Starfleet... Police Force?

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2005-01-08 11:02am

I'm a long time trek fan and I have been in the US Navy for a long time. Starfleet is the most non-military organization around. By US military standards Starfleet is more akin to a police department in regementation and discipline.

Been having a discussion with someone about the purpose of Starfleet, and after listing my own reasons for believing that it is military, he comes back with that.

What do you think, is Starfleet more of a galactic police force than it is a 'military'? I'm hoping some of you military guys can better define it for me as I'm not big into it, but surely a defensive force armed and organised in the way Starfleet is is as much a 'military' as an offensive force?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-01-08 11:11am

More of a Coast Guard in theory. Starfleet is multipurpose and the various missions they have clash really bad with one another. Starfleet seems to have too many missions in the TNG era, from Navy to explores, to diplomats, and army.

It would be doable if they were split up into those areas, but every starfleet dudes seems to need to be all of the above, and that's where it don't track. The skill sets to be a Naval personel are totoally different to being a grunt, not to mention explorer or diplomat. You can mix and mesh two or so jobs but you start wearing to many hats and you just become piss poor at alot of jobs rather than being really good at one or maybe two.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2005-01-08 07:34pm

It's because of Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek being like the voyages of discovery in rennaisance times on earth. Back then, navies had the role of military, police, diplomats, traders and explorers. Often with roles coinciding.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2005-01-08 07:59pm

Bellator wrote:It's because of Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek being like the voyages of discovery in rennaisance times on earth. Back then, navies had the role of military, police, diplomats, traders and explorers. Often with roles coinciding.

True and this would have worked had Roddenberry stuck with it. However, he didn't because in the old navies those ships were treated as ships of war above all other duties.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-08 10:21pm

In TNG, Roddenberry pushed his already idealistic view of society over the edge and into utopia. In so doing, he turned Starfleet into a ridiculous pseudo-military with pseudo-military procedures, pseudo-military attitudes, and a ridiculous cop-out for whenever they did something totally stupid: 'It's not a military.'

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2005-01-08 10:28pm

In TNG, Roddenberry pushed his already idealistic view of society over the edge and into utopia. In so doing, he turned Starfleet into a ridiculous pseudo-military with pseudo-military procedures, pseudo-military attitudes, and a ridiculous cop-out for whenever they did something totally stupid: 'It's not a military.'

It's only expected to perform every function that a military does while denying every useful lession learned by military tradition and undergunned to the point of insanity.

Great idea Roddenberry. Fucking Goon.

The idea of a police space fleet isn't a bad one. But they should defenity have something heavier to call on, just like the Coast Guard can scream for the Navy. Or the police can scream for the SWAT team or national guard.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2005-01-08 10:46pm

The closest thing to TNG Starfleet are NOAA Corps and Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. Both are uniformed services but they're not military.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-01-09 12:14am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Bellator wrote:It's because of Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek being like the voyages of discovery in rennaisance times on earth. Back then, navies had the role of military, police, diplomats, traders and explorers. Often with roles coinciding.
True and this would have worked had Roddenberry stuck with it. However, he didn't because in the old navies those ships were treated as ships of war above all other duties.

Exactly, they could have given Picard and co broad powers for diplomacy and such, but the Enterprise should have been a ship of war for the Federation, not a touring pleasure yaht. And they could have given some Marines too, not rely on Able Space Man Smith and his amazing Redshirt to do it for them.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-01-09 12:23am

Knife wrote:Exactly, they could have given Picard and co broad powers for diplomacy and such, but the Enterprise should have been a ship of war for the Federation, not a touring pleasure yaht. And they could have given some Marines too, not rely on Able Space Man Smith and his amazing Redshirt to do it for them.

What's more, that would have been a richer vein of story potential than the generic "Bridge officer beams down and defeats the entire Klingon Empire before breakfast." You could have developed a real character dynamic between the ship crew and the landing party (which would include marines as well as scientific surveyors, ANOTHER realm of possible character conflict).

But the characters need to be in harmony with each other! No conflict...

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-01-09 12:27am

Stofsk wrote:But the characters need to be in harmony with each other! No conflict...

Hated that. The stupid "humanity has progressed beyond anger, jealousy, material wealth"... wtf were you smoking Roddenberry. Not to mention that it would have been cool to hear about how Worf detests Data and wants to kick his ass, or how Riker thinks it inappropriate for Wesley to be on the bridge and that Bev was letting herself get assfucked by Picard... lol.

