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I partialy agree with him. Gene's vision of humans exploring space because it is there was wonderful. Unlike many other shows where humans are forced to enter space by other factors.

However I disagree with other aspects of his vision of future society. No money or personal property rights isnt a future I would like to live in. Being a muslim another aspect I dislike is the lack of religon in UFP society.

A few thousand years of civilization is a thin cloak against millions of years of evolution.

That Utopia is one ideology or invention or discovery away is something that have never worked in all of human history so I see no reason why aliens and warpdrives should change that.

I got the impression that it was the warp drive, aliens, but it was the after-effects of World War Three that made humans think of peace before war. With the probable tech sharing between the two races, it's not inconceivable. As for the society, with the advent of replicators, money's value decreases significantly since the essentials for living can now be replicated so there is now enough for everybody no matter how anyone looks at it.

The Shadow wrote:No money or personal property rights isnt a future I would like to live in.

No property rights?

Kirk owned that cabin, Benjamins father owned a resturant, several people has owned ships in TOS, TNG and DS9.

Gustav32Vasa wrote:

The Shadow wrote:No money or personal property rights isnt a future I would like to live in.

No property rights?

Kirk owned that cabin, Benjamins father owned a resturant, several people has owned ships in TOS, TNG and DS9.

Simple property. And few have owned a personal starship.

There's a difference between TOS and TNG/DS9.

Stofsk wrote:There's a difference between TOS and TNG/DS9.

There is?

I know taht TOS is classical but I thought that all three series were canon.

Gustav32Vasa wrote:

Stofsk wrote:There's a difference between TOS and TNG/DS9.

There is?

I know taht TOS is classical but I thought that all three series were canon.

No that's not the point. TOS was written from a different mindset, and from a different perspective from the writers. TNG was much MUCH different.

An example: on the TOS Enterprise, there were no kids. On the TNG Enterprise, and in DS9, they have civilians - families - on their warships.

Another example: in TOS they had no delusions about being a military; they may be in the business of exploring, but part of their duty was to patrol and defend the Federation. You get episodes like "A Private Little War" with its clear Vietnam War reference.

In TNG, they seemed to have an identity crisis - tools like Riker thought tactical training was a waste of time, and Starfleet was referred to as a non-military organisation. The two eras are fundamentally different.

Stofsk wrote:Another example: in TOS they had no delusions about being a military; they may be in the business of exploring, but part of their duty was to patrol and defend the Federation. You get episodes like "A Private Little War" with its clear Vietnam War reference.

In TNG, they seemed to have an identity crisis - tools like Riker thought tactical training was a waste of time, and Starfleet was referred to as a non-military organisation. The two eras are fundamentally different.

That is because the UFP has not faced any real threats since Khitomer.

In Star Trek VI

A MILITARY MAN wrote: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?

CinC
I'm sure our exploration and
science programs would not be
affected, but the facts speak for
themselves, Captain.

Its clear that efter the peace with the Klingons and the withdraw of the Romulans the Federation no longer need to be so militant. They adjust and concentrates on the science and exploraion part of Star Fleet. Riker who was at the Accedemy during this time doesnt know any better.

Gustav32Vasa wrote:That is because the UFP has not faced any real threats since Khitomer.

So what? The US Military is supreme in the world, but do they rest on their laurels and stop holding battle drills? Fuck no.

Its clear that efter the peace with the Klingons and the withdraw of the Romulans the Federation no longer need to be so militant. They adjust and concentrates on the science and exploraion part of Star Fleet. Riker who was at the Accedemy during this time doesnt know any better.

Riker is a fuck wit. For Starfleet to stop its military dimension was foolhardy and irresponsible. And it was a large part due to Gene's 'vision'.

Stofsk wrote:

Its clear that efter the peace with the Klingons and the withdraw of the Romulans the Federation no longer need to be so militant. They adjust and concentrates on the science and exploraion part of Star Fleet. Riker who was at the Accedemy during this time doesnt know any better.

Riker is a fuck wit. For Starfleet to stop its military dimension was foolhardy and irresponsible. And it was a large part due to Gene's 'vision'.

Of course it was I'm just explaning why it happened.

Picards reservations about practising 'War Games' made me piss. How on Earth do they train their crew to deal with these situations, it's clear Picard never was, if that's how he reacts to something like that being introduced.

As Stofsk points out, when an 'organisation' or such dominates, they in no way withdraw entirely the whole division capable of defending and upholding that domination.

Whatever happened post TUC and pre-TNG turned the Fed's into a mushed up piece of communist (though I prefer to think of them as socialists ) shit.

I think TNG massively suffered from being written and introduced during a time when the western nations had become so pedantic about political correctness and such, modern 'values'- so much so that even in 7 seasons of DS9, 7 seasons of Voyager and the movies, they couldn't recover from the silly arse mistakes written into TNG. (Even though again, bad writing contributes massively also)

The Shadow wrote:I partialy agree with him. Gene's vision of humans exploring space because it is there was wonderful. Unlike many other shows where humans are forced to enter space by other factors.

It doesn't make very much sense, though. I can't think of a single historical example of any nation doing exploration just for the sake of exploration. There is always another, better reason. It's all well and good for an individual to climb the tallest mountain just to say he did it, but it's a bad way to go about doing something as vital as space exploration and colonization, especially in a galaxy as threatening as the ST Milky Way.

