Warp Speed, how fast is it?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-11-21 05:10pm

An essay on the apparent warp drive speed discrepancies

Throughout Trek we have noted on multiple occasions that ships appear to be traveling at very high FTL rates with warp drives at certain times while at other times it takes then considerable time to travel great distances.

Perhaps the simplest example of this is how Starfleet ships are apparently able to traverse the span of the Federation in seemingly short periods of time while ships like Voyager (with one of the fastest warp drives) will take an estimated 70 years to reach home. How does one make sense of these apparent contradictions?

Well there is another way of looking at warp use. Today we have the capability of having aircraft travel at very high speeds. However in order to travel this fast the aircraft use up much larger quantities of fuel and in effect can not travel as long of a distance without having to refuel. Now lets apply this idea to Trek.

When we see Starfleet ships apparently traveling between points of the Federation within short periods of time these ships are in friendly territory and can refuel their anti-matter supply with relative ease. The same goes for traveling through friendly and allied territory (ie Klingons). However, if you travel outside of friendly territory you do not have access to refueling resources near as readily. Because of this when you leave friendly territory for exploration or military purposes your speed will be more limited by fuel efficiency.

This actually explains several aspects we have noticed in Trek. In the VGR episode “Equinox” we note that a Nova class science vessel is capable of traveling at very high speeds if it has a stable power source. The power source is not said to make the ship travel faster. Rather the power source allows the Equinox to travel at its maximum safe speed because it has plenty of power at its disposal. Voyager, an Intrepid class ship with a higher top speed is not capable of traveling far distances because they do not have a stable and apparently limitless supply of energy.

This concept is also supported by the Dominion War in DS9. With the need to establish fuel lines and resources for an advancing fleet you can not advance into enemy space very rapidly. You need to secure important locations and fuel sources, then continue to advance in a leap frog pattern. This was done by both the Dominion and the FKR Alliance. Those apparently useless strategic assets were not as useless as they seemed. They become important fuel locations and weapon stockpiles for the forward fleets.

The top safe speed of your typical Starfleet ship is actually quite fast. However, these ships can not maintain that speed for very long because they will run out of fuel. In friendly space these fast speeds can be used to travel fast, but when going into unfriendly/uncharted space you have to use more economical speeds.

Now one final thing to consider. The Equinox expected to get home rather rapidly using its new power source. If someone can find me a quote of their expected arrival home we can create a max speed for Starfleet warp drive (conservative given we know there are faster ships) with proper fuel sources.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-11-21 07:01pm

RANSOM: We examined the remains and discovered it could be converted to enhance our propulsion systems. It was already dead. What would you have done? We travelled over ten thousand light years in less than two weeks.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-11-21 07:11pm

Holyshit...

Ok, lets just call that 10,000 in two weeks.

That means 14 weeks to reach home.

This means that max safe warp speed is damned fast.

Actualy this makes sense. Ships like the Enterprise appeared to be able to cross the Federation fairly fast.

Hmm, maybe its safer to assume the Nova class is faster then most Starfleet ships.

FedRebel · Post by **FedRebel** » 2004-11-21 07:22pm

Alyeska wrote: This means that max safe warp speed is damned fast.

Actualy this makes sense. Ships like the Enterprise appeared to be able to cross the Federation fairly fast.

Too bad Fed ships are gas guzzlers

Hmm, maybe its safer to assume the Nova class is faster then most Starfleet ships.

Slower, It's maximium warp faactor is warp 8

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2004-11-21 08:20pm

Alyeska wrote:Ok, lets just call that 10,000 in two weeks.

Alright.

Alyeska wrote:This means that max safe warp speed is damned fast.

Using Bulirsch-Stoer extrapolation on the table found here, the warp factor for this speed is 9.9997685 ± 5e-7. This assumes the above speed figure is correct to two significant digits, which is probably more than it deserves. However, it is a good lower bound.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-11-21 08:31pm

Actualy the Nova is slower then most Starfleet ships. It had a max speed of something like Warp Eight and was designed for short range missions, probably inside Federation space. It really appears to be a replacement for the Oberth.

Now that said, the warp drive on the Equinox was completly redesigned. Well at least the warp core. It wasn't a Dilithium-Antimatter thing anymore, they didn't even have any Dilithium left. It simply appeared to be able to maintain maximum levels of power to the warp nacelles as long as they had fuel to burn.

Conversly, the E-D could only maintain maximum speeds, even later in her life with upgrades, for periods of hours or even minuites at times. And there are some glaring speed issues in TNG. Given how warp speed wildly varies from episode to episode, they simply can't keep it consistent. Though DS9 and Voyager are generaly more in line.

