Heat and cloaking technology

[Sarevok]

Where does the heat generated by a cloaked starship go ?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Knowing Star Trek, probably subspace.

[Chris OFarrell]

Knowing Star Trek, probably subspace.

THats actualy not as stupid as it sounds. CLoaked ships can be detected by passive sensors often as subspace anomolies. Which may mean when they are using power at a higher level they can be seen easier. That if they stay slow and with low power, the subspace 'noise' is masked in background noise. But increasing levels of power cause the signature to become distinctive.

[Robert Walper]

Knowing Star Trek, probably subspace.

THats actualy not as stupid as it sounds. CLoaked ships can be detected by passive sensors often as subspace anomolies. Which may mean when they are using power at a higher level they can be seen easier. That if they stay slow and with low power, the subspace 'noise' is masked in background noise. But increasing levels of power cause the signature to become distinctive.

Given in Trek even matter (like a starship, mass lightening, example in STVOY "Think Tank") can be pushed into subspace, it doesn't sound unreasonable they can push energy there as well.

[Darth Wong]

The fact that the heat from starships was explicitly stated to be dumped into space in ST6 wouldn't have any bearing on this subspace technobabble Trekkie wankfest, would it?

No, of course not. No doubt you will assume that they've magically "solved" that problem even though it was stated to be an inevitable side-effect of starship operation by Spock himself, who was obviously already familiar with Trek subspace.

[Batman]

The fact that the heat from starships was explicitly stated to be dumped into space in ST6 wouldn't have any bearing on this subspace technobabble Trekkie wankfest, would it?

Huh? Where? I remember them detecting a gamma radiation spike when the cloaked BOP, and the using the exhaust trail of the BOP to fire at it. Where did they mention waste heat?

[Patrick Degan]

Plasma exhaust from the impulse drive.

[drachefly]

To back this up -- if it were simply the reaction thrust, then it would all have a very high velocity, and if the BoP were to, say, TURN... it would be spread all over the place and the torpedo would be unable to track it. So, this must be low-speed, gently released plasma, which would form a relatively coherent path. The only reason I can think of for such a gentle release would be thermal exhaust.

While we're here... why the general didn't simply hit warp for a moment to break the trail, and then come back, is beyond me. It is shown on-screen that he figured out that torpedo was going to hit several seconds in advance. Maybe this special cloak was exclusive with warp, as a trade-off with being nonexclusive with weapon use... maybe a BoP has a long warp warm-up period?

[JME2]

The fact that the heat from starships was explicitly stated to be dumped into space in ST6 wouldn't have any bearing on this subspace technobabble Trekkie wankfest, would it?

Huh? Where? I remember them detecting a gamma radiation spike when the cloaked BOP, and the using the exhaust trail of the BOP to fire at it. Where did they mention waste heat?

Nitpick -- Neutron Radiation. not Gamma. If it was Gamma, then the Federation or Klingons would wonder why the Hulk had shown up in their era...

[Stark]

Wouldn't the subspace thing violate thermodynamics anyway? Since we're talking about waste heat from powerplants, sweaty humans, etc... how can you put that in subspace? Won't it be as unworkable as the cooling laser idea?

[Lancer]

they manage to dump mass into subspace, as well as other forms of energy. What makes heat fundamentally any different?

[Stark]

Its the process used; a system to dump waste heat will generate heat itself. For instance, if they dumped it into subspace using the warp drive, the extra throughput would heat the drive elements more, yes? So you've got a net-loss situation.

If they could dump mass into subspace, that might work; of course I'd bet that the process for doing so would be power-intensive, thus generating more heat, thus useless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Batman]

Its the process used; a system to dump waste heat will generate heat itself. For instance, if they dumped it into subspace using the warp drive, the extra throughput would heat the drive elements more, yes? So you've got a net-loss situation.

Um- the same is true for any cooling system. They seem to be pretty popular regardless.

[Darth Wong]

they manage to dump mass into subspace, as well as other forms of energy. What makes heat fundamentally any different?