Brian

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-09 04:27am

Stofsk wrote:What's more, that would have been a richer vein of story potential than the generic "Bridge officer beams down and defeats the entire Klingon Empire before breakfast." You could have developed a real character dynamic between the ship crew and the landing party (which would include marines as well as scientific surveyors, ANOTHER realm of possible character conflict).

But the characters need to be in harmony with each other! No conflict...

Oh man, how a touch of interservice rivalry would have livened up the show. It wouldn't have to be anything serious even, just some friendly sniping back and forth between the star swabbies and the grunts.

Instead we get "X character is totally fascinated with Data!" ad infinitum.

(Personally, I despised Data, and I despised the fact that he was in the line of command. A creation that cannot comprehend his underlings and therefore cannot motivate also cannot lead in any meaningful sense.)

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-01-09 05:06am

Petrosjko wrote:Instead we get "X character is totally fascinated with Data!" ad infinitum.

"OMG! Your breath stinks! Can you fart, too? What about piss and shit? That's... so... fascinating."

Not... quite what you might have had in mind.

Then again, this is the TNG Federation... they've probably 'cured' flatulence along with poverity and disease and Unhappy Thoughts.

To cut Data some slack, he was often written poorly. Furthermore, with all the 'features' they kept on adding to him, I was always curious why the writers didn't have an episode where Data's BO producer overloaded and threatened to drown the Enterprise in a cloud of robot funk.

Who the fuck calls their robot 'Data'? Jesus. I suppose 'Asskicker' isn't PC enough.

(Personally, I despised Data, and I despised the fact that he was in the line of command. A creation that cannot comprehend his underlings and therefore cannot motivate also cannot lead in any meaningful sense.)

He was kickass in "Redemption", one of Data's finest moments IMO.

"Mr Hobson. Fire. DO IT!"

JeanLucPicard · Post by **JeanLucPicard** » 2005-01-13 12:41pm

Starfleet is the military branch of the Federation. It's primary purpose is to provide security, handle hostile situations, escort cargo vessels, and the like. There are multiple branches of Starfleet. There is Tactical Command, Medical Division, Scientific Division, Exploratory Division, et. al. To sum it up, Starfleet is more militaristic now than when it was first founded.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2005-01-13 12:42pm

Please provide evidence for these different divisions and commands. Also please provide evidence of how Starfleet was when it was first founded, since we have never seen the founding of the Federation in any canon source.

JeanLucPicard · Post by **JeanLucPicard** » 2005-01-13 12:54pm

Howedar wrote:Please provide evidence for these different divisions and commands. Also please provide evidence of how Starfleet was when it was first founded, since we have never seen the founding of the Federation in any canon source.

Ok...

..."ARTICLE 54, Articles of the United Federation of Planets...'It is the intent fo these articles of Federation that Starfleet shall be used to conduct missions of scientific exploration and investigation within the treaty exploration territory whenever its services are nto required in the matinence of interplanetary peace and security"

I have personally seen in different episodes that there are different divisions of Starfleet. For example, if I remember correctly, LtCom Shelby was from Starfleet's Tactical Division. I've also heard reference by Dr. Bashir of the Medical Division of Starfleet. And I think I heard Spock say something once about a Starfleet Science Division. There is also the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps. It was mentioned in one of the TOS episodes.

Originally in TOS, the Enterprise was on peaceful missions, with the occasional bad guy. As the newer series came out, I noticed that there were more and more military missions than there were before. DS9 and Enterprise are prime examples of that.

I hope that clears it up for you!

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2005-01-13 12:56pm

since we have never seen the founding of the Federation in any canon source.

Actually, we have. Daniels showed Archer in Ent. But of course, that showed us nothing about the nature of Star Fleet.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-01-13 12:59pm

JeanLucPicard wrote:
Howedar wrote:Please provide evidence for these different divisions and commands. Also please provide evidence of how Starfleet was when it was first founded, since we have never seen the founding of the Federation in any canon source.
Ok...

