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http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=52675And on that note, if you feel the irresistable need to comment, YT's suggested someone make a comment thread to keep ours "clean". Naturally, this will be up to the discretion of the moderators, and interested parties.
This would make sense if they did it right away. If you're going to give your enemy years to prepare, with them knowing you'll likely attack again, you're going to need more forces, since they'll be ready for you.-The Borg send another cube in FC. Given the extremely implausible nature of how the first cube was lost, sending another single cube makes sense. The ease by which the first cube dealt with previous forces suggests even stronger forces could be safely dealt with by a single cube. And they were(Starfleet forces were dropping like flies), right up until the cube virtually entered Earth orbit.
Wow...the Borg have dozens of cubes constantly going through this transwarp hub daily, and one of the conduits goes STRAIGHT to Earth, and they never bothered using it?Fast forward to STVOY "Endgame", and we find out the Borg have created a Transwarp conduit less than a lightyear from Earth. Starfleet forces would only be given minutes warning time, and deploying multiple vessels virtually at Earth's doorstep would be exceedingly easy. It never happened, thanks to Voyager's time travel copout, and the Borg probably would not have initiated this attack any time soon regardless (recovering from the massive Species 8472 war would take priority over assimilating a low priority target halfway across the Milky Way galaxy)
The bumbling first Cylons.Dennis Toy wrote:Even the damn Cylons put together a better genocide than the Borg ever managed. That says volumes.
when you are talking about the cyclons, are you talking about the humanized ones or the 70's version
It was a fluke, but it was by no means plausible that tactical projections show a Federation slaughter. Hanson's idiotic choice of spreading out the fleet light years away from earth instead of concentrating the deployment in Earth orbit shows that the Borg were not the only ones who's tactical projections were flawed. In "Emmisary" we are shown a snippet of the battle - the only canon example - and what we are shown is a SF that doesn't concentrate its forces, and willingly gives the advantage of surprise and mobility to the Borg. (by not planning the defence closer to home, where the Borg's trajectory would be apparent and easily counterable, while at the same time limiting the Borg's mobility by forcing them to approach on that trajectory.)Robert Walper wrote:-The Borg send one cube (STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"), which by all plausible tactical projections would've slaughtered the Federation. The Borg lost it by what most rational persons would conclude was a fluke, or at best an extremely unlikely scenario. You don't go betting on a boxer because there's the possibility the other will slip and knock himself out, regardless of the fact that this *can* happen. The BoBW events are even far more far fetched to go basing tactical projections on.
If BOBW was played out competently then the threat assessment represented by a single Borg cube would be rediculously low. Similarly, the Borg threat assessment would be haphazard at best - given that it's simple good strategy to endeavour to outnumber the opponent. Relying on 'adaption' shields or whatever is also reckless. If one borg cube has a good chance at scything through Starfleet defences then two borg cubes have a BETTER chance. If the Borg possess thousands of cubes then sending off two or three ought to be enough to deal with the Federation.-The Borg send another cube in FC. Given the extremely implausible nature of how the first cube was lost, sending another single cube makes sense. The ease by which the first cube dealt with previous forces suggests even stronger forces could be safely dealt with by a single cube. And they were(Starfleet forces were dropping like flies), right up until the cube virtually entered Earth orbit.
No problem. I've been in debates before when I can't debate the original poster because a bunch of bothersome idiots are running around making comments and messing up the original thread, and know how you feelRobert Walper wrote:I was about to reply to several posts here, but then realized YT can go through them and compose them into a reply himself.
BTW, thanks for keeping the original thread clean guys. Should help both parties keep track of arguements and points, one of the pitfalls of multiple posters and redundant replies.
STVOY "Dark Frontier"Jon wrote:There's an episode of Voyager, where the Queen has Seven by her side as they oversee the assimilation of a world,
Species 10026. Aren't I sick?she comments on the species having some technology they want but not being anything 'special' in terms of how advanced they are etc...
Correction. Two cubes, one Diamond class, where the Queen and Seven were.we see a shot of the planet and there are many cubes and spheres in orbit,
Actually, the enemy mustered 39 starships to attack the Borg vessels. Apparently they were handled rather easily. It was only after the enemy fleet was decimated that the one cube tractored the escaping spacecraft, after they noticed it. Seven had tried to mask it's presence earlier and save the individuals onboard it. They did escape, but only because Seven pleaded to the Queen to let them go. Surprisingly she did let them go, which I found almost more omnious then simply assimilating them.they send two cubes just to destroy a single escaping shuttlecraft. There were seemingly no enemy starships in orbit or resisting the assimilation.