Heat is entropic, ie- not ordered, therefore not as easily controlled as a physical object. This is like saying that I can put a hammer in a box, so I should be able to put 100% of the waste heat from my car into a box. Learn some basic fucking logic.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

This is like saying that I can put a hammer in a box, so I should be able to put 100% of the waste heat from my car into a box.

I had to do that once. It was a long car ride.

No air conditioning.

[Luke Starkiller]

Its the process used; a system to dump waste heat will generate heat itself. For instance, if they dumped it into subspace using the warp drive, the extra throughput would heat the drive elements more, yes? So you've got a net-loss situation.

Um- the same is true for any cooling system. They seem to be pretty popular regardless.

Cooling systems are used to move energy from one place to another (like cooling computer componenets to prevent overheating failures) yes inefficiencies will cause a net increase in heat, but not at the source which is cooled and still recieves some benefit.

[Batman]

Cooling systems are used to move energy from one place to another (like cooling computer componenets to prevent overheating failures) yes inefficiencies will cause a net increase in heat, but not at the source which is cooled and still recieves some benefit.

Indeed. The point remains that the heat eventually has to go somewhere, in the case of computer components the surrounding air, i.e. it is effectively removed from the generating system. This is no doubt more difficult when you're reduced to transmission dissipation thanks to lack of atmosphere but does not invalidate the fact that you ARE removing heat from the system-in this case, the cloaked starship- to its surroundings-i.e. a fuckload of empty space.
Which, of course, STILL leaves the question wether this heat can or can not be used to detect a cloaked vessel.
Any clue on wether or not heat actually WAS mentioned in TUC as a means to do so, anybody (thanks for the correction, BTW JME2)?

[The Silence and I]

Any clue on wether or not heat actually WAS mentioned in TUC as a means to do so, anybody (thanks for the correction, BTW JME2)?

Well I just checked my copy of the script... not even close to the movie events, so next I checked the movie. The dialog is as follows:

Spock
"Gas. Gas, captain. Under impulse power she expends fuel like any other vessel, we call it plasma but whatever the Klingon designation--it is merely ionized gas."
Uhura
"Well what about all that equipment we're carrying to catalogue gaseous anomolies? Well the thing's gotta have a tail pipe."

This leads me to believe Spock refered to the waste gas produced by fusion reactors--most likely helium--and not anything coming out the back of the impulse engines as thrust (If indeed anything does--Impulse is a most remarkably difficult device to explain and may be reactionless). This satisfies drachefly's slow moving gas requirement, and it also suggests waste heat is not a vulnerability, as no mention of heat was made (there is mention in the script; but the possibility is dropped because of distance. If this is to be used it would seem any heat released in real space is so trivial it will blend into the background radiation at combat range). When all's said and done, the "tail pipe" analogy works very well.

I would point out this "tail pipe" has apparently been fixed in later cloaks; the Enterprise D in "The Battle" is capable of readily detecting the movement of trace gases found in hard vacuum when a starship displaces them suddenly. Such a sensor reading would be trivial next to the volume and mass of the helium produced by a fusion generator providing the power needed to maneuver a starship, suggesting there is a tail pipe no longer.

[Darth Wong]

This leads me to believe Spock refered to the waste gas produced by fusion reactors--most likely helium--and not anything coming out the back of the impulse engines as thrust (If indeed anything does--Impulse is a most remarkably difficult device to explain and may be reactionless). This satisfies drachefly's slow moving gas requirement, and it also suggests waste heat is not a vulnerability, as no mention of heat was made (there is mention in the script; but the possibility is dropped because of distance.

That's fucking stupid; do you think ionized fusion powerplant exhaust gases would be cold?

If this is to be used it would seem any heat released in real space is so trivial it will blend into the background radiation at combat range). When all's said and done, the "tail pipe" analogy works very well.

Do you think the tailpipe of a car that's been running for a while is not hot? Would you like to rub your genitals against one in order to test this hypothesis?

