Speed of Starship Phaser Fire.

[brianeyci]

Okay. A quick question. Pretend the following is a phaser shot.

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Now, how come we never see something like this,

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Or huge broken beams, when phasers sweep from left to right? Is there a way to calculate the minimum speed phaser particles must travel at? Is the speed of phaser shot near c? If it isn't near c, how come we've never seen broken phaser beams (other than PPC)?

Brian

[Stark]

Off the top of my head I don't recall any phaser sweeping ever. Even in NEM the E-E just spammed straight-line shots in all directions.

Even if it was being swept, it wouldn't appear 'broken', merely curved. From certain perspectives it wouldn't even be visibly curved. Phasers sure as fuck don't move at c, although shipboard weapons seem to be getting 'faster' as the movies go on.

[Alyeska]

Phasers are capable of sweeping shots. In "Sacrafice Angels" a Galaxy class fires two phasers from the same array and continues to hit the same spot on a Galor as the Galaxy flies past. That is a sweeping motion.

The speed of a phaser shot seems to only have one similarity. They always seem to take ~1 second to propogate, no matter the distance. When a Nebula class fired BVR, it took ~1 second, when the Enterprise fired on the Borg, one second.

[Enola Straight]

And when a red shirt fires a hand phaser across the room...

...propagation of one second.

Has there ever been an instance where a Fed ship fired phasers while at warp?
I would assume that, if phaser energy is limited by the speed of light (a phaser bolt has no sustainer engine like a photorp does, remember), a ball of phaser energy would build up at the leading edge of the warp field.

HEY! that gives an interesting weapons tech possibility: go at warp, fire continuously ahead of you, stoke the shit outta that phaser fireball, and let'er loose at the target!

[Stark]

Not that I'm looking for an argument, but in later movies (particularly NEM) the delay seemed to be much shorter: it could just be editing, I guess.

[Sarevok]

Has there ever been an instance where a Fed ship fired phasers while at warp?

If I recall correctly in the VOY epiosde "Human Error" a sentinent missile shot down several photon torpedoes while at warp. The beam appeared to be like phasers visualy but may be a different weapon altogather.

[Uraniun235]

Another sweeping shot is part of the big salvo the Ent-D lets loose in TNG Arsenal of Freedom.

[brianeyci]

DATA
The warship is three hundred
thousand kilometers from the
Phoenix. It is opening fire.
The Phoenix has taken a direct
hit.

Now unless Data pauses in the middle for like five seconds, in this example phasers move at near c. Cardassian phasers at that. Try saying "it is opening fire", takes about maybe 3 seconds, so maybe phasers move at around 1/3 c in this case.

<edit> 1/3 c is probably low-end as well, since Data might know far sooner as soon as the Cardies open fire if the Phoenix is hit, just that he talks slow </edit>

Brian

[Lord Poe]

http://filmgate.h4h.com/louis/wound.html

Remember that the ships were closing fast toward one another.

[The Silence and I]

Cool, nice break down.

So it wasn't 300,000 km, but we are talking a difference of ~100,000 km, so the effect on speed of shots is relatively little. A large fraction of lightspeed is still suggested here.

Just want to point that out.

[brianeyci]

http://filmgate.h4h.com/louis/wound.html

Remember that the ships were closing fast toward one another.

Very good Poe, accurate as always, thanks.

However, just FYI, I have never claimed or supported 300k km Federation weapons range in Trek because the usual justification is jamming makes the range down to 1 km. We have good reason to believe in this case that Phoenix's ECM was disabled since the Cardies had their prefix code, and the Cardy ship probably had less sophisticated sensors than the Nebula class since the Nebula is a sensor-suite jack-of-all-trades vessel so Cardy ECM was probably equally ineffective in jamming the Nebula's sensors. And, still fraction of light-second phaser speed even though the range is lowered by about 100k (probably less, have you tried scaling the pixels?).

Brian

[Lord Poe]

Cool, nice break down.

