Deep Space 9 vs a Borg cube

[Sarevok]

A Borg cube is detected moving towards the system of Bajor. The Federation scrambles starships to intercept it but they fail to match the speed of Borg transwarp propulsion. Only Deep Space 9 stands between the Cube and the assimilation of planet Bajor. Reinforcements are a day away. Can Deep Space 9 hold out for that long ?

[Superman]

Which era of Borg?

BoBW Borg: DS9 is promptly carved up and destroyed.

Voyager Borg: O'Brien rigs up an enhanced phaser beam and promptly destroys the Borg.

[Jawawithagun]

The Borg forget to brake in time and the station is reduced to a dent in their front bumper?

[Gustav32Vasa]

The station is either destroyed or the Borg ignore it and heads directly for Bajor.

[JME2]

The Borg forget to brake in time and the station is reduced to a dent in their front bumper?

[Robert Walper]

A Borg cube is detected moving towards the system of Bajor. The Federation scrambles starships to intercept it but they fail to match the speed of Borg transwarp propulsion. Only Deep Space 9 stands between the Cube and the assimilation of planet Bajor. Reinforcements are a day away. Can Deep Space 9 hold out for that long ?

Is this war armed Ds9 or not? If not, DS9 would fall faster than the sensors operaters could've announced the presence of the cube.

Even DS9 fully upgraded with Dominion era weapons and shielding, I suspect DS9 would fall rather quickly. A Borg cube can also engage enemy fleets, and win. Also, the cube would have only one target to focus firepower on as opposed to dozens or hundreds like in BOBW or FC.

[Crazedwraith]

does DS9 get the Defiant and its runabout as well ? If so they'd properly....just die a little later.

The Cube takes it, though I beleive DS9 fully armed would give it a run for its money.

[Dark Primus]

I give this to the Borg cube. My opinion is the DS9 has 30% chance of taking the cube out included the Defiant and the Runabouts.

[Solauren]

Hmmm, ya know, I hate to be the 'nay-sayer', but the Borg cube doesn't have as high a chance as you think.

DS9 was able to hold off an assault by the Dominion fleet, and deal them a fair amount of damage in the process.

How many guns are on DS9? Dozens? Hundreds?

Not saying the Borg cube wouldn't mash DS9 in the end, just DS9 has the shielding and firepower to hold out for a while.

However, unless DS9 has weapon NUMBERS (as in emplacements) comparable to a Star Destroyer, it's going down.


Now, if you want to take in other local factors, and not just a straight 'blast away fight'

like the Prophets would like Sisko be assimilated.....

If Sisko could somehow bring the wormhole to there attention, say by having a runabout fly into it, I'm pretty sure a stable wormhole would draw there attention. They go in to it, and the Prophets deal with them.

[JME2]

It's not canon, but DITL places DS9's aramaent at:

6 x Type XI phaser banks
63 x Type X phaser arrays, total output 1,250,000 TeraWatts
66 x Pulse fire photon torpedo tube

Also, according to Weyoun, the station was able to destroy over 50 Jem'Hadar/Cardasssian ships before being boarded.

That being said, the Borg cube has some trouble, but will be able to take down the station.

[RedImperator]

A Borg cube can also engage enemy fleets, and win. Also, the cube would have only one target to focus firepower on as opposed to dozens or hundreds like in BOBW or FC.

That goes both ways, if DS9 is fully armed.

[Solauren]

It's not canon, but DITL places DS9's aramaent at:

6 x Type XI phaser banks
63 x Type X phaser arrays, total output 1,250,000 TeraWatts
66 x Pulse fire photon torpedo tube

That output from ditl.org or the DS9 tech journal?

[JME2]

It's not canon, but DITL places DS9's aramaent at:

6 x Type XI phaser banks
63 x Type X phaser arrays, total output 1,250,000 TeraWatts
66 x Pulse fire photon torpedo tube

That output from ditl.org or the DS9 tech journal?

The former; I don't have my copy of the DS9TM on me.

[Praxis]

Er, to contradict the above post...

The BOBW cube took out 40 Federation ships, then got whooped by a single Galaxy class.

