Borg frequency dependency and Dark Frontier

[Winston Blake]

QUEEN: We've arrived. Are you ready?
SEVEN: I have familiarised myself with the species.
QUEEN: Tactical weakness.
SEVEN: Their vessels lack manoeuverability.
QUEEN: Tactical strength.
SEVEN: They've developed a modulating phaser pulse that can penetrate our shields.
QUEEN: How do you propose we adapt.
SEVEN: You are the Borg. You tell me.
QUEEN: Thirty nine of their vessels are converging on our position. They're firing weapons. Our shields are failing. We will be destroyed. How do you propose we adapt.
SEVEN: Triaxillate our shield geometry to absorb their phaser pulses.
QUEEN: I was thinking the same thing. Adaptation complete. They're no longer a threat. Go to the primary assimilation chamber. You'll monitor the bio-extraction process. You look reluctant. Maybe I've been pushing you too quickly. You can assist with the repairs to our shield matrix instead. Seven of Nine, be efficient.

Borg apologists typically hold up this quote as an example of the Borg adapting in a way not frequency related, in the only example against an enemy that isn't the Federation. (However, the attack is known to be frequency based because the enemy was firing a "modulating phaser pulse").

Since no known wave-related terms (such as frequency) were mentioned and 'shield geometry triaxillation' is uselessly ambiguous technobabble, this is used to 'prove' that Borg defences are not frequency dependent. However, 'triaxillation' has occurred elsewhere:

TUVOK: Ensign Kim, do you hear something.
KIM: Hear what?
TUVOK: A series of high frequencies. They are getting louder.
KIM: Must be those Vulcan ears of yours.
JANEWAY: I hear it too. Anything on sensors?
TUVOK: It appears to be an alien comm signal. Triaxillating wave-lengths.
CHAKOTAY: Origin.
TUVOK: Unknown.
KIM: Captain, a vessel just dropped out of warp. Approaching fast off the port bow.

Chakotay: "How're you transmitting the signal that far?"
Doctor: "We're using a triaxillating frequency on a co-variant subspace band. It was B'Elanna's idea."

Kim: "The deflector's in position."
Janeway: "Anything?"
Kim: "I'm picking up a phased tachyon beam."
Seven: "There's a tri-axillating signal encoded in it."
Janeway: "On screen."
Live contact is established between Voyager and Project Pathfinder at Starfleet Command on Earth, but the incoming signal from Earth is weak and rather distorted.

[The frequency is discovered.]
Borg Queen: "Disrupt the frequency."
Borg Queen: "It's not working. They're using a triaxillating modulation. ... If we can't terminate their link, then we'll simply have to pay them a visit."

ARCHER: Are you sure this is a secure frequency?
SATO: I'm triaxilating the signal, sir.

SATO: They've cut transmission.
??????: Were you able to trace it?
SATO: They were using a triaxilating signal.

'Triaxillation' has repeatedly been directly associated with frequencies, wavelengths, modulation, and communication signals throughout Star Trek, and shields are known to be frequency related. So the Dark Frontier quote is invalid since it cannot rely on the ambiguity of 'shield geometry triaxillation' to avoid the frequency dependency of Borg adaptation.

[Stark]

Heh. Hoist on their own technobabble.

Whats with the trend of even obsessed trekkies like DS not knowing this stuff? Do they deliberately ignore it to make their cases seem stronger?

[Sarevok]

God that dialogue is awful. Reminding me again why I no longer watch Voyager.

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

Borg apologists typically hold up this quote as an example of the Borg adapting in a way not frequency related, in the only example against an enemy that isn't the Federation. (However, the attack is known to be frequency based because the enemy was firing a "modulating phaser pulse").

Since no known wave-related terms (such as frequency) were mentioned and 'shield geometry triaxillation' is uselessly ambiguous technobabble, this is used to 'prove' that Borg defences are not frequency dependent. However, 'triaxillation' has occurred elsewhere:

*snip*

'Triaxillation' has repeatedly been directly associated with frequencies, wavelengths, modulation, and communication signals throughout Star Trek, and shields are known to be frequency related. So the Dark Frontier quote is invalid since it cannot rely on the ambiguity of 'shield geometry triaxillation' to avoid the frequency dependency of Borg adaptation.

It would be best to determine what the term" triaxillate" means. For example:

"triaxillate our shield geometry"

"triaxillate communication frequencies"

"triaxillate shield frequencies"

"triaxillate the signal"

Replace the above term "triaxillate" with "alternate", and you see that Seven's comment means an entirely different thing.