So it wasn't 300,000 km, but we are talking a difference of ~100,000 km, so the effect on speed of shots is relatively little. A large fraction of lightspeed is still suggested here.

Just want to point that out.

Yes, but also be aware the Phoenix was firing photon torpedoes, and not phasers. As for the Cardies, I'm unsure.

[brianeyci]

One more thing Poe. How do you reconcile the visuals with this,

DATA: The Phoenix is beginning evasive maneuvers. It has positioned itself outside the weapons range of the opposing ship. The Phoenix has powered up both phasers and photon torpedoes. The Phoenix is firing photon torpedoes

Now, you say the maximum range of the Cardassian ship is greater than the maximum range of the Nebula. Except, from what Data says, this is not the case. What is correct, the dialogue or the visuals? Or both?

We know that there are three rings. Yet Data says that when the Nebula moves to the very edge of the second Cardassian ring, that it is "outside the weapons range of the Cardassian ship". What the hell does this mean? Data is a retard? The ship is clearly sitting inside the red area.

Perhaps the second and third Cardassian rings represent what a standard Cardassian ship's weapon ranges are. And that this Cardassian ship was more poorly armed than normal, meaning the second and third ring didn't apply specifically to this Cardassian ship.

Maybe the second and third rings are sensor rings for the Cardassian ship, and the second and third ring are weapons rings for the Phoenix.

Have you considered that this is a two-dimensional overlay of a three-dimensional battle? Maybe the Nebula is attacking from above, and the eagle's eye view distorts it so it looks like the Federation's weapon range is shorter than the Cardy weapons range. In short, perhaps Federation tactical overlay sucks balls.

Data says the Nebula has greater range than the Cardassian ship by virtue of the Phoenix being able to stay out of the Cardassian ship's weapon range and fire at the Cardassian ship with its own weapons. Therefore, any theory should not only rely on the visuals, but incorporate the dialogue as well, unless there's some reason to believe Data is being a retard in this case.

Brian

[The Silence and I]

Cool, nice break down.

So it wasn't 300,000 km, but we are talking a difference of ~100,000 km, so the effect on speed of shots is relatively little. A large fraction of lightspeed is still suggested here.

Just want to point that out.

Yes, but also be aware the Phoenix was firing photon torpedoes, and not phasers. As for the Cardies, I'm unsure.

Good point that one. IIRC Cardies have no (or do not use anyway) an equivalent to torpedoes, suggesting they used their spin on phasers to hit the Phoenix. I would assume Federation phasers have similar propagation.

As for what the three rings each mean... I'm not sure. The Cardassian ship has AFAIK ONE weapon system, while the Phoenix has two. Neither have three, although it is possible the outer rings represent a maximum range while inner rings represent degrees of optimal ranges. But even that has annoying inconsistencies such as the Phoenix firing from within the Cardassian ring yet being outside weapons range...

We know that there are three rings. Yet Data says that when the Nebula moves to the very edge of the second Cardassian ring, that it is "outside the weapons range of the Cardassian ship". What the hell does this mean? Data is a retard? The ship is clearly sitting inside the red area.

I would shy away from the Data is a retard in this example because the display is there for all to see. If the display meant only what we have so far supposed then someone would have said: "Err, Data? The Phoenix is still inside the warship's rings.... ya know? Like inside its weapon range?" Or words to that effect. Also, the Phoenix then wins the battle without anymore return fire, though the speed with which it won certainly helped I would think.

[BenRG]

Here is how I understood the battle graphic from 'The Wounded'. Pray pardon if someone else has already mentioned this - I've skimmed the topic and not seen it mentioned.

Outer ring: maximum weapons range
Middle ring: I presume this is the edge of optimum range, where combination of propegation rate, targeting sensor accuracy and fire control system quality maximises the chance of a hit in any given engagement profile.
Inner Ring 'Knife fighting' range, where the traverse and elevation rate of the beam weapons and the turn rate of missile weapons make it difficult to hit at all while manouvring.

I note that DS9, a Cardie-built space station had at least six torpedo launchers, so I we know that the Cardassians have the technology, but I've never seen a Cardie warship use them, so it is still an open question.