However, Deep Space Nine took out FIFTY Dominion ships (superior to Federation ships, generally), despite being attacked by a whole heckofalot of them AND trying to lay a minefield at the same time.

Not only that, but considering DS9's accuracy (they miss more than they hit), they'd probably do WAY better against a cube than the smaller Dominion ships.

The cube might win (maybe) but it would be as overwhelmingly powerful as you seem to think.

Voyager cube would get nuked, of course.

[seanrobertson]

Er, to contradict the above post...

The BOBW cube took out 40 Federation ships, then got whooped by a single Galaxy class.

Not in a straight-up fight, it didn't. As I recall, after the Enterprise's weapons proved totally ineffective, Riker was a split-second from sacrificing the ship in a ramming maneuver.

However, Deep Space Nine took out FIFTY Dominion ships (superior to Federation ships, generally), despite being attacked by a whole heckofalot of them AND trying to lay a minefield at the same time.

Hmm...I dunno about either claim. DS9 itself wasn't that occupied with the minefield; we only saw them provide limited cover fire for Defiant, perhaps to tune of 8 torpedoes or so total. We certainly had no indication that such severely curtailed the station's firepower against the Dominion fleet.

Also, the fleet attacking DS9 was, as you know, comprised of Jem'Hadar and Cardassian warships. Cardassian ships are most assuredly not superior to Federation counterparts (ref. "The Wounded," "Defiant"). For that matter, the bulk of Jem'Hadar forces--those little bugs--are inferior as well. We really have no idea how the battlecruisers stack up.

Not only that, but considering DS9's accuracy (they miss more than they hit), they'd probably do WAY better against a cube than the smaller Dominion ships.

Not necessarily. The Dominion fleet surrounded the station, so the latter could bring most or all of its firepower to bear against them.

By contrast, the cube would likely do as it always does: park itself at PBR, limiting not only its exposure to the no. of firing arcs but, potentially, only a fraction of the station's total phaser firepower as the battle wore on. (Once DS9's shields were depleted and the Borg ship inched ever closer, the threat oft attributed to close proximity photorp detonations could see them used sparingly if at all. The backwash from firing a large spread at a target a kilometer or less distant could prove almost as dangerous as the cube's own attack. (Though I expect DS9's CO would use the torpedoes in any case, that'd just be another second or few sooner the station would succumb to the cube.))

But on those counts I digress. My point's simply this: the station's tough, but it's designed to fend off opponents attacking from all quarters. A big ship coming from one direction, focusing on only one of the station's shield sections and exposed to a limited no. of its total weapons complement is tackling a rather different animal.

The cube might win (maybe) but it would be as overwhelmingly powerful as you seem to think.

Voyager cube would get nuked, of course.

Why would a VGR cube get nuked?

Frankly, this "VGR Borg were pussified!" stuff has become a geniune brain bug. While it is true the Borg were written with ever-increasing stupidity (though we should face facts, here: they were pretty damn dumb to begin with ), did their ships' weapons, shields and so on become magnitudes weaker?

The answer is a flat no. Large Borg ships like spheres and cubes routinely and, several times, very decisively, whipped VGR's ass. The only ship that seemed to struggle with VGR at all, a "Class 4 Tactical Cube," still handily pasted her ("Unimatrix Zero"). Moreover, we have no idea how that ship compared to standard cubes, so it's a poor means by which to compare TNG to VGR Borg in the first place.

*crosses fingers, hoping no one will bring up the obviously illicit "Endgame" VGR tech in a misguided effort to nitpick the above*

[Gandalf]

DS9 may have much in the way of phaser arrays and such, but how many can actually fire at the cube at one time. The reason they were able to kick so much ass against the Dominion was that the Dominion fleet was on all sides of the station.

[Sea Skimmer]

DS9 is suppose to be able to fight a 50 ship fleet with its weapons upgrades IIRC, and we saw a Borg cube slice through 39 Federation ships like butter. I doubt DS9 would be victorious, espically if it loses shielding and is swarmed by Borg beam overs.

[Stofsk]

DS9 may have much in the way of phaser arrays and such, but how many can actually fire at the cube at one time. The reason they were able to kick so much ass against the Dominion was that the Dominion fleet was on all sides of the station.