I don't see your arguement disproving Borg adaptation is capable of countering a frequency specific weapon by non frequency adaptation technique.

[Winston Blake]

It would be best to determine what the term" triaxillate" means. For example:

"triaxillate our shield geometry"

"triaxillate communication frequencies"

"triaxillate shield frequencies"

"triaxillate the signal"

Replace the above term "triaxillate" with "alternate", and you see that Seven's comment means an entirely different thing.

Replace it with "modulate" and you get a frequency related thing. Hell, replace it with "sodomise" and you get another entirely different thing- since Dark Frontier is an ambiguous exception to the rule, the burden of proof is on you to prove that triaxillation has nothing to do with wave phenomena and hence frequencies. Just because replacing the word with another changes the sentence's meaning doesn't mean the term is NOT related to what you don't want it to be.

An alien comm signal using triaxillating wavelengths.
A subspace signal transmission on a triaxillating frequency.
A triaxillating modulation of a frequency.
A phased tachyon beam with a tri-axillating signal encoded in it.
More triaxillated signal transmissions.

I don't see your arguement disproving Borg adaptation is capable of countering a frequency specific weapon by non frequency adaptation technique.

You claim the Borg can do something we have never seen them do based on one ambiguous example since it contains no obviously wave-related terms. The burden of proof is on you to show that triaxillation has nothing to do with frequencies. You can't hide behind the ambiguity of the term any more, since it has now been directly associated with wave-related terms and phenomena on many occasions.

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

OT:

Is this an attempt of the authors to create some sort of technobabble related wave with 3 axis (triaxial), thus the term triaxillate?

Anyway a google search with the term triaxialate will come up with only 1 result.....from an ASVSer

[Winston Blake]

OT:

Is this an attempt of the authors to create some sort of technobabble related wave with 3 axis (triaxial), thus the term triaxillate?

Anyway a google search with the term triaxialate will come up with only 1 result.....from an ASVSer

Seems to be meaningless, but interestingly if you break 'triaxillate' down you get 'make it so it has three armpits'.

[Robert Walper]

Replace it with "modulate" and you get a frequency related thing. Hell, replace it with "sodomise" and you get another entirely different thing- since Dark Frontier is an ambiguous exception to the rule, the burden of proof is on you to prove that triaxillation has nothing to do with wave phenomena and hence frequencies. Just because replacing the word with another changes the sentence's meaning doesn't mean the term is NOT related to what you don't want it to be.

The term triaxillate is used in conjunction with a upcoming modification to their shield geometry. Care to explain how the vessel's shield geometry would have anything to do with the frequency of their shields?

I don't see your arguement disproving Borg adaptation is capable of countering a frequency specific weapon by non frequency adaptation technique.

You claim the Borg can do something we have never seen them do based on one ambiguous example since it contains no obviously wave-related terms.

You obviously don't grasp the significance of the fact we only see the Borg adapt to one enemy, the Federation. The first time we witness them adapt to a different enemy, they use a different adaptation technique. If that's beyond your comprehension, that's your problem, not mine.

The burden of proof is on you to show that triaxillation has nothing to do with frequencies.

Read Seven's comment where she's talking about shield geometry, not frequency.

You can't hide behind the ambiguity of the term any more, since it has now been directly associated with wave-related terms and phenomena on many occasions.

So triaxillate can be a multi purpose modification term, including frequencies.

The fact of the matter is Seven was talking about shield geometry, not frequencies.

The weapon in question was in all likelyhood frequency based, but the Borg clearly can adapt to frequency specific weapons in more than one way.

[SirNitram]

Remember, also, that Dark Frontier's situation involves a 'Modulated'(Another word that deals with frequency) phaser weapon. Throw in that geometry is quite important to any work with frequencies, and this is an open-and-shut for any sensible person. No doubt this explains why Walper is back, yet again, to try and defend it.

Walper throws out Appeal To Ignorance Fallacies, but the fundamental crux is the only shield modification we know they can make, apart from frequency switching, is a modification only useful against.. Frequency weapons.

So triaxillate can be a multi purpose modification term, including frequencies.

This, Walper, is why I regard you as a lying asshole. THere's no indication it's used for anything but frequency-based situations.. The one instance has heavy indications of frequencies being involved. But never let that stop you being a fucking retard, huh?

[Robert Walper]

Someone care to explain to me (in terms a two year could understand) how geometry and frequency are interchangeable terms?