Basically, what happens is that the two ships advance to within maximum sensor range. Realising that the Pheonix can't match the Cardie (probably a Galor-class) for range, Maxwell decides to push his luck. The Cardie gets off a long-range shot that hits the Pheonix. Maxwell goes evasive (still well clear of optimum range) and manages to dodge the follow-up.

The Pheonix then charges at attack speed, risking getting inside the Cardies' optimum attack range and starts firing her torpedoes. Some of the spread hits home.

I don't remember for sure, but I seem to recall that Maxwell continues his death-or-glory charge, firing all the way (the way that Riker failed to in 'Generations') and pounds the Cardassian ship into scrap before it can get another barrage off (possibly the Cardies were still trying to clean up the mess after the torpedo hits).

[Patrick Ogaard]

Don't the Cardassian warships from the end of the TNG episode "Ensign Ro" fire what appear to be torpedoes when destroying the remote-controlled Bajoran ship? Or is my memory starting to slip?

[brianeyci]

I would shy away from the Data is a retard in this example because the display is there for all to see. If the display meant only what we have so far supposed then someone would have said: "Err, Data? The Phoenix is still inside the warship's rings.... ya know? Like inside its weapon range?" Or words to that effect. Also, the Phoenix then wins the battle without anymore return fire, though the speed with which it won certainly helped I would think.

Then here is the best explaination. The Cardy ship fires from one light second distant. Then Data says the Nebula moves outside the range of the Cardassian ship's weapons, although the Nebula is clearly inside the red area. But, the Nebula is just outside of the second ring. That means probably that other Cardassian ships can fire at greater range than one light second, and the rings represent different weapons systems. Only that this Cardassian ship isn't as well armed as others.

So the second ring of the Cardassian ship is one light second, not the third ring which refers to another Cardassian weapons system not deployed on this specific Cardassian variant.

That's the only other explaination without going "Everybody on the bridge is a retard."

Brian

[Batman]

Then here is the best explaination. The Cardy ship fires from one light second distant. Then Data says the Nebula moves outside the range of the Cardassian ship's weapons, although the Nebula is clearly inside the red area. But, the Nebula is just outside of the second ring. That means probably that other Cardassian ships can fire at greater range than one light second, and the rings represent different weapons systems. Only that this Cardassian ship isn't as well armed as others.
So the second ring of the Cardassian ship is one light second, not the third ring which refers to another Cardassian weapons system not deployed on this specific Cardassian variant.
That's the only other explaination without going "Everybody on the bridge is a retard."

I can think of another one, actually: The Feds overestimate Cardie effective weapons range. OR, if that display is based on info the Cardassians PROVIDED to the Feds it's deliberate misinformation. Then there's your mentioned 2D display of 3D battle (although Trek battles seem to large ly be 2.5D-they never use the relative vertical all that much).
IT might be simplified that doesn't include weapon coverages (Phoenix may have been within theoretical max range bout outside the firing arc of that weapon system). Maybe the Phoenix reactivated her ECM (Khan clearly mentions an override in TWOK, that nincompoop at tactical simply couldn't find it).
And let's face it-at least for the lead characters everybody on the bridge is a retard

[brianeyci]

All of your explainations introduce extra variables.

I can think of another one, actually: The Feds overestimate Cardie effective weapons range.

No proof of this.

OR, if that display is based on info the Cardassians PROVIDED to the Feds it's deliberate misinformation. Then there's your mentioned 2D display of 3D battle (although Trek battles seem to large ly be 2.5D-they never use the relative vertical all that much).

No proof of this either. I know I suggested this, but I retract it now for my more elegant theory.

IT might be simplified that doesn't include weapon coverages (Phoenix may have been within theoretical max range bout outside the firing arc of that weapon system).

Perhaps, but when Data says "the Phoenix has stationed itself outside the range of the Cardassian vessel's weapons" we see the Phoenix's dot right outside the second circle. For dialogue to agree with visual, that means the circles represent weapons ranges, with the second circle being the maximum weapons range of that particular vessel.