..."ARTICLE 54, Articles of the United Federation of Planets...'It is the intent fo these articles of Federation that Starfleet shall be used to conduct missions of scientific exploration and investigation within the treaty exploration territory whenever its services are nto required in the matinence of interplanetary peace and security"

I have personally seen in different episodes that there are different divisions of Starfleet. For example, if I remember correctly, LtCom Shelby was from Starfleet's Tactical Division. I've also heard reference by Dr. Bashir of the Medical Division of Starfleet. And I think I heard Spock say something once about a Starfleet Science Division. There is also the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps. It was mentioned in one of the TOS episodes.

Originally in TOS, the Enterprise was on peaceful missions, with the occasional bad guy. As the newer series came out, I noticed that there were more and more military missions than there were before. DS9 and Enterprise are prime examples of that.

I hope that clears it up for you!

And where is this from?

JeanLucPicard · Post by **JeanLucPicard** » 2005-01-13 01:00pm

Bellator wrote:
since we have never seen the founding of the Federation in any canon source.
Actually, we have. Daniels showed Archer in Ent. But of course, that showed us nothing about the nature of Star Fleet.

Yeah, all Daniels showed Archer was a big conference room like what the UN has.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2005-01-13 01:11pm

JeanLucPicard wrote:Ok...

..."ARTICLE 54, Articles of the United Federation of Planets...'It is the intent fo these articles of Federation that Starfleet shall be used to conduct missions of scientific exploration and investigation within the treaty exploration territory whenever its services are nto required in the matinence of interplanetary peace and security"

Where's that from?

I have personally seen in different episodes that there are different divisions of Starfleet. For example, if I remember correctly, LtCom Shelby was from Starfleet's Tactical Division. I've also heard reference by Dr. Bashir of the Medical Division of Starfleet. And I think I heard Spock say something once about a Starfleet Science Division. There is also the Starfleet Diplomatic Corps. It was mentioned in one of the TOS episodes.

Since they were all on the same vessels, it would be misleading to say that Starfleet has different divisions.

Originally in TOS, the Enterprise was on peaceful missions, with the occasional bad guy. As the newer series came out, I noticed that there were more and more military missions than there were before. DS9 and Enterprise are prime examples of that.

Enterprise is not chronologically after TOS, nor is it even relevant in this discussion of Starfleet, which does not even exist at the time.

Of course you're also ignoring the Klingon War stated to occur somewhat before TOS.

JeanLucPicard · Post by **JeanLucPicard** » 2005-01-13 01:14pm

The Articles of the Federation came from the Star Trek Technical Manual.

They were not all on the same ship. Shelby was Ent-D, Bashir was DS9, and Spock was Ent.

Sorry about the Enterprise thing, I sorta forgot.

The Klingon war did not get that much attention in TOS.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-01-13 01:16pm

JeanLucPicard wrote:The Articles of the Federation came from the Star Trek Technical Manual.

Which, of course, has no canonicity whatsoever and is therefore completely irrellevant.

EDITed to remove superflous and therefore lonely and depressed quote tag
there, there...

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2005-01-13 01:17pm

The Star Trek Technical Manual is not canon and has no bearing on these debates.

As for being on the same ship, I thought it would be clear that I meant they were not on tactical ships, medical ships, science ships, and so forth. We've seen a couple of science-oriented ships and one medical ship, and all of them had generic Starfleet personnel instead of people out of a certain "wing" of Starfleet.

JeanLucPicard · Post by **JeanLucPicard** » 2005-01-13 01:28pm

Howedar wrote:The Star Trek Technical Manual is not canon and has no bearing on these debates.

As for being on the same ship, I thought it would be clear that I meant they were not on tactical ships, medical ships, science ships, and so forth. We've seen a couple of science-oriented ships and one medical ship, and all of them had generic Starfleet personnel instead of people out of a certain "wing" of Starfleet.

The tech manual is the only source of the Articles of the Federation, it is not found in any of the movies, or episodes, so in this case, I think it is canon.

I would give some more examples, but I don't have the 411 @ this moment, I'll get back later w/it.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-01-13 01:30pm

JeanLucPicard wrote:
Howedar wrote:The Star Trek Technical Manual is not canon and has no bearing on these debates.
The tech manual is the only source of the Articles of the Federation, it is not found in any of the movies, or episodes, so in this case, I think it is canon.

Fortunately what you think is totally irrellevant, too. Paramount says it isn't canon, therefore it isn't canon.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2005-01-13 01:31pm

You lose.