So...I have a piece of clay in the shape of a triangle, and modify it into a circle, I can say I modified it's geometry...but I also can say I modified it's frequency?

[SirNitram]

Someone care to explain to me (in terms a two year could understand) how geometry and frequency are interchangeable terms?

They're not. Thank you for your strawman fallacy. Still batting zero.

So...I have a piece of clay in the shape of a triangle, and modify it into a circle, I can say I modified it's geometry...but I also can say I modified it's frequency?

Anytime you want to stop with the strawman, that'll be just dandy, Robbie boy. I've explained this shit to you before.

[Robert Walper]

Someone care to explain to me (in terms a two year could understand) how geometry and frequency are interchangeable terms?

They're not. Thank you for your strawman fallacy. Still batting zero.

So when countering a frequency specific weapon, the Borg have at least two methods of doing so. Shield frequency changes and shield geometry changes. Where's the logical flaw?

[Batman]

So when countering a frequency specific weapon, the Borg have at least two methods of doing so. Shield frequency changes and shield geometry changes. Where's the logical flaw?

That would be your assumption that it works for a non-frequency specific weapon

In the words of a famous corellian smuggler:
Didn't we just leave this party?

[Robert Walper]

So when countering a frequency specific weapon, the Borg have at least two methods of doing so. Shield frequency changes and shield geometry changes. Where's the logical flaw?

That would be your assumption that it works for a non-frequency specific weapon

In the words of a famous corellian smuggler:
Didn't we just leave this party?

Can you people not fucking read?

[Ghost Rider]

For the retarded and dumb because Nitram already put it down, but Walper once again proves he's a fucking retard.

Remember, also, that Dark Frontier's situation involves a 'Modulated'(Another word that deals with frequency) phaser weapon. Throw in that geometry is quite important to any work with frequencies

And just for the sake of it all...Walper has yet to show how that Geometry IS NOT a Part of changing frequencies...given we do this in REAL LIFE. And is proven to affect frequncies.

Go on...pull out using the made up word of Triaxillate to save you pointless strawman Walper...you've tried oh so many times elsewhen.

I mean really I want you to show that what she said wasn't a technobabble way of "Match frequencies"

Because really, you have been going "la-la-la-la-la-la!!!!!" and kept doing so to just simply spam like the fucking idiot you've shown a hundred other times.

[Batman]

Ah, GR, you missed the part were Robert backpedaled like crazy and no longer claims the Borg don't adapt only TO frequency specific weapons, but instead claims it's about them having different methods of dealing WITH frequency-specific weapons

[Robert Walper]

So in other words, you're suggesting changing the geometry of a Trek shield is the same as changing the frequency of a Trek shield. I regress.

[drachefly]

Look, calm down people.

Certainly, changing something's frequency does change its geometry as a side-effect. But if you are looking at it from the geometric side, it does not necessarily follow that the frequency will be changed.

In each of the other cases listed, 'triaxillate' does indeed involve frequencies (or wavelengths, close enough). However, it seems to be a rather more complicated issue than simply changing the frequency, which is a scalar.

What does it do?
1) make signals longer-ranged (example 2)
2) make signals less traceable (examples 5, 6)

So, clearly it is something that changes the spatial characteristics. Just on being longer-ranged we can tell that. So, despite the fact that triaxillate has something to do with frequencies, it has quite a bit to do with space too.
Therefore, a borg adaptation to a frequency-less weapon could nonetheless involve the use of frequencies and wave mechanics to change their shield geometry. After all, no matter what the weapons are, the shields ARE frequency-based.

[Batman]

Who gives a rat's ass wether or not the shield frequency changes? The point, which Robert tries so valiantly to maneuver around, is that Dark Frontier has consistently been used by rabid fanwhores to 'prove' that Borg adaption is NOT limited to frequency dependent weapons, which is bullshit.
It quite clearly IS. Wether or not they have two or more methods of adpating TO weapons that are frequency dependent I severely doubt anybody gives a damn.

EDITed to fix grammar

[brianeyci]

Walper, since you feel so strongly about this, what I would do is insist on the source of the "triaxillate" words or confirm them myself. I did a quick search through all the available official scripts of TNG and DS9 with different spellings of "triaxillate", and found nothing. ENT and VOY scripts are not readily available through the internet I believe. I would pop in DVD's if I had them and felt so strongly about Borg. If there is a use of "triaxillate" in VOY or ENT which is not related to waves...

Also, is there a real meaning for the word triaxillate? Seems to be a semantic war here .

