Tac Fighters

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2004-09-20 11:32am

Having managed to miss all the episodes in which it appears, I'm completely unfamiliar with the Tac Fighter, but I've seen it mentioned in numerous threads here.

Just what makes people think this fighter--I assume it's Star Trek's answer to the X-wing--is potentially useful enough to warrant carriers and such being fielded for it in the Star Trek universe? Is it that much better armed/shielded/more manueverable than the shuttlecraft, which don't seem to be effective attackers against a starship?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-20 11:44am

Kerneth wrote:Having managed to miss all the episodes in which it appears, I'm completely unfamiliar with the Tac Fighter, but I've seen it mentioned in numerous threads here.

Just what makes people think this fighter--I assume it's Star Trek's answer to the X-wing--is potentially useful enough to warrant carriers and such being fielded for it in the Star Trek universe? Is it that much better armed/shielded/more manueverable than the shuttlecraft, which don't seem to be effective attackers against a starship?

Assuming this tac fighter is the same thing that Sisko used in Sacrifice of Angels, I'd say they're VERY effective. It only took a couple passes for a few fighters to break down a Galor's shields. And the Cardies and Dominion had a very hard time hitting them.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-20 11:51am

Here's the only pic of a Peregrin tactical fighter that I've got, so you know what it looks like.

For that matter, I also managed to miss every episode in which it actually appears...

Edit: I originally obtained the pic when Alyeska posted it in A&P.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-09-20 11:56am

Is it just me, or is that thing damn ugly? It does look serviceable enough, though... what's the armor on that thing like? Armaments? Warp capability? Can it operate independently?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-20 12:00pm

Elheru Aran wrote:Is it just me, or is that thing damn ugly?

So's the Y-wing.

As for the rest, search me. All I know is secondhand descriptions on the board about four of them taking out a Cardassian Galor.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-20 12:11pm

That's the one from Sacrifice of Angels. They damage several Galor's WITHOUT support from capital ships, then cause the Cardassian oversized Hideki fighters to break formation and chase them off, then the capital ships move through.

Cardy and Dominion ships seem to have a weakness against fighters- they can't seem to hit them, and the pulse phasers tear right through their shields really quickly. I saw several Galor's on fire.

However, there weren't that many fighters. A couple Star Destroyers could have fielded the entire Federation fleet's worth of fighters.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-20 12:12pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:Is it just me, or is that thing damn ugly?
All I know is secondhand descriptions on the board about four of them taking out a Cardassian Galor.

That would be "Sacrifice of Angels".

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-20 12:12pm

The Tac-Fighter has at least 6 weapon hard points. Although I think it actualy has 8 bassed on this picture.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans ... er-fsr.gif

That makes 3 in each wing and 2 in the nose.

The very first time we saw the Tac-Fighter we saw that it was armed with some sort of pulse phaser (different from later versions) in the wings. One in each wing. This was sufficent to knock around a Runabout fairly easily. One of the nose weapon mounts was armed with a beam phaser and one armed with a micro torpedo launcher.

By the time of the Dominion war the Federation had started mass producing Tac-Fighters. They were equiped with improved Pulse Phasers (one each wing) as well as micro torpedo launchers (one each wing). The nose weapon mounts were equiped with beam phasers.

This makes the Tac-Fighter very flexible. According to the Sacrafice Angels novelization a quantum torpedo launcher can be added (fired at much closer range and lower speeds then starships manage of course) and it can hold 2-4 torpedoes. I'm not exactly sure where the Tac-Fighter could mount such a launcher. The wings have to fold up for the thing to land and a launcher on its belly would make it impossible for the landing struts to reach the ground.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-20 12:15pm

Praxis wrote:That's the one from Sacrifice of Angels. They damage several Galor's WITHOUT support from capital ships, then cause the Cardassian oversized Hideki fighters to break formation and chase them off, then the capital ships move through.