One interesting note is warp field dynamics. And how the newer starships various shapes make them more efficent at higher warp speeds. Voyager of course with her variable nacelles was one of the first, but the newer designs like the Sovereign class (and possibly the Nova) don't need them. The Defiant for example is highly inefficent. In The Sound Of her Voice its mentioned that simply going above Warp 9 for extended periods requires massive power boosts to the SIF field. Which is why generaly Sisko only orders Warp 8. So despite its power, the Defiant isn't actualy that fast.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-11-21 08:35pm

One more note Alyeska. In the episode "The Chase", the Enterprise transverses long distances in it's pursuit of the DNA "puzzle" that reveals the common ancestor of the humanoid form of life. At the end of this episode, Picard makes mention the Enterprise must recieve significant maintenance to her warp drive, as they really taxed the engines during their trips that apparently crossed some very large distances during their DNA sample collecting spree.

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-21 09:28pm

Robert Walper wrote:One more note Alyeska. In the episode "The Chase", the Enterprise transverses long distances in it's pursuit of the DNA "puzzle" that reveals the common ancestor of the humanoid form of life. At the end of this episode, Picard makes mention the Enterprise must recieve significant maintenance to her warp drive, as they really taxed the engines during their trips that apparently crossed some very large distances during their DNA sample collecting spree.

Ah, but the Enterprise D was a Galaxy class ship, which as we know from various canon examples, those ships never had the most stable and reliable Warp Drives. We can assume it had one of the more efficient, but even then, it never held it's maximum attaintable Warp Speed for the stated duration 9.6 for 12 hours, and any speed above warp 9.6 was held for minutes only, causing damage to the drive system, however minor that may be.

It would be safer to say the newer Federation Starships, taking advantage of newer warp field geometry and core designs, are able to attain far higher warp speeds with sufficient and more effecient fuel sources. Perhaps even that newer Starships are equipped with a Warp Drive design which can take advantage of newer sources of energy, besides Matter/Antimatter annihilation, to improve performance. Perhaps the other modification that needs to be made would be rerouting more power to the SIF for the added stress higher warp speeds will create upon the hull (though the newer, more compact designs should be able to handle these stresses better than the Galaxy class could.)

In speculation, considering the Equinox, I see the only limitation on current Federation Warp Speeds, is the need to find a more efficient fuel source. If a small science ship designed for no higher than Warp 8 (1,024c) can with a efficient enough fuel source, suddenly undergo the stresses of many hundreds of times that speed (in excess of 199,516c), then this theory is at least somewhat plausible

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2004-11-21 09:49pm

Is there any information on warp numbers below 1? A warp bubble would not need to be superluminal; in fact, it seems like a fair idea for a 'reactionless' drive. In particular, is it canon (or in-novel) that "warp 0" (in the appropriate limit, at least) corresponds to zero speed?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-11-21 10:04pm

The Motion Picture had the Enterprise going at warp at sub FTL speeds.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2004-11-21 10:08pm

Alyeska wrote:The Motion Picture had the Enterprise going at warp at sub FTL speeds.

Does it give warp rating and corresponding speed?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-11-21 10:09pm

Warp point numbers. Like Warp .8

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2004-11-21 10:13pm

Alyeska wrote:Warp point numbers. Like Warp .8

If it was the first movie, this would be the TOS era, and IIRC this scale was power of two. This means warp 0 would be speed of light, and warp 0.8 would be about 1.75c. What about the TNG era, where the speed of light is warp 1?

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-21 10:24pm

Kuroneko wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Warp point numbers. Like Warp .8
If it was the first movie, this would be the TOS era, and IIRC this scale was power of two. This means warp 0 would be speed of light, and warp 0.8 would be about 1.75c. What about the TNG era, where the speed of light is warp 1?

Warp 1 TNG Era Scale is C, or Speed of Light

Lower than that, is Impulse, and Impulse in the TNG time, andcannot go beyond C.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-11-21 10:25pm

Incorrect. We have seen Impulse go FTL before. Furthermore we have seen Warp go below FTL.

Kuroneko · Post by **Kuroneko** » 2004-11-21 10:43pm

To clarify my original question, I'm looking for information for warp numbers less than one specifically in the TNG warp rating system.

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-21 10:47pm

Alyeska wrote:Incorrect. We have seen Impulse go FTL before. Furthermore we have seen Warp go below FTL.

When have we seen these since the Inseption of the TNG scale?

I watched both DS9 and TNG (and some of Voyager...) and never once have I seen Warp Drive go at STL velocities, and the Impulse Drive bring a ship to FTL speeds.

TOS scale is different, as the Warp speed calcs where different then.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-11-21 10:49pm

DarkSilver wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Incorrect. We have seen Impulse go FTL before. Furthermore we have seen Warp go below FTL.
When have we seen these since the Inseption of the TNG scale?

I watched both DS9 and TNG (and some of Voyager...) and never once have I seen Warp Drive go at STL velocities, and the Impulse Drive bring a ship to FTL speeds.