Here's a question: If Picard new of a basic, static design flaw in Borg cubes, why didn't he submit this to Starfleet? Obviously, said design flaw doesn't exist, and what Picard took advantage of with his unique insight was a weakened portion of the cube that existed simply because it had sustained battle damage. After all, I don't think anyone would suggest Borg renegeration and real time repairs are perfect. There's bound to be some repairs and regeneration that will compromise some of the cube's systems and redundancy. The fact this weak spot registered as a "non critical" system not worth targetting is worth noting.Yet against the Federation, whom after assimilating Picard they should know all about, they again send a single cube knowing that a sizeable fleet is capable of destroying one of their vessels, knowing that Picard might have some knowledge of their structural designs and so on.
Apparently the Collective's tactical projections suggested a single cube should be sufficient to conquer the Federation, even in a stronger state of affairs. We know the BoBW events certainly supported that assumption. A single cube was able to dust forty Starfleet ships without breaking a sweat.Worse still, they send a single cube with one of their Queens on board, no escort or nothing, damn- with the resources the Borg apparently have you'd send an armada just because you could.
Is that why they're ranging so far away from their base of operations?Walper wrote:Let's not forget the Borg most certainly consider the Federation a low priority target.
Is that why they build 27km^3 ships to ensure incredible redundancy?And asserting the Borg can send several dozen Borg cubes with "no effect on their resources whatsoever" is a No Limits Fallacy. Sending that many vessels most certainly doesn't seem beyond their capability, but the Borg strive for, above all else, efficency.
In the interests of efficiency, the Borg decided that they could establish a new base of operations on the opposite side of the galaxy with one ship. THAT is incompetance.Efficiency and redundancy are two objectives that are difficult to combine. In the interests of efficiency, the Borg could easily have determined the margin for error/failure as acceptable, and sent only one vessel.
The Rebels pose a threat to the Empire, the Federation don’t pose a threat to the Borg.Praxis wrote:A better analogy would be if the Empire sent one ISD to destroy a Rebel base, and the ISD was damaged in the attack (as the cube was damaged at Wolf 359, but regenerated afterward), but a Rebel Saboteur blew it up.
Would the Empire sit, give the Rebels a few years to prepare, and send ONE Star Destroyer? NO! They would IMMEDIATELY hit it with another ISD, or more likely, two. Yet the Borg gave the Federation plenty of time (years) to prepare, then sent the same amount of force as last time, which got it's rear handed to itself.
What does the Borg want?After all, the first cube got the drop on the Federation- they were NOT prepared. By the time of the second cube, they had spent YEARS preparing, building ships like the Defiant, etc.
Yes, now you get it.Seriously, all they had to do was sent TWO of the several cubes we saw defending and travelling through the transwarp hub through that conduit, and Earth would be gone. Did they? No. They were giving humans yet ANOTHER few years to prepare.
Ah, so you're suggesting that the research capabilities of the Federation are far beyond the Borg, so they were getting the Federation to do research so they could steal it?Gustav32Vasa wrote:Yes, now you get it.Seriously, all they had to do was sent TWO of the several cubes we saw defending and travelling through the transwarp hub through that conduit, and Earth would be gone. Did they? No. They were giving humans yet ANOTHER few years to prepare.
The humanoid "schematic" of the Borg Queen from STVOY "Dark Frontier" was originally assimilated from Species 125. Obviously the Borg Collective assimilates humanoids as a "design specification" for Borg Queens. According the Borg Queen in FC, she wanted a "counterpart", an "equal". This suggests Picard was in fact being prepared as another version of the "Borg Queen", although I doubt he would be called a "queen".Jon wrote:Referring to Walpers latest post, I think he's right in that the importance of the 'Queen' is overestimated... there is no heiracrhy within the borg, 'she' isn't a Queen in the sense we would be used to, but simply a manifestation of the collective mind, per se. It would make sense that they then are 'expendable' or constructed in order to act as a intermediate to speak with, but in turn if one already existed on the WOLF 359 cube, why did they have to create Locutus?
When you take into account the fact Picard's assimilation was significantly different than the typical assimilations we've seen, that adds even further credibility.