Were they? I seem to recall both the Dominion AND Klingon fleets attacking from one direction ONLY.

[TheDarkling]

DS9 is suppose to be able to fight a 50 ship fleet with its weapons upgrades IIRC, and we saw a Borg cube slice through 39 Federation ships like butter. I doubt DS9 would be victorious, espically if it loses shielding and is swarmed by Borg beam overs.

They destroyed 50 ships when the Dominion took the station so the fleet must have been larger (by a fair margin).
Not that I favour DS9 but a 50 ship fleet would get smashed if it went up against the station.

[Gandalf]

DS9 may have much in the way of phaser arrays and such, but how many can actually fire at the cube at one time. The reason they were able to kick so much ass against the Dominion was that the Dominion fleet was on all sides of the station.

Were they? I seem to recall both the Dominion AND Klingon fleets attacking from one direction ONLY.

They came from one side yes. But they made runs on across the station. As they flew across it they became exposed to various weapons arcs on the other side.

[JME2]

DS9 may have much in the way of phaser arrays and such, but how many can actually fire at the cube at one time. The reason they were able to kick so much ass against the Dominion was that the Dominion fleet was on all sides of the station.

Were they? I seem to recall both the Dominion AND Klingon fleets attacking from one direction ONLY.

They came from one side yes. But they made runs on across the station. As they flew across it they became exposed to various weapons arcs on the other side.

Yeah; just look at the shot of the three Jemmies getting blown up prior to when it focuses on the mine-laying Defiant and the attack on the "tough little ship".

[Praxis]

Not in a straight-up fight, it didn't. As I recall, after the Enterprise's weapons proved totally ineffective, Riker was a split-second from sacrificing the ship in a ramming maneuver.

Actually, if I recall correctly the cube retreated (sorta- it retreated straight toward Earth). The Enterprise used it's little antimatter trick, remember?

Hmm...I dunno about either claim. DS9 itself wasn't that occupied with the minefield; we only saw them provide limited cover fire for Defiant, perhaps to tune of 8 torpedoes or so total. We certainly had no indication that such severely curtailed the station's firepower against the Dominion fleet.

We saw several times they diverted firepower to cover the Defiant. Furthermore, the Defiant would be there to defend the station in the scenario above, would it not?
DS9 was occupied with defending the ship laying the minefield.

Not necessarily. The Dominion fleet surrounded the station, so the latter could bring most or all of its firepower to bear against them.

While they did surround the station, the station could get the same effect by rotating to put the Cube above it. Will the Borg be smart (and maneuverable- those cubes are BIG) enough to move?

By contrast, the cube would likely do as it always does: park itself at PBR, limiting not only its exposure to the no. of firing arcs but, potentially, only a fraction of the station's total phaser firepower as the battle wore on. (Once DS9's shields were depleted and the Borg ship inched ever closer, the threat oft attributed to close proximity photorp detonations could see them used sparingly if at all. The backwash from firing a large spread at a target a kilometer or less distant could prove almost as dangerous as the cube's own attack. (Though I expect DS9's CO would use the torpedoes in any case, that'd just be another second or few sooner the station would succumb to the cube.))

And those rapid-fire torp launchers pop out and start slamming the cube all over. Remember the fire at the Negh'var? 9 shots fired, only 2 hit. Against a cube, all nine would hit easily.

[Gandalf]

Not in a straight-up fight, it didn't. As I recall, after the Enterprise's weapons proved totally ineffective, Riker was a split-second from sacrificing the ship in a ramming maneuver.

Actually, if I recall correctly the cube retreated (sorta- it retreated straight toward Earth). The Enterprise used it's little antimatter trick, remember?

I thought the anti-matter spread was to distract the cube while Worf/Data went on a rescue mission?

Hmm...I dunno about either claim. DS9 itself wasn't that occupied with the minefield; we only saw them provide limited cover fire for Defiant, perhaps to tune of 8 torpedoes or so total. We certainly had no indication that such severely curtailed the station's firepower against the Dominion fleet.