I would point out this "tail pipe" has apparently been fixed in later cloaks; the Enterprise D in "The Battle" is capable of readily detecting the movement of trace gases found in hard vacuum when a starship displaces them suddenly.

At a range of a couple of hundred metres. Also, it can't be hard vacuum. Pressure waves in gas require that the particles be dense enough to behave in a pseudo-atmospheric fashion and interact significantly. The fact that it's in what appears to be space does not prove that it's hard vacuum; Trek is full of space-borne but gaseous environments, such as nebulae (not all nebulae are going to look as dense or funky as Mutara).

Such a sensor reading would be trivial next to the volume and mass of the helium produced by a fusion generator providing the power needed to maneuver a starship, suggesting there is a tail pipe no longer.

I like the way you support your fantastic violation of thermodynamics by simply saying that your particular interpretation of events "suggests" it

[brianeyci]

Can't we just use pure logic to solve this conundrum? Lets just search for ion trail in the TNG scripts, I'm sure we come up with something.

DATA
I am reading an ion trail
characteristic of a freighter
escape pod.

SCOTT
(off console)
The Enterprise ion trail leads
right to this point.

They both study the image of the portal for a moment.

GEORDI
It looks like some kind of doorway.

SCOTT
I'll bet you two bottles of scotch
that they're inside the sphere...
and that they went in right
through that hatch.

It shows a QUANTUM FISSURE in the middle of the screen --
a very small GLOWING SPECK that is DISTORTING the area
of space just around it.

RIKER
Is it dangerous?

DATA
Not at this distance, sir.
(works)
I am also detecting an ion trail
intersecting the phenomenon. I
believe it was left by a Starfleet
type-six shuttlecraft.

Reactions.

WORF
So I was here...

First example is from a primitive race. Oh well. They can detect the trail left by an escape pod. Second example shows that an old 75+ (dunno exact age) year old freighter can detect the "ion trail" of the Federation Flagship. Third example shows that they don't need to launch some sort of specialized probe to track where the "ion trail" leads from a small shuttlecraft. I not believe that in the numerous times that Ent-D encountered Romulan Warbirds, that they detected this "ion trail" (if it leaves one).

Unless someone wants to argue that the "ion trail" left by a shuttlecraft is greater than one left by a Romulan Warbird, then Warbirds somehow "mask" their ion trail or the Enterprise would have detected it (if Warbirds leave such a trail).

Unless someone argues "oh, maybe they were stupid", which is retarded. If a fucking 75+ year old freighter can detect the ion trail of a Galaxy, then a Galaxy should be able to detect the ion trail of a Romulan Warbird, if it leaves one. If it doesn't then it solves the conundrum anyway.

I don't see the point in this argument other than trying to say "HAHAHA TNG Federation Stooopid TOS Federation Smart" and thinking that a torpedo with special sensors would have worked against a Romulan Warbird. Kirk was legendary (Sisko mentions this I believe), his exploits would have been covered in the Academy along with that little trick, unless it was classified. Even if this trick was classified, why wouldn't Starfleet have told its Captains of this little trick and why wasn't it standard procedure in the TNG era versus Romulan ships than resorting to some stupid technobabble tachyon field.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Can't we just use pure logic to solve this conundrum?

You can try. Unfortunately, it doesn't lead to the answer that you so obviously want.

First example is from a primitive race. Oh well. They can detect the trail left by an escape pod. Second example shows that an old 75+ (dunno exact age) year old freighter can detect the "ion trail" of the Federation Flagship. Third example shows that they don't need to launch some sort of specialized probe to track where the "ion trail" leads from a small shuttlecraft. I not believe that in the numerous times that Ent-D encountered Romulan Warbirds, that they detected this "ion trail" (if it leaves one).

So? What does this prove? That they can tell a Warbird was in the area? So what? It doesn't mean they can actually track it well enough to hit it.

Unless someone wants to argue that the "ion trail" left by a shuttlecraft is greater than one left by a Romulan Warbird, then Warbirds somehow "mask" their ion trail or the Enterprise would have detected it (if Warbirds leave such a trail).