Maybe the Phoenix reactivated her ECM (Khan clearly mentions an override in TWOK, that nincompoop at tactical simply couldn't find it).

No evidence of this either.

And let's face it-at least for the lead characters everybody on the bridge is a retard

No evidence for this either (I know you're joking on this last point).

In short, although your theories are plausable and even possible, my theory introduces the least amount of variables. Since Data says that they are outside the weapons range of the Cardassian vessel, and the Phoenix dot is right outside the second circle, it is logical to conclude that the second circle represents the maximum weapons range of the vessel. If the circles represent weapons ranges, then as a logical consequence that particular Cardassian vessel cannot have the weapons system that allows it to shoot beyond one light second up to the third circle, or everybody on the bridge would have noticed the error.

Brian

[Batman]

All of your explainations introduce extra variables.

So does yours.

I can think of another one, actually: The Feds overestimate Cardie effective weapons range.

No proof of this.

No proof of what the Cardies were armed with. Given that IIRC it was called a 'battleship' (that's from the german version so if the original disagrees I conceed the point) one would assume they have everything including the kitchen sink.

OR, if that display is based on info the Cardassians PROVIDED to the Feds it's deliberate misinformation. Then there's your mentioned 2D display of 3D battle (although Trek battles seem to large ly be 2.5D-they never use the relative vertical all that much).

No proof of this either. I know I suggested this, but I retract it now for my more elegant theory.

Which ALSO includes more variables (well, one at least).

It might be simplified that doesn't include weapon coverages (Phoenix may have been within theoretical max range bout outside the firing arc of that weapon system).

Perhaps, but when Data says "the Phoenix has stationed itself outside the range of the Cardassian vessel's weapons" we see the Phoenix's dot right outside the second circle. For dialogue to agree with visual, that means the circles represent weapons ranges, with the second circle being the maximum weapons range of that particular vessel.

And that disagrees with my take how exactly?

Maybe the Phoenix reactivated her ECM (Khan clearly mentions an override in TWOK, that nincompoop at tactical simply couldn't find it).

No evidence of this either.

No evidence of the Cardie having substandard armament either.

And let's face it-at least for the lead characters everybody on the bridge is a retard

No evidence for this either (I know you're joking on this last point).

Excuse me? Every last one of them has repeatedly made incredibly stupid decisions that on several occasions resulted in needless loss of life.

In short, although your theories are plausable and even possible, my theory introduces the least amount of variables.

One. As do my theories.

Since Data says that they are outside the weapons range of the Cardassian vessel, and the Phoenix dot is right outside the second circle, it is logical to conclude that the second circle represents the maximum weapons range of the vessel.
If the circles represent weapons ranges, then as a logical consequence that particular Cardassian vessel cannot have the weapons system that allows it to shoot beyond one light second up to the third circle, or everybody on the bridge would have noticed the error.
Brian

As they would if your theory was correct. Yet nobody commented on that. I notice a distinct lack of people asking' Why doesn't the Cardie keep shooting?'

[The Silence and I]

Actually, I like the firing angle idea. By "the Phoenix has stationed itself outside the range of the Cardassian vessel's weapons" Data could have meant the Phoenix was now in a weapon blind spot.

This makes more sense to me now, because range can mean both taken in this context. Data is usually more precise, but if the statement can mean two things and one makes more sense than the other...

Batman, you have my support for this idea of yours.

[brianeyci]

So does yours.

Okay, lets see.

No proof of what the Cardies were armed with. Given that IIRC it was called a 'battleship' (that's from the german version so if the original disagrees I conceed the point) one would assume they have everything including the kitchen sink.

We know of Galor. Therefore, the battleship is Galor. Galor is armed with phasers IIRC.

Which ALSO includes more variables (well, one at least).

Data says the ship is outside the Cardassian vessel's weapon range. The ship is right outside the second circle. Therefore, the second circle represents the Cardassian ship's weapon range. Everything else is a logical consequence of this premise, for example the third ring representing different but not present weapons systems.