We saw several times they diverted firepower to cover the Defiant. Furthermore, the Defiant would be there to defend the station in the scenario above, would it not?
DS9 was occupied with defending the ship laying the minefield.

Actually, we see the Jem' Hadar attack the Defiant twice. The first time DS9 sends a few torpedoes and takes them out. The second time the Rotarran shows up.

Not necessarily. The Dominion fleet surrounded the station, so the latter could bring most or all of its firepower to bear against them.

While they did surround the station, the station could get the same effect by rotating to put the Cube above it. Will the Borg be smart (and maneuverable- those cubes are BIG) enough to move?

The station theoretically could, but have we seen them rotate on that axis before? The only maneuvering thrusters I've seen have been on the docking ring.

By contrast, the cube would likely do as it always does: park itself at PBR, limiting not only its exposure to the no. of firing arcs but, potentially, only a fraction of the station's total phaser firepower as the battle wore on. (Once DS9's shields were depleted and the Borg ship inched ever closer, the threat oft attributed to close proximity photorp detonations could see them used sparingly if at all. The backwash from firing a large spread at a target a kilometer or less distant could prove almost as dangerous as the cube's own attack. (Though I expect DS9's CO would use the torpedoes in any case, that'd just be another second or few sooner the station would succumb to the cube.))

And those rapid-fire torp launchers pop out and start slamming the cube all over. Remember the fire at the Negh'var? 9 shots fired, only 2 hit. Against a cube, all nine would hit easily.

But there's a few issues with that. The first one being the Borg adapting. And we've also seen Cubes rotate with some speed. This would mean they'd be able to absorb more fire than usual.

[Praxis]

I thought the anti-matter spread was to distract the cube while Worf/Data went on a rescue mission?

It distracted it EXTREMELY well. Enough that it was having a hard time attacking both peices of the ship at once.

Actually, we see the Jem' Hadar attack the Defiant twice. The first time DS9 sends a few torpedoes and takes them out. The second time the Rotarran shows up.

Right, but didn't the dialog imply that DS9 would cover for the Defiant during the battle? There were plenty of in between scenes during which more Jem Hadar attacked.

Or do you honestly think that with the whole point of the attack being to stop the minefield being built, they only attacked the Defiant with 6 fighters?

The station theoretically could, but have we seen them rotate on that axis before? The only maneuvering thrusters I've seen have been on the docking ring.

I'm not really sure. I seem to remember the station turning, but I can't supply a reference.

But there's a few issues with that. The first one being the Borg adapting. And we've also seen Cubes rotate with some speed. This would mean they'd be able to absorb more fire than usual.

Oh, BTW, I didn't respond to what you said about VOY pussification because I was in a rush to type it. I'll include it in my response to this.

In Voyager, Borg adaptation...sucks. The Federation is constantly outrunning it by rotating phaser frequencies and torpedo frequencies, finding tricks to beam stuff through their shields, etc, etc. Which means vs a Voyager cube, DS9 will find ways to keep them from adapting.

Vs a BOBW cube though, DS9 would have serious trouble with adaptation. While DS9 would (in my opinion, judging from observed firepower) outgun the cube, the adaptation would SEVERELY reduce the effectiveness. While sheer firepower can eventually overcome adaptation, the Borg would probably carve up DS9 in that time (remember in Q-Who? The torpedoes did almost nothing).

Remember, the cube has weak armor. In Q-Who, the Enterprise's phasers blast massive craters in the cube, craters the size of the Enterprise. Then when they adapt they do almost nothing. It's generally assumed that photons are more powerful than phasers (also stated in the official TM's), so going on that assumption, DS9's five thousand torpedoes shouldn't have a problem carving a cube if it's not able to adapt in time.

So the crunch is adaptation. If DS9 is able to overcome the adaptation disadvantage, it smashes the cube. If it is not, it's shots won't have enough effect on the cube to destroy it before it is destroyed itself.

[Sarevok]

Well besides the Dominion war incident DS9 also took on a large Klingon fleet in Way of the Warrior. Bird of Preys are lethal as seen in Generations and Rascals. So I think DS9 would be able to hold out for sometime before losing shields and being boarded.