Brian

[drachefly]

Well, I was busy trying to constrain the meaning of the word...

Batman: I will repeat myself, since you didn't pay attention the first time:

Borg shields use waves. Therefore, if they change anything about these shields as an adaptation to any weapon, this will almost certainly involve doing something which involves wave mechanics. Therefore, the Borg using things that involve wave mechanics when adapting to things does not in any way indicate that they can only adapt to frequency-based weapons.

However, an argument could be made that the 'adaptation' phenomenon always relies on freaky wave mechanic behavior, manipulating boundary conditions or something; and that non-frequency-based attacks would thus not be adaptable.

A retort could be made that all attacks HAVE a frequency (based on the DeBroglie wavelength), even if the designers did not consider it important.

A retort to that could be that the wavelengths of ordinary objects like bullets are so ridiculously small that the Borg manipulating frequencies on that level is patently ridiculous.

Alternately, a Borg defender could argue that non-frequency-based attacks have a low-frequency matter wave interpretation (instead of a quantum packet interpretation), and so adaptation would still apply.

A retort to that would be that wave coupling in the low-frequency limit is generally very poor.

[Robert Walper]

Well, I was busy trying to constrain the meaning of the word...

Batman: I will repeat myself, since you didn't pay attention the first time:

Borg shields use waves. Therefore, if they change anything about these shields as an adaptation to any weapon, this will almost certainly involve doing something which involves wave mechanics. Therefore, the Borg using things that involve wave mechanics when adapting to things does not in any way indicate that they can only adapt to frequency-based weapons.

However, an argument could be made that the 'adaptation' phenomenon always relies on freaky wave mechanic behavior, manipulating boundary conditions or something; and that non-frequency-based attacks would thus not be adaptable.

A retort could be made that all attacks HAVE a frequency (based on the DeBroglie wavelength), even if the designers did not consider it important.

A retort to that could be that the wavelengths of ordinary objects like bullets are so ridiculously small that the Borg manipulating frequencies on that level is patently ridiculous.

Alternately, a Borg defender could argue that non-frequency-based attacks have a low-frequency matter wave interpretation (instead of a quantum packet interpretation), and so adaptation would still apply.

A retort to that would be that wave coupling in the low-frequency limit is generally very poor.

On that note, the Borg have had no problem employing forcefield/shield technology that actually does stop physical objects anyway. Worf's charge at Locutus (ref STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"), containing a running andriod (ref ST: FC), Janeway's attempt to grap assimilated Tuvok and a Borg drone charging the Queen (ref STVOY "Unimatrix Zero").

Not that we've seen a typical drone employ a shield that stops a physical object though.

[Stark]

Come on; 'shield geometry' could refer to any manner of shield characteristics that exist to take advantage of phase-coherent weaponry (distance between shield layers=wavelength, anyone?) Changing shield geometry doesn't just mean 'make like a box' or 'make like a circle'; how do we know they're not talking about something totally different, like some characteristic of the shield 'surface' itself? Is Robert seriously suggesting they defeated all these weapons by making their shields a funny shape?

[Howedar]

In each of the other cases listed, 'triaxillate' does indeed involve frequencies (or wavelengths, close enough). However, it seems to be a rather more complicated issue than simply changing the frequency, which is a scalar.

What does it do?
1) make signals longer-ranged (example 2)
2) make signals less traceable (examples 5, 6)

Both of these aspects can be explained with frequency shifts. Shorter wavelengths do not penetrate shit as well as long wavelengths - that's why we use radio telescopes to see the innards of nebulae instead of visible light. Using a frequency that an opponent does not often see can lead to a less detectable signal. Alternately, changing the frequency could lower the power necessary to achieve a mission, making the difference between that signal and backround radiation lower.

[SirNitram]

Walper, since you feel so strongly about this, what I would do is insist on the source of the "triaxillate" words or confirm them myself. I did a quick search through all the available official scripts of TNG and DS9 with different spellings of "triaxillate", and found nothing. ENT and VOY scripts are not readily available through the internet I believe. I would pop in DVD's if I had them and felt so strongly about Borg. If there is a use of "triaxillate" in VOY or ENT which is not related to waves...

Also, is there a real meaning for the word triaxillate? Seems to be a semantic war here .

Brian

I see your literacy is lacking. This thread contanis canon usage of the phrase in Voyager. Every instance involves frequencies. Further, I have shown the weapon being adapted to IS frequency-based in nature.

Don't post this bullshit when it's already been addressed.