Cardy and Dominion ships seem to have a weakness against fighters- they can't seem to hit them, and the pulse phasers tear right through their shields really quickly. I saw several Galor's on fire.

The Federation seems to be the only force capable of accuracy to hit fighters reliably. Because of this they can use fighters against their enemies and their enemies can't use them against the Federation. BTW, that burning Galor was damaged by micro torpedoes, not PPCs.

However, there weren't that many fighters. A couple Star Destroyers could have fielded the entire Federation fleet's worth of fighters.

Assumption. We never see more then tidbits of the battle. For all we know they had more Tac-Fighters attacking elsewhere.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-09-20 12:35pm

Alyeska wrote:Assumption. We never see more then tidbits of the battle. For all we know they had more Tac-Fighters attacking elsewhere.

Indeed, just as we only saw the Dominion War through the lens of DS9.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2004-09-20 12:36pm

Hmm. Yeah, that is ugly. Who'd've guessed, a Federation design that puts function over form. I like it.

Looks like it's warp-capable judging from what appears to be (internal) warp engines alongside the cockpit. So it's (possibly) warp capable, decently well-armed...is the cockpit single-person?

I wouldn't want to take a long trip in one from the looks of it, but I wouldn't want to take a long trip in an X-wing either. Not a bad design if Alyeska's right about it's armament hardpoints.

I can see how they'd be useful given that most of their enemies tend to go for fixed-axis weapons mounts--swarming, for example, a Romulan Warbird would be fairly easy if their guns have the firepower to handle the Warbird's shields.

If it is warp-capable, I wonder what the maximum warp on one of those is...you could use a carrier to bring them in close to their target, then let them warp in the rest of the way on their own, keeping the carrier out of the fighting.

Beam phasers seem fairly pointless on one, given that pulse phasers seem to be more powerful for the same mass, though energy consumption might be an issue.

Wonder if you could mount a beam phaser in the rear arc and just let the computer target it. You probably wouldn't hit anything manueverable, but you could get one last swipe in after a strafing run on a bigger ship and it might keep potential enemy fighter-craft on their toes.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-09-20 12:38pm

Given that we never saw a specialized fighter carrier or shuttle bay, and that the design is shared with the Maquis ships, we have to asssume that they are indeed warp capable.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-20 12:51pm

The Tac-Fighter is indeed warp capable. However that doesn't mean it has incredible range or speed. For whatever reason in Trek the size of the ship doesn't make warp faster, rather warp mechanics. The Tac-Fighter should have terrible mechanics because its primary function (fighting) does not allow. That means speed and range are going to be low. Probably enough for it to make tactical jumps with the fleet.

Its entirely likely these Tac-Fighters came from a base or their carrier vessels launched them prior to the attack and they warped in.

Another issue is that of Akira's and Galaxy's launching them. There is unoffical evidence Akira's have impressive hanger bays and there is circumstansial evidence the Galaxy class (at least some models) had their shuttle bays enlarged.

http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GPeregrine3.jpg

You can see the warp engines as well as how the nose turret can traverse fire.

http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GPeregrine4.jpg

Firing from the wing hardpoints. Well this presents a problem. The weapon fire came from a different location then the hardpoints. IMO we should write that off as a VFX error because we've seen two different types of weapons come from the wings of the same fighters and the hardpoints I showed in the picture fit perfectly.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-20 01:17pm

What's the target in the second one? It looks like a Federation shuttle or runabout. What were the circumstances for them to be firing on their own ships?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-09-20 01:18pm

Rogue 9 wrote:What's the target in the second one? It looks like a Federation shuttle or runabout. What were the circumstances for them to be firing on their own ships?

The figther or the Runaboat is Maquis

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-09-20 01:18pm

It's possible that the Akira-class serves as a carrier. What works against this theory, at least in terms of visual evidence, Favor the Bold, when we saw the Fed fleet depart Starbase 175 and then later on route ot the Bajoran system. Tac Fighters can clearly been seen flying in formation in both cases.