You can almost see hints of the failure of this perspective. The Klingons go from seeking Federation aid in Star Trek VI to being the dominant military power in the Alpha and Beta quadrants in DS9; the Romulans gain large amounts of ground on the Federation over the same period.

Sorry, individual human beings may climb a mountain "because it's there", but no government is going to underwrite the expense of exploratory expeditions for the pure sake of exploring —they're looking for new trading routes, seeking out what enemies might be around, seeking easy conquests, or hunting for resources and living space. Often, at least three of these objectives are merged to one extent or another.

If we beleive Gene's vision is the TNG Federation, no.

But then again, sometimes I suspect the godlike being that showed naught but contempt for the Federation might have been the true voice. Come on, if you're going to say what you want about Humanity, why not do it through Q, a near-god?

I like a lot about the NG vision. No povery, no war between humans at all, if I thought it might work then having to wear my pajamas all day and not technically own my stuff would be a small price to pay.

Unfortunately I doubt it would work quite like that, But I think it's a nice dream.

If the question refers to the vision of mankind becoming better people somehow due to new technology, I do not believe in that. I would love to know what exactly changed, but from what I've seen, everything that's different on Star Trek is simply a larger-scale version of things that have happened many times in history.

If the question refers to the vision of mankind exploring space rather than dying out on this planet, I agree. We have to grow up and move on eventually, or we will stagnate and die. I don't believe we will do so as a united world, nor that such a condition is necessary. We explored Earth as separate nations, and will almost certainly explore space as separate nations. As on Earth, the communities we establish on other worlds will eventually become independent and some will explore further.

I agree with Stofsk's argument that the idea that the Federation faced no major threats after the Khitomer Accords, and so wouldn't need to focus on military training for Starfleet, is hard to believe. Even after Khitomer, even up to the Dominion War, the Federation-Klingon relationship was clearly unstable. In fact, they were still negotiating with each other decades later (indicated in "Loud as a Whisper" and "Blood Oath"). At times, like when Enterprise-C fought at Narendra III, it was on such a knife's edge that one ship's actions could tip the balance between war and peace. Also, the year before the Dominion War began in earnest, the Klingons flushed their treaty over a disagreement about Cardassia and invaded a Federation sector, all with the Dominion looking on. Basically, Khitomer didn't fix everything for the Federation. In addition, for over 20 years after Khitomer, the Romulans were still a threat, and after their apparent withdrawal, they could make a comeback any time. The Federation fought a war with Cardassia and had at least one violent encounter with the Ferengi (in which the Stargazer was so damaged she had to be abandoned) in the decade or so before the Enterprise-D was commissioned.

I think no war or poverty is plausible, as well unified earth and massive space exploration. . but I expect society will be more like bab5 style then st.

Didn't the Federation fight a major war with Cardassia just before TNG?

SirNitram wrote:But then again, sometimes I suspect the godlike being that showed naught but contempt for the Federation might have been the true voice. Come on, if you're going to say what you want about Humanity, why not do it through Q, a near-god?

Q came off as too much of super powered child playing with the universe most of the time for me to believe he was meant to be Gene Roddenbury's voice. Also, Q contradicted himself occasionally. In the early episode where he gave Riker the power of the Q, he was trying to neutralize the threat humanity posed to the Q. By the final episode of TNG, he'd taken on the role of teacher.

Drooling Iguana wrote:Didn't the Federation fight a major war with Cardassia just before TNG?

I think it happened in the 2350s. IIRC that war lead to the DMZ.

I agree with Gene's vision, and I share much of it, but I don't believe it.
What Startrek is about is something I dream of, but I have few illusions about human nature. His world is better IMHO, but no more real than phasers, transporting or Data.

Nope...it's fantastic fantasy and used to provide excellent story material, but in the end, far too much utopian love.

Also his world has the problem of being literally sterile after a certain point, and for my taster the only reason TOS did so well...is simply because it wasn't 100% Gene's vision. TNG was that and yeech people were practically neutered.

You oughta read The Making of Star Trek"; you'll find Roddenbury's true vision(at least when he made TOS) was . . . "wagon train to the Star-ish." In fact, I believe those were the EXACT words he used to pitch it.

Other than that, just VERY skimpy female costumes.

Guardsman Bass wrote:You oughta read The Making of Star Trek"; you'll find Roddenbury's true vision(at least when he made TOS) was . . . "wagon train to the Star-ish." In fact, I believe those were the EXACT words he used to pitch it.

Other than that, just VERY skimpy female costumes.

Hell I've read his and Harlan's version of the tale.

All in all...the absolute best thing to come from Trek?

In the future Women will be wearing Miniskirts and ultra tight shirts as a part of military uniform.

Trogdor wrote:
Q came off as too much of super powered child playing with the universe most of the time for me to believe he was meant to be Gene Roddenbury's voice. Also, Q contradicted himself occasionally. In the early episode where he gave Riker the power of the Q, he was trying to neutralize the threat humanity posed to the Q. By the final episode of TNG, he'd taken on the role of teacher.

it isn't contradicting yourself if something comes along to change your mind about your present actions. There's also the possibility that 'acting as a judge' was a setup to see how mankind would react, and using it to teach them lessons, then coming across as a more of a teacher-like aspect as things progress. Course, given all the stuff that happened to Q, notably losing his powers and immortality, it wouldn't be that surprising that he'd change his viewpoint later on.