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I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:

When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.

Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?


Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...

AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:

When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.

Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?


Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...

Torpedoes can't move FTL. You know it's impossible to go at lightspeed in real space, right?

You would need something like a shaped charge to direct the blast, something I would imagine to be hard to design out of a M/AM bomb.

StarshipTitanic wrote:

AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:

When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.

Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?


Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...

Torpedoes can't move FTL. You know it's impossible to go at lightspeed in real space, right?

Actualy we have visual evidence that they can. TNG Half a Life.

Alyeska wrote:

StarshipTitanic wrote:

AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:

When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.

Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?


Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...

Torpedoes can't move FTL. You know it's impossible to go at lightspeed in real space, right?

Actualy we have visual evidence that they can. TNG Half a Life.

Just a nitpick, but that can't be right. Nothing can move at the speed of light in real space, period -- that pesky special relativity again. If it moves at the speed of light or faster, and it has mass, it's in some other medium. Clearly, a torpedo has mass, and if it has some means of going FTL, that's great, but it can't do it in real space.

SCRawl wrote: Just a nitpick, but that can't be right. Nothing can move at the speed of light in real space, period -- that pesky special relativity again. If it moves at the speed of light or faster, and it has mass, it's in some other medium. Clearly, a torpedo has mass, and if it has some means of going FTL, that's great, but it can't do it in real space.

Too bad Trek ship under Warp do it all the time.
Trek ships fire torps at one another at Warp speed, therefore the torpedoes are able to maintain Warp speed, if not achieve it on their own. Therefore, torpedoes can very clearly move FTL.
Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.

Alyeska wrote:Actualy we have visual evidence that they can. TNG Half a Life.

Actually, visual evidence from "Half A Life" clearly shows the torpedo as much less than the speed of light. THe FTL stuff comes from dialogue about the torpedo crossing a distance really quickly. However, the problem is that the distance given is highly suspect, because not only were they watching it on cameras in real time, but the effects of the nova were immediately visible and a dangerous threat to the Enterprise, indicating they were quite close to the star due to the lack of light lag.

ST & SCR: realspace FTL is a part of Star Trek. Whether it's possible IRL or not is completely irrelevant to this thread.

Batman wrote:Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.

Care to elaborate?

AMX wrote:ST & SCR: realspace FTL is a part of Star Trek. Whether it's possible IRL or not is completely irrelevant to this thread.

the books aren't canon, however. thus not acceptable evidence. from everything that's been shown on screen the enterprise 'wraps' subspace around it permitting FTL, via the warp field.

Batman wrote:Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.

Care to elaborate?

a torpedo going at warp or otherwise is still only going to deliver 50% of its power in terms of damage. due to the simple fact that half the spherical explosion will be going away from the target.

Darth_Zod wrote:a torpedo going at warp or otherwise is still only going to deliver 50% of its power in terms of damage. due to the simple fact that half the spherical explosion will be going away from the target.

Yes, but at a speed not greater than the speed of light.
If the whole thing is moving FTL, the result is a movement towards the target (although only until the warp field finishes collapsing).

*tries to think of a useable analogy*

Say, you're throwing a stone out the back of a fast-moving car; maybe the stone is flying away from you at some twenty mph; but the car is moving more than a hundred mph in the other direction, so, to a not moving observer, the stone will be moving at about eighty mph in the same direction as the car.

Am I making myself unclear?

Darth_Zod wrote:

Batman wrote:Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.

Care to elaborate?

a torpedo going at warp or otherwise is still only going to deliver 50% of its power in terms of damage. due to the simple fact that half the spherical explosion will be going away from the target.

I think what AMX is getting at is while half the explosion is heading away from the target at c, until the final collapse of the warp field the entirety of the explosion is still moving towards the target at multiples of c.
Problems:
1. The field will collapse the instant the explosion is triggered, what with the torpedo being disintegrated.
2. Even if it didn't, the energy would slow to c the moment it left the warp field of the torpedo (which I doubt is more than a few metres across)
3. Even if the explosion somehow maintained its FTL speed, only the part of it directly conforming to the target shillouette would impact it, the rest would pass harmlessly around it. The increase in energy delivered would be minuscule.

Batman wrote:I think what AMX is getting at is while half the explosion is heading away from the target at c, until the final collapse of the warp field the entirety of the explosion is still moving towards the target at multiples of c.

Exactly.

Problems:
1. The field will collapse the instant the explosion is triggered, what with the torpedo being disintegrated.

I dimly remember something about "warp bubbles" that remained intact on their own for considerable amounts of time ... but you're probably right.

2. Even if it didn't, the energy would slow to c the moment it left the warp field of the torpedo (which I doubt is more than a few metres across)

Point.

3. Even if the explosion somehow maintained its FTL speed, only the part of it directly conforming to the target shillouette would impact it, the rest would pass harmlessly around it. The increase in energy delivered would be minuscule.

Uh - yes, I think.

To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?

AMX wrote: To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?

Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.

Batman wrote:

SCRawl wrote: Just a nitpick, but that can't be right. Nothing can move at the speed of light in real space, period -- that pesky special relativity again. If it moves at the speed of light or faster, and it has mass, it's in some other medium. Clearly, a torpedo has mass, and if it has some means of going FTL, that's great, but it can't do it in real space.

Too bad Trek ship under Warp do it all the time.
Trek ships fire torps at one another at Warp speed, therefore the torpedoes are able to maintain Warp speed, if not achieve it on their own. Therefore, torpedoes can very clearly move FTL.
Doesn't do beans about the delivered yield, though.

But that's at WARP, in a WARP FIELD, not in REAL SPACE. Read the post before you criticize.

AMX wrote:I was just reading the "Federation Torpedoes" page, when I had a possibly stupid idea:

When a torpedo explodes, at least 50% of the energy released are directed away from the target.
Even the radiation heading directly away will "only" move at the speed of light.
Now, if the torpedo was moving FTL, and if its warp field takes a moment to collapse, the explosion will still be moving towards the target at FTL speed, so even the energy that would normally be wasted should hit it.

Anyone care to point out the flaws in that idea?


Um, hi. New guy here. Hope I'm not making a too bad first impression...

That would not apply in normal space battles, only if the firing ship was at warp.

However, one thought that struck me- we know that torps have nav shields. What if those shields actually direct the energy forward? Just a random thought.

StarshipTitanic wrote:

AMX wrote: To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?

Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.

@AMX:Right.
@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?

As for getting more than 50% could they attempt to do what they do in The Shiva Option when making a shaped AMX.

dragon wrote:As for getting more than 50% could they attempt to do what they do in The Shiva Option when making a shaped AMX.

A M/AM shaped charge? This I gotta see.

I have the book on digital I think I'll try to find the passage. It had to do with wraping the device in a high strength containment field. As soon as I find it Ill post.

Ok I seem to have misplaced my book and the digital copy is corrupt. Anyways what they did is wrap the weaponin a high strength mag field that decayed on one side before the other did. But do to the energy of the explosion the second side lasted on a few nanosecs longer than the other side.

Batman wrote:

StarshipTitanic wrote:

AMX wrote: To summarize: The torpedo would have to move at incredibly high speed, so the energy doesn't have time to leave the warp field before hitting the target, and even then, the idea hinges on whether or not the warp field actually remains active after the explosion at all.
Right?

Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.

@AMX:Right.
@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?

Attach a warp drive to it?

Praxis wrote:

Why not just fling warp cores at the enemy? It'll be cheaper than building warp torpedoes.

@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?

Attach a warp drive to it?

Which however sort of nixes the cheapness aspect...

EDITed to fix quoting tags.Grr..

Batman wrote:

Praxis wrote:

@StarshipTitanic: How, pray tell, do you accellerate the Warp core to Warp speed?

Attach a warp drive to it?

Which however sort of nixes the cheapness aspect...

EDITed to fix quoting tags.Grr..

Yeah but it should take out the enemy ship in one shot Alot cheaper than repairing or replacing your ship after a battle. Considering the impact of the explosion in Generations, you could probably take out a sizable chunk of a fleet with that. Imagine that they launched their warp cores at the Dominion fleet in "Sacrifice of Angels"...they would have sent LOADS of Jem'Hadar fighters flying, and torn apart any ship it directly impacted.

Torpedoes can move at FTL speed as seen in warp speed combat where torpedoes have been fired.

However torpedoes dont really move at FTL. They warp space to move at FTL. The moment the warp field collapses the light is going to speed away in the opposite directon without hitting the target.

The Shadow wrote:Torpedoes can move at FTL speed as seen in warp speed combat where torpedoes have been fired.

However torpedoes dont really move at FTL. They warp space to move at FTL. The moment the warp field collapses the light is going to speed away in the opposite directon without hitting the target.

Thank you for your contribution. I think we know that by now.

Let me restate my point, just in case:
"If the FTL speed is maintained after the torpedo explodes, even the light headed away from the target will be carried towards it (and possibly hit it) by the not yet completely collapsed warp field."

Do you happen to know how long it takes a warp field to collapse after the drive has been vaporized?