Nice false dilemma fallacy

Unless someone argues "oh, maybe they were stupid", which is retarded. If a fucking 75+ year old freighter can detect the ion trail of a Galaxy, then a Galaxy should be able to detect the ion trail of a Romulan Warbird, if it leaves one. If it doesn't then it solves the conundrum anyway.

Oh I see, if you call your false dilemma fallacy a "conundrum" then it presents a problem, right?

I don't see the point in this argument other than trying to say "HAHAHA TNG Federation Stooopid TOS Federation Smart" and thinking that a torpedo with special sensors would have worked against a Romulan Warbird.

It might, if the Warbird was stupid enough to just sit there and watch the torp coming at them the way Chang did. Oops, did I point out yet another case where you deliberately ignored an obvious explanation in order to support your bullshit?

Kirk was legendary (Sisko mentions this I believe), his exploits would have been covered in the Academy along with that little trick, unless it was classified.

And of course, nobody in the Trek universe would have thought of any other conceivable countermeasure even with decades of time to analyze this incident, so the only possible explanation is that they can violate thermodynamics

Even if this trick was classified, why wouldn't Starfleet have told its Captains of this little trick and why wasn't it standard procedure in the TNG era versus Romulan ships than resorting to some stupid technobabble tachyon field.

Because it only works at short range and they can easily avoid the slow-tracking torpedo? God, you're a dumb-ass.

[brianeyci]

Actually I didn't consider the Chang going to warp thingy. Obviously the torpedo was slow tracking and obviously if a Romulan warbird went to warp it would avoid it.

*slaps own head*

<edit>One more thing though. My points might be invalid about creating a homing torpedo, but what about merely detecting the presence of a Romulan Warbird?</edit>

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Actually I didn't consider the Chang going to warp thingy. Obviously the torpedo was slow tracking and obviously if a Romulan warbird went to warp it would avoid it.

*slaps own head*

Ha ha, Chang got a lot worse than a slap in the head for HIS stupidity :wink

<edit>One more thing though. My points might be invalid about creating a homing torpedo, but what about merely detecting the presence of a Romulan Warbird?</edit>

Brian

There are plenty of ways to do that. For example, DS9 once detected a cloaked Romulan warbird circling the station by the gravitational distortions produced by its singularity-based powerplant. Presumably it's pointless to look for plasma exhaust in an environment where dozens of ships are coming and going all the time, but once again one is forced to ask why they did not routinely scan for this kind of distortion instead of doing it once and then never mentioning it again. But one might argue that it only works at short range.

[brianeyci]

A tactic Voyager once used on the think-tank was to try and use spatial charges to force the think-tank out of cloak. They said spatial charges would work, but that there would be a problem once the think tank decloaked because its hull was made of neutronium. So the spatial charges would force a ship out of cloak. No mention was made of how they would detect the general area of the think-tank. Presumably the Hirogen (I believe, don't remember) had enough ships to search the space around and knew that the think-tank would be nearby, they had dozens closing in on Voyager.

If you could detect even the general vicinity of a Romulan Warbird reliably, you could fire spatial charges and force it out of cloak. Of course, the Voyager could be wrong. But I don't see why Picard with his fleet in TNG Redemption couldn't have used spatial charges if they could detect the exhaust from a Warbird.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

A tactic Voyager once used on the think-tank was to try and use spatial charges to force the think-tank out of cloak. They said spatial charges would work, but that there would be a problem once the think tank decloaked because its hull was made of neutronium. So the spatial charges would force a ship out of cloak. No mention was made of how they would detect the general area of the think-tank. Presumably the Hirogen (I believe, don't remember) had enough ships to search the space around and knew that the think-tank would be nearby, they had dozens closing in on Voyager.

If you could detect even the general vicinity of a Romulan Warbird reliably, you could fire spatial charges and force it out of cloak. Of course, the Voyager could be wrong. But I don't see why Picard with his fleet in TNG Redemption couldn't have used spatial charges if they could detect the exhaust from a Warbird.

Brian

What the hell is a "spatial charge"?