TOS scale is different, as the Warp speed calcs where different then.

Warp is never used at STL because its not needed. The only reason we saw it in TOS was because they were babying the warp engines and trying to push FTL without causing damage. In TNG "Best of Both Worlds pt2" we see the Enterprise leave warp and arrive at Saturn. It is given an intercept to the Borg cube in less then 30 minutes which was last spotted at Mars. In order to traverse that distance, they have to go FTL with their Impulse engines.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-11-21 10:57pm

Alyeska wrote: Warp is never used at STL because its not needed. The only reason we saw it in TOS was because they were babying the warp engines and trying to push FTL without causing damage. In TNG "Best of Both Worlds pt2" we see the Enterprise leave warp and arrive at Saturn. It is given an intercept to the Borg cube in less then 30 minutes which was last spotted at Mars. In order to traverse that distance, they have to go FTL with their Impulse engines.

No no, you got it all wrong Alyeska. The ability to go FTL with their impulse engines is a pretty useful and impressive technology, thus we must concede that anyone reading off those figures in Trek is a idiot (TM).

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-21 11:29pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Warp is never used at STL because its not needed. The only reason we saw it in TOS was because they were babying the warp engines and trying to push FTL without causing damage. In TNG "Best of Both Worlds pt2" we see the Enterprise leave warp and arrive at Saturn. It is given an intercept to the Borg cube in less then 30 minutes which was last spotted at Mars. In order to traverse that distance, they have to go FTL with their Impulse engines.
No no, you got it all wrong Alyeska. The ability to go FTL with their impulse engines is a pretty useful and impressive technology, thus we must concede that anyone reading off those figures in Trek is a idiot (TM).

I'm simply stating I've never seen it done so. That intercept could have included a brief in system warp jump, but for a STL drive system to push them *beyond* the speed of light, boogles my mind. What happened to Einstien? Would not Relativity step in at this point, since the Impulse Drives operates in Real Space? What about the need for near infinite energy to reach Light Speeds due to mass increase? there's only so much a mass lightening system could take I'd assume, even ones such as Star Trek or Star Wars has.

How can a Sublight Drive system push a Ship Faster Than Light, bypassing Einstienian Relativity. If a Sublight Drive can do that, then why even bother with the FTL drive in the first place?

**edited to fix spelling error**

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-11-21 11:48pm

DarkSilver wrote: I'm simply stating I've never seen it done so. That intercept could have included a brief in system warp jump, but for a STL drive system to push them *beyond* the speed of light, boogles my mind. What happened to Einstien? Would not Relativity step in at this point, since the Impulse Drives operates in Real Space? What about the need for near infinite energy to reach Light Speeds due to mass increase? there's only so much a mass lightening system could take I'd assume, even ones such as Star Trek or Star Wars has.

How can a Sublight Drive system push a Ship Faster Than Light, bypassing Einstienian Relativity. If a Sublight Drive can do that, then why even bother with the FTL drive in the first place?

**edited to fix spelling error**

Wesley never said the time estimate was bassed on going back to warp. Had they wanted to catch it that quickly they would have stayed in warp. Furthermore they could have warped in at a much faster speed if they were going to use Warp. Wesley gave a time estimate while they were traveling out of warp. His estimate was bassed on their staying out of warp.

Relativity doesn't come into play here. Impulse can just as easily have FTL capabilities at Warp. Both are fictional drive systems.

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-21 11:52pm

Alyeska wrote: Wesley never said the time estimate was bassed on going back to warp. Had they wanted to catch it that quickly they would have stayed in warp. Furthermore they could have warped in at a much faster speed if they were going to use Warp. Wesley gave a time estimate while they were traveling out of warp. His estimate was bassed on their staying out of warp.

Relativity doesn't come into play here. Impulse can just as easily have FTL capabilities at Warp. Both are fictional drive systems.

Point conceded Alyeska

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-11-22 12:05am

Enterprise introduced subspace corridors in season 3, which can apparently allow ships to travel long distances much more quickly than warp (or, at least, more quickly than the NX-01's warp drive.) It's possible that the Feds have mapped out a number of these within their territory.

Questor · Post by **Questor** » 2004-11-22 12:07am

Drooling Iguana wrote:Enterprise introduced subspace corridors in season 3, which can apparently allow ships to travel long distances much more quickly than warp (or, at least, more quickly than the NX-01's warp drive.) It's possible that the Feds have mapped out a number of these within their territory.

I think these were speculated about a while ago as an explanation for TFF.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2004-11-22 12:20am

Drooling Iguana wrote:

Enterprise introduced subspace corridors in season 3, which can apparently allow ships to travel long distances much more quickly than warp (or, at least, more quickly than the NX-01's warp drive.) It's possible that the Feds have mapped out a number of these within their territory.

hasnt anyone stated to you that enterprise is not considered canon trek.