But the difference between my variables and yours is that mine agree with what Data says, and the location of the Phoenix just outside the second circle as he says "The Phoenix has positioned itself just outside weapons range." Yours such as ECM override, overestimation, bad tactical, weapons coverage, have no visuals or dialogue to support them. They are extraneous variables. Might as well say "Borg destroyed the Cardassian ship" that's one variable is it not, but it is an unsupported variable just like all your variables.

And that disagrees with my take how exactly?

You introduce other things that we know nothing about like firing arc and a theoretical range.

No evidence of the Cardie having substandard armament either.

The Cardassian ship having substandard armadment is a logical conclusion that the rings represent weapons ranges. Weapons ranges is a logical conclusion of the Phoenix right outside the second circle and Data saying "The Phoenix is right outside weapons range."

Excuse me? Every last one of them has repeatedly made incredibly stupid decisions that on several occasions resulted in needless loss of life.

Who fucking cares. Unless you can prove they were wrong in this specific instance, it doesn't matter. Might as well say a mass murderer is always wrong, by virtue of him being wrong once. No matter how reprehensible the mass murderer, it is not a logical conclusion. For example, you could use this argument for the "1 terawatt" figure for Federation power generation and say Riker was wrong when he said "more power than entire ship" on the basis of Riker being a moron, but you don't see anybody doing that.

One. As do my theories.

Your theories introduce a lot of unnecessary things we don't know. We know that the Phoenix was outside the second circle as Data said "just outside weapons range". Your theory may introduce only one variable, but it is an unsupported variable. My variable is supported by the visual and Data's dialogue.

As they would if your theory was correct. Yet nobody commented on that. I notice a distinct lack of people asking' Why doesn't the Cardie keep shooting?'

There are any number of possible reasons, but just because the Cardie ship doesn't keep shooting it does not hurt the argument that the second ring represents the maximum range for the Cardassian weapons, if Data's dialogue is to agree with the visual.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Actually, I like the firing angle idea. By "the Phoenix has stationed itself outside the range of the Cardassian vessel's weapons" Data could have meant the Phoenix was now in a weapon blind spot.

The problem is we know nothing of a Cardassian blindspot in their phasers. All we know is that the Phoenix stations itself outside the second circle, and Data says it is outside the range of the Cardassian ship's weapons. Therefore, the second circle represents maximum range, or maximum effective range.

Brian

[Batman]

Actually, I like the firing angle idea. By "the Phoenix has stationed itself outside the range of the Cardassian vessel's weapons" Data could have meant the Phoenix was now in a weapon blind spot.
This makes more sense to me now, because range can mean both taken in this context. Data is usually more precise, but if the statement can mean two things and one makes more sense than the other...
Batman, you have my support for this idea of yours.

Your support is duly noted.
However, as all of those theories introduce an extra variable, I doubt it's possible to determine which of them is more plausible as we quite simply don't have all the data. I personally prefer the 2D vs 3D one because it manages to explain the Phoenix being out range yet still within the circle conundrum. I mean it's not like the Feds haven't gone with stupid equipment layouts before. Touchscreen consoles, anybody?

[brianeyci]

Your support is duly noted.

Dammit, Silence and I is supposed to be my bitch, get back here! =D.

However, as all of those theories introduce an extra variable,

Phoenix is outside weapons range of the Cardassian ship. We see the dot just outside the second circle. Therefore the second circle is maximum range, or maximum effective range. This "extra variable" is supported by dialogue and visuals, so it is not really an extra variable. All other points I present are a logical consequence of this.

I doubt it's possible to determine which of them is more plausible as we quite simply don't have all the data. I personally prefer the 2D vs 3D one

That is my idea! =D.

because it manages to explain the Phoenix being out range yet still within the circle conundrum. I mean it's not like the Feds haven't gone with stupid equipment layouts before. Touchscreen consoles, anybody?

Federation had a 3D tactical display in TOS. Guess they forgot about that.

Brian