. First one that comes to mind is a Miranda in the Dominion war being hit by a Cardassian phaser, and then the hull being "eaten" away as the saucer section flies towards the screen. You clearly see the hull being eaten away for seconds after the phaser beam strikes. NDF.
Brian

And there you have it, provided by a poster I couldn't agree on the colour of the sky with. No shipboard weapon NDF effects my
Ahem.
posterior.

Kruk · Post by **Kruk** » 2005-02-13 07:02am

++http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthrea ... light=cast

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-02-13 09:45pm

What kind of drooling moron doesn't understand that shockwaves can't move that fast in atmosphere without going white-hot and glowing like the Sun because of this little thing called "air friction"? Ever heard of it?