It really does come down to their warp abilities, which of course have never been revealed and is therefore left up to us to speculate upon.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-20 02:51pm

They do have warp drives, so thats not speculation.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-09-20 03:01pm

Alyeska wrote:They do have warp drives, so thats not speculation.

I meant their average/top speed at Warp (it's got to be high enough to keep up with the Defiant and the rest of the fleet in Favor the Bold).

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-09-20 04:29pm

Is a Peregrine and a tac-fighter the same? I thought I remembered something about Peregrines, or am I thinking of a different ship?

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-09-20 04:38pm

apocolypse wrote:Is a Peregrine and a tac-fighter the same? I thought I remembered something about Peregrines, or am I thinking of a different ship?

DITL states that is and I maintain a similar viewpoint.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-20 05:08pm

apocolypse wrote:Is a Peregrine and a tac-fighter the same? I thought I remembered something about Peregrines, or am I thinking of a different ship?

AFAIK, its the Peregrin Tactical Fighter.

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2004-09-20 05:53pm

JME2 wrote:
Alyeska wrote:They do have warp drives, so thats not speculation.
I meant their average/top speed at Warp (it's got to be high enough to keep up with the Defiant and the rest of the fleet in Favor the Bold).

I remember hearing that their speed is equal to a runabout but I think info was unofficial.

I have a sourcebook on the Dominion War from an old version of ST that stated a Tac fighters top speed was Warp 8. I think this is very much unofficial.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-20 08:05pm

Alyeska wrote:
Praxis wrote:That's the one from Sacrifice of Angels. They damage several Galor's WITHOUT support from capital ships, then cause the Cardassian oversized Hideki fighters to break formation and chase them off, then the capital ships move through.

Cardy and Dominion ships seem to have a weakness against fighters- they can't seem to hit them, and the pulse phasers tear right through their shields really quickly. I saw several Galor's on fire.
The Federation seems to be the only force capable of accuracy to hit fighters reliably. Because of this they can use fighters against their enemies and their enemies can't use them against the Federation. BTW, that burning Galor was damaged by micro torpedoes, not PPCs.

Really? I didn't see any ray effects that torpedoes usually have, and it was firing them rapidly.

However, there weren't that many fighters. A couple Star Destroyers could have fielded the entire Federation fleet's worth of fighters.
Assumption. We never see more then tidbits of the battle. For all we know they had more Tac-Fighters attacking elsewhere.

However, we did see that the fighters were only targetting the frontmost Galors, and we had a good view of the front of the fleet. Additionally, Dukat's monitors showed only a few Federation blips if I recall. I assume each blip was a squadron. Unless we assume that each blip represented over a hundred fighters, I think its safe to assume that the Federation didn't have any more than a couple hundred total.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-09-21 12:18am

Praxis wrote: However, we did see that the fighters were only targetting the frontmost Galors, and we had a good view of the front of the fleet. Additionally, Dukat's monitors showed only a few Federation blips if I recall. I assume each blip was a squadron. Unless we assume that each blip represented over a hundred fighters, I think its safe to assume that the Federation didn't have any more than a couple hundred total.

Not once in all of Star Trek has the entire Federation fleet been present in a battle, thus, I fail to see how you could make such a hasty conclusion.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-09-21 12:28am

And I point out that Damar says 'Capitan Sisko is persistent, thats the ninth wave of Fighters he's sent against us!". Each wave had at LEAST a squadrons worth of fighters, almost certinaly more from what we see in the later waves. So thats at least a good 108 fighters sent in.

Then the Cardasian attack ships (they are too big to call fighters) break formation and look like they open a hole in the Domininions lines. Of course its a trap, but Sisko has the Galaxy wings pin down the shisp that were set to swing in and close the hole.

Also Sisko comments 'Order fighter squadrons six seven and eight to regroup at-' after they punch through, so we could be looking at 12+